First off, tx to Yamaha for investing in an arranger, ...if I was on the Board of Directors...dont know if I would have voted in favor...

Arranger = questionable future in the U.S. anyway.

Genos advantage = 28(est)lbs...compared to Korg.

For an old guy like me, big deal.

Arrangers are a big deal everywhere outside of the US, the arranger is still yamaha’s biggest money maker worldwide

And the only reason Yamaha arrangers are not more wellknown in the US is because of Yamaha USA not promoting them at all..

...right after motorcycles, ATV's, boats, drums (acoustic and electronic), acoustic pianos, synths, workstations, etc., ect., ect. Yamaha is (according to Wiki) the worlds largest manufacturer. I kinda doubt if an arranger keyboard is their "biggest moneymaker worldwide".......but I could be wrong (and if I am, I apologize beforehand).

chas

My PA4X weighs 29.4 pounds. Not much difference.

Reasons to upgrade for me...

28 pounds with 76 keys
Easy to use sequencer... TBD
Ability to playback a WAV file
Playlist feature
Updated sounds and sound quality

Reasons for concern...

$$$$$$$$... I can sell off enough older keyboards to upgrade.
Extra size... especially the depth compared to the Pa4X.

On the radar... need to demo in person soon. Upgrade by January... maybe?!?

espesciall the $$$$$$$ is a concern... shelving out almost €3000 on top of an exchange deal involving my PA4x is a huge amount of money

Only worth it if its a huge step forward.. time will tell, 4th of November i will be at teh Peter Baartmans Demo, and a day later i should be able to get a closer look at a dealer in shop presentation.

I know... even though I could come up with the money, is it really worth it?!? I do 15-20 solo/duo shows per year. Maybe $2500-$3000 for the year. I make more doing sound gigs... less gigs but more money. I should invest in sound gear. But my creativity in music is calling me! I want something with great sounds that sounds great. Easy sequencer on board and great FX. I'm not asking for much.

YAMAHA GENOS VS TYROS 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WldfskpP7dA

YAMAHA GENOS VS TYROS 5 SOUND COMPARE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohl5170UGB4

Im confused why doesn't your Pa4x give you all you ever need?

Pa4X is wonderful! Does everything I need right now. I've been sequencing on a Motif since 2004. First the ES and then the XF. I enjoy the creation process and like to build my arrangements from the ground up.

When the Montage was introduced, I sold my Motif XF. They dropped the sequencer. That’s when I went PSR-S970... then the major upgrade to the 4X. Then, I've done 1 or 2 arrangements on the Pa4X... it works but it's a different process.

Genos would have to have all of my personal boxes checked off in order to go that direction. A nice 3-4 hour demo on my own and all the questions will be answered!

Why not just sequence in a DAW on your computer so much more powerful and versatile if that is how you create you music...

Most folks never even use the on board sequencer let alone master it..

Fact is there is no comparison.. The DAW does not allow the same flow.

Sequencing midi is data .. after you record the data you have to assign to sound.. also effects....

When you work with the onboard sequencer.. you are recording and hearing the actual sounds you want.. all edits are being recorded, and your thought process is in tact..

Working on the instrument that will be used for playback is the best solution..

System exclusive is also recorded without surprises...

When we have a good onboard sequencer and know how to use it (few people do), and it becomes second nature... it is the only way to work ...
Sure the DAW is nice overall but it is not better or faster.. maybe easier for someone that never learned to use hardware..

I know I have always had favorite hardware sequencers in the past, and I still do...The one on my keyboard..

I think it's a matter of personal preference. One could make a compelling argument for either approach (and both would be equally valid). If someone has a way of doing things that works well for them, who are we to say that OUR way of doing things is better for THEM or that they lack the technical knowledge or expertise to do it 'the correct way'. The fact is; I doubt seriously if ANY professional engineers use a keyboard's on-board sequencer to do any kind of serious recording, but for the kind of amateur recording that most of us do, it may work just fine, especially if you're recording a gig or a rehearsal.

My own personal preference is a computer-based DAW; the other choices being multi-track standalone recorders, and the on-board sequencers found on arranger (and other) keyboards. For me, I like the flexibility of being able to use multiple sound sources (keyboards, modules, VST's, Mics, live drums or percussion instruments, etc.). Then there are the thousands of high quality processing effects unavailable with a single keyboard. With a DAW, the recording possibilities are literally unlimited. The product of an on-board sequencer usually ends up in a computer anyway so why not just 'anchor' it there in the first place. But that's just MY reasons for using a DAW, YMMV. The point is; it's fine to listen to the advice and experiences of others (so long as it's not presented as a MANDATE), but in the end, do what works best for YOU. JMO.

chas

at this point I think my KORG Pa4x will be like Frans Roland G70 regarding having it for life....at some point you have to say enough is enough and just start making great much with what you have to the fullest.....am I right? or?

A daw is a blessing for working on a midi file...
So much tools, to improve the midi
Just domt use the daws sounds, but midi it to your keyboard

To me the sequencers on arrangers are merely play back devices
If happy finetune sounds and effects on the arranger/sequencer

Thank you Bachus I knew you would understand what I am talking about...

Your posts proves my point..

You need to connect the keyboard to transmit the note on /off and data... to the DAW.. You also have to midi back to play the keyboard sound source...

Not to efficient on the spur of the moment.. Having it in a self contained hardware is way better..
Take your PA4x for examples...You both own one.. Try this in your DAW and compare it to using the onboard sequencer in the Korg..

Record a midi capture of the Korg arrangement (style).. a SMF.. Now modify the insert effect and / or change the effect, now change the tone to a sampled user tone on the Korg.. Strip the excess system exclusive message or add one to the sequence..
Now add lyrics to the SMF... Don't forget to maybe change the bass line at the end of the sequence...add a ride cymbal at the end..

You can do this with just the PA4x ... on stage..

Now do this on your Daw...get back to me in a couple days with the results.... oh that's right you can't do the above in the DAW..

My bet either of you have never used the on board sequencer in detail... or learned how to use it..

Yes the DAW has advantages ... most in audio ... not midi..

Try midi edditing using a piano roll tool
Or try adding some automation to a track..

Every step of edditing you do to the midi goes so much faster on the daw that the actuall up and dowload takes near to no time compared to the time you won with the efficient edditing

Well, I hear ya, but It's hard to believe you after crying "WOLF" so many, many times. My friendly advice - Lay low, keep using the 4x, and stop swearing that it's the best thing since sliced audio waves. I love ya bud, but your credibility regarding longevity, and loyalty is a bit skewed. Stay on the down-low for a bit.
Hearing you sing the "I love my 4X FOREVAH" tune just isn't believable. Pace yourself. Run the long race. Show us your longevity in practice, instead of theory.
Remember - I LOVE YA! (but, you make me crazy, sometimes)

Bachus piano roll , step sequencing and other like tools were designed for the non player..

I have used them and prefer to play the parts.. as in punch in..etc.

I am sure you know what I am saying about all in one operation ..
What could be better than correct something in the instrument that created it..
No cables, no computers, no hassle..

I'm telling you Dave this is it for me,
with only a few arrangers left what is really so called
The best?......
enjoy what you play or use to make music.....

OK - I'm watching you, pal.

I agree with fran on this one. I use my onboard sequencer exclusively to make backing tracks for my group and others . And I also agree with chas in terms of there is no best method , only the method that works best for you .

Even so, I would hate to think he is falsely crowing about his new investment. However short or long term his adoration lasts, I am sure his attitude translates to more productive enjoyment, and that's the name of the game.

Keep in mind that when Donny changes arranger keyboards there is no fanfare - it's usually a covert operation that takes place in the middle of the night. Then, one day, someone notices that his logo on his posts has changed. Whoops! What the hell happened? Oh, the keyboard that met HIS NEEDS no longer met HIS NEEDS. The marriage is suddenly over and it's off to another new love. Kinda like watching a ping-pong match.

Good luck,

Gary