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#442338 - 12/11/17 02:30 AM to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question
john smies Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1384
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.

It is with some hesitation that I breach this subject again, after all this is the ARRANGER forum. Operative words here are and will be "arrange", "tweak", "gigging" and "songstyles ".

In light of the current discussion on the Roland EA7 thread I thought it might be interesting to share my views on the subject and see what yours are.Also in view of the current Genos hype.
Don't get me wrong, I briefly played the Genos and it is absolutely topclass, though shamefully overpriced. It is however not really my cup of tea probably because I have been biased towards Korg for the last 20 years.

So far the consensus between these two brands has always been the fact that Korg is more like having a real band supporting you and Yamaha is so smooth and perfect as if having finished a CD yourself ( if and when recorded).

With the current top arrangers Ketron SD9, Korg PA4X and the Genos there is no accounting for tastes. However if it comes to
ARRANGING it is my belief that well over 75% of Yamaha players, in particular the non gigging ones, are more or less satisfied what the manufacturer has concocted as far as arrangments go. The Songlist is adequately sufficient to them and on top of that they have a gamut of Songstyles. In fact one might conclude that they only use the keyboard part of the arranger keyboard whereas the actual arranging has been left to the manufacturer.

Korg players by contrast, though of course not all of them have less of a tendendy to lean to songstyles and factory arrangements and set themselves more to tweaking and using onboard styles for the benefit of recording or performing wellknown pop classics without the actual use of the exact songstyles.

As far as in depth arranging and tweaking goes again there is a substantial difference between the gigging and non gigging community, counting myself among the latter.
Those gigging most of the times lean very heavily on a song being reproduced and recognisable to their audiences. Most of the times they will have either a songstyle (complete copy) or a style that has been tweaked to get as close as possible to the songstyle. Although there is room for different arrangements they cannot stray too far from the beaten track for fear of their songs not being recognised or appreciated.

Those using the arranger keyboard at home without gigging either opt for the 'easy way out' ( read: using the songbooks etc. provided by the manufacturer) or they go for intensive tweaking and arranging, like I used to do. ( and will do given the chances). By doing so they discover, as Donny pointed out elsewhere the real depth and possibilities of their own arranger keyboard and in the process become more creative and start arranging themselves.Do not get me wrong , I am not saying that one thing is better than the other. The performer on stage has to entertain the audience and make sure he sounds good, songstyles or no songstyles, tweaking or no tweaking. But those who have time on their hands and want to get beyond that what is on offer by the manufacturer will like to delve deeper.

As to myself, some of you know I have programmed, tweaked and arranged quite a bit on the Korgs over the last 15 years, something which was until recently not possible on the Yamahas.
To me the added value of any arranger keyboard has been the opportunity to arrange things your way and thus, hopefully, surprise people from time to time.By way of illustration, if you check the famous song "Streets of London" by Ralph McTell on youtube and then check my version of it ( incidentally recorded on the Korg PA80 way back when) you will understand my point of reasoning.

In conclusion , I am still waiting for the PA1000 to arrive as is Uncle Dave, already knowing that I will be upset (yet again) for Korg having abandoned the good old Performances. They were ever so handy for those arranging and tweaking in depth and not gigging................alas..............

Best wishes to all of you for Christmas and I hope 2018 will bring health, prosperity , wisdom and lots and lots of good music.....on whichever instrument smile smile smile

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#442347 - 12/11/17 04:48 AM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Beautifully written John. Since I now a home player I could not agree more. I have always tried to go deeper in my work, but not as deep as I am going now.

Merry Christmas and a fantastic healthy New Year to all.
John C.

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#442349 - 12/11/17 07:17 AM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
Riceroni9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 1298
Loc: TX, USA
Hi John:

I spend more time arranging than recording after I've written an original song and melody. Because I don't play well, arthritic hands, I look for styles that will enhance the intro, breaks and outro of my songs. Then I'll spend hours "arranging" the instruments (Yamaha calls them voices), then varying the volume of each... sometimes changing out the instrument(s) for others, adjusting the tempo... and, above all, making a written record of all the settings. Yes, I save the settings in the memory banks but eventually lose or over-write a location.

We all have our favorite brand of keyboard and I don't care to learn a new system but have owned a Mini-Korg and really liked it... but Yamaha's new models are fairly easy to learn and the layouts don't vary much.

Having the ability to create a backing for a song with an arranger (no matter what brand) is a Godsend.

Merry Christmas, ----Dave Rice

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#442350 - 12/11/17 07:25 AM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
shueymusic Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/11
Posts: 648
Loc: Lebanon, PA
Since 1986 (I was 13)... I have arranged my own song to sing or play trumpet to... or to play a melody overtop of.

I did a track for Somewhere Over the Rainbow for a singing competition my wife competed in. I had a PSR-S900 but chose to sequence my own “arrangment” on the Yamaha Motif XF. One of the judges knew me as a local musician. He came up to me after her performance and said... where did you get that arrangement? Is there a new Broadway version of the Wizard of Oz coming out soon? I said... no new production, it was just me and 4-5 hours of arranging time! Well, she won the competition because of her voice... but we were both proud of the arrangement!!

https://youtu.be/RRdYGfQ1DMI

I now use an arranger because I can launch WAV or MP3 files from old keyboards or computer mix downs. I have high quality sounds on an arranger. I also have everything in front of me when performing as a solo or a duo. Volume control of the arrangement and the sound I use on top of the track.

Genos would give me more arranging tools... newer FX and drum sounds to create arrangements to use when I gig.

Merry Christmas to all!
_________________________
~Johnathan
"The Shueys"
www.shueymusic.com
Yamaha Genos - RCF M20x - RCF HD10A (Stereo) - Jupiter Pocket Trumpet - Sennheiser e935 - Neumann KMS-104 plus-N

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#442351 - 12/11/17 07:30 AM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
John,
I could not have said it better myself.
In my case... I have always been a home organ player and want as much HELP so to speak to sound good as I can get....hence the Arranger is best for me. Some people have natural talents while I can learn to play songs and do so pretty well, I have many other hobbies to spend time on. Also, the Yamaha sounds and styles are I think better for the kind of music I like and my playing style. I do not sing at all so the instrument is THE sound in the total performance...hence I am very critical of especially orchestral sounds. I had a Korg PA2XPRO and a T2 before...both were good. The Korg had MANY issues with sound quality (I sent them a 3 page document outlining all of the issues, never heard back),,,I suppose there fixed now. The Yamaha always had a sweeter..smoother sound and most instruments were done well. And the styles seem to suit my music better (lots available too).
So all that said...I am looking to get a Yamaha soon (nothing now)...maybe a PSR-s970 or a used T5 (Genos maybe someday).

I love music and want to play all the stuff I enjoy most.

At 69 yrsold...I also need something to keep the old memory working!
_________________________
Lee S.

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#442352 - 12/11/17 07:36 AM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Sorry...double post


Edited by leeboy (12/11/17 11:04 AM)
_________________________
Lee S.

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#442362 - 12/11/17 11:37 AM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
synerjim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 526
Loc: CA
Thanks Jonathan for your wife's youtube link. Awesome performance!
_________________________
Jim

SD90,Korg I3, KMA Liverpool,TC Helicon Play Electric, Fender Sonoran Guitar, vArranger, Bose S1 Pros, Bose L1 Compact, Aiwa Exos-9

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#442371 - 12/11/17 02:31 PM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
MusicalMemories Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 632
Loc: Arbroath,Angus,Scotland
I've just got a Pa700 and Tyos 4 both of which I've had for about a month now. I mainly play I'm nursing homes. I agree with arranging your songs before performance either with registrations in the Korg Case Songbook entries or Keyboard Sets (A bit like the old Korg Performances). When you have so many styles and sounds at your fingertips I think arrangement is important.
_________________________
Gem Wk4, Solton Ms60, Technics Kn5000, Korg Pa50sd, Yamaha Psr k1, Tyros 4, Korg Pa700

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#442377 - 12/11/17 02:43 PM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Johnathan I now understand the secret of your success. The song is one of my favorites, the arrangement was fantastic, and as for the vocalist -- don't ever lose her; she's a keeper. (Smile)

You can't best a husband wife duo, John C.

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#442387 - 12/11/17 07:46 PM Re: to ARRANGE or not ARRANGE , THAT is the question [Re: john smies]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
I fully agree John...

And there is a reason those people inclined on arranging (and sound edditing/creating) turn to Korg. And thats because Korg arrangers come with all the tools to do so (except a piano roll editor) inside the instrument...

There is also different levels in his creative process. And my pa4x comes with all the tools for those different levels, from simply tweaking the volumes to replacing full tracks with self played backings. .. or from just edditing th ebasic parameters of a sound to creating whole new sounds from scratch.. and you don’t even need to load. New samples for that, as these imstruments come loaded with everything you need..

Now, that is said, i must admit that i prefer the sound of many of the Yamaha instruments.. and now with the Genos they made another step... but when i asked for these features that would allow for the same depth of arranging on Yamaha Genos as available on the pa4x, i was totally misunderstood by many of the as you said typical Yamaha arranger players.

I still think its a pitty..


I hope your pa1000 will soon arive, to challenge your creative processes...
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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