Just announced

http://www.korg.com/my/products/synthesizers/pa4x/

Its looks big and heavy but nice to see new arrangers coming to market.

The link was deleted from Korg..

What's going on?

but the picture still there

Korg Pa 4X

[i]

From the specs i have seen so far, it seems more like a PA3x plus.

Same style engine
Slightly upgraded sound engine, but the improtant features that make the Kronos stand out did not make it to PA4x (sample streaming, piano damper and string resonance)
And the whole PCM memmory is a whopping 400 MB with another 400 Mb for user samples.

We have to see how this works out for the soundquallity..

But Korg italy did not use the technical advantage Korg has with their Kronos in the PA3x..

Maybe its just me, but they are again using the same old hardware (as all other arranger manufactorers) to maximize proffits.

I guess nothing more than what Yamaha did from T4 to T5. But, we will see.

which would mean that none of the Kronos/Krome grand pianos are implemented in the same quality without loops. However, as I found out, the better M3 piano with its 128 MB sounded very similar.
But obviously Korg doesn't try to come close to Kronos dimensions here; it is also inferior to the Yamaha MoXF specs with its 700+ MB preset sounds plus up to 2 GB flash user samples.

but then as everyone keeps ugrading for only minor advancements, why would they invest in new technollogy?

Here are the specs, copied by a Korg user before they where taken offline again..


-2 models to choose from: 76-key or 61-key
Semi–weighted keys with velocity sensitivity and aftertouch.
-Elegant, streamlined aluminum cabinet
-Huge 7-inch capacitive TouchView™ display with tilting system.
-Easy-to-use panel layout and intuitive redesigned graphical interface.
-New EDS-X (Enhanced Definition Synthesis-eXpanded) sound engine.
Improved realism and pristine sound quality.
-Massive internal ROM with a renewed PCM database
Plus up to 400 MB of user PCM data

-Over 1,500 sounds including GM and XG sets
512 user Sound and 128 user Drumkit locations with full editing features
-Digital Drawbar Organ sound engine
DNC (Defined Nuance Control) and realtime articulation:
- Three assignable switches
- Four-way joystick
- Ribbon controller
Complete sample recording and editing features
Import audio waveforms in the most common formats including Wav, Aiff and SoundFont™.
Over 500 factory Styles with Intros, Endings, Fills, Count-ins, and Breaks
- 4 Keyboard Sets and 4 Pads per Style,
- 13 Internal user banks and 13 Direct user banks locations for unlimited storage
Guitar Mode 2 provides more realistic guitar parts
Chord Sequencer function in Style Play mode records any chord progression on-the-fly
- Chord Sequences can be saved in each Style and SongBook entry
Search function for quickly locating any musical resource
New standard MidiFile to Style converter feature
Keyboard Set Library includes a collection of best ready to play sounds
- Keyboard Sets can be recalled even from Direct locations
Multiple Effects processors – 142 effect types:
- 4 Insert and 3 Master effects for accompaniment parts,
- 1 Insert and 2 Master effects for Keyboard Tracks
Waves MAXXAUDIO Mastering Suite: MaxxEQ™, MaxxBass™, MaxxTreble™, MaxxStereo™, MaxxVolume™
TC Helicon® Vocal Processing: Four-part Harmonizer, Double, µMod, Reverb, Delay, Filter, HardTune, Pitch Correction plus Compressor, EQ, Gate (Adaptive Mic Setting on the Mic input)
Double MP3/MIDI file players with recording capability, X-Fader and Vocal Remover
- Score, Chords, and Lyric display
- Compatible with most common lyrics formats including graphical (+G) for MP3.
- Lyrics can be showed in their original languages (except Oriental and Arabic Languages
Enhanced compatibility for GM and XG songs.
Fully programmable SongBook database based on Styles, SMF, Karaoke, and MP3
- Instant recall of any song setting
- User-definable Set Lists assignable to panel buttons
- Filtering and ordering options
Multi-language extended character set.
Internal hard drive
Pa4X 76: Standard
Pa4X 61: Optional
MicroSD card slot (card not included) allows for mass storage and data protection
Optional PaAS speaker bar—connects without wires or power supply

The most interesting features for me would be the ability to save chord sequences to Songbook, and Direct Play of styles from external media.
Those are about the only weaknesses I see in the PA3X. Of course there is always room for improvement!

More details and photo's on the Korg Forum

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=99673

Col

WEIGHT???

Official introduction tomorrow, September 3rd.


regards,
John

Yes, online introduction, first demos in Oktober

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=UeKhFmjYKaM.


regards
John

Just finished spending a few hours with it, Details to follow

Looking forward to your report!!

Hurry up I haven't bought a keyboard in several weeks.

Oh My....

According to the video, the on-board PCM must be much more than the 400 MB somebody mentioned in another thread. So probably it was somehow mixed up with the 400 MB of user storage.
I assume they have raised the PCM waveROM to the Krome level just by implementing its German Grand piano and e-pianos, but let's see...
Although I'm not impressed by the video yet, I think it's appalling how some Youtube users are already starting a shitstorm about it without the details being clear.

· 10x the PCM of the Pa3X and new EDS-X engine for unbelievable new levels of expression and realism

1,500+ including Kronos-derived piano
90 drum kits with adjustable ambience

· Tilting 7” Color Touch Screen for enhanced interaction

· More intuitive panel layout for faster navigation in any situation

· Aluminum chassis is built to be road-ready and solid

· TC Helicon and Waves MAXX on board

· New MIDI File to Style Converter

Can it read and play styles from USB or must they still be loaded?
Thanks,

they are suppose to be able to play right from the USB

Wow it almost has as many sliders as my i30. How can someone work these boards with two sliders is beyond my comprehension. Also on both of my i30s the touch screens work like new and they both are 16 years old. I wonder if these newer touch screens will hold up that long. From my standpoint there aren't many of us on the forum here will be around long enough to find out, except for the one or two 50 year old kids that visit from time to time haha.

When will you have one in your store to demo?

WHOA, Steve ... ready for a new board ?!? ... let me know if you are going down to Frankie's ...

Ya just never know I'm happy with the T5 and Pa3x, but.........it's been 2 years.......long stretch for me. I will call you if I take the drive to Frank's but I will call you anyway we need to meet up for breakfast!

Now it states 10 times more PCm ROM then PA3x. how much was in PA3x?
Kronos Pianos are about 4GB in size, so if any of those is in there, it might be huge.

But only 400 MB free? really? thats less then in PA3x..
Myabe they just put in an 8Gb MSata SSD instead of ROM and put as much samples on there as possible.. IF so, i hope you can upgrade it to create more sample room. If so, it suddenly opens up a lot of potential

Its up on the official Korg website

In Action...

http://youtu.be/bAXg0HAoPYU

Cheers
Ky

Good find Ky,

I gotta say though, from that video there was not 1 single thing demonstrated that is not in the PA 3x...

I am only speculating at this point but I don't see many major compelling differences over the PA 3X as yet.

One of the "new features" listed is an SMF to Style converter. this feature was in the PA 500/800 and the PA3X already...

Even the "Tough Aluminum Casing" they are boasting about. The PA3x had this!!! its the same casing just has brown instead of grey on the base and the edges of the keyboard.

the good news for PA3X owners is - i am sure a nice OS update will be released when the PA4X comes out giving the PA3x alot of new features that can easily be provided through an update.

Someone above asked whether the PA4X can p-lay Style Files directly from a USB like the Yamaha's can - without the need to save the file onto the keyboard first... this would be a VERY nice to have - even registration memory banks would be another...

Anyways lets see what happens in the coming weeks

Nick

OK just found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=110&v=UeKhFmjYKaM

at 1:44 it has a "direct style / voice from USB" feature...

looks like it can play styles and sounds now directly off the USB without loading them in first. Fantastic!!

Nick

Here is a link to the Manual / Quick Guide:
http://www.korg.com/us/support/download/product/0/516/#manual

No samples, only styles, keyboardsets and songs directly from USB

Deep pockets needed here in Europe:

The RRP ( recommended retail price) of the 61-keys version without speaker is 4250 euro, probably ending up in a streetprice of approx. 3500 euros !!
Just saying..............

regards
John

That's about the same level as Tyros5-61 here in Norway.
Guess there will be a few PA3X Pro at local eBay in not too long

You can curremtly get T5-76 prices for new instruments down to under €3500 overhere in Holland. Its just a matter of negotians, and you get free 1GB expasnion memmory and 2 expansion packs with that.


So far i do like the new PA4x, piano sounds will rock...

But only 400 MB user sounds seems a bad decission, they really should have added the SSD streaming from the Kronos, unless its still a hidden feature, having unlimited expandabillity would have set the PA4x on par with the T5

let's be honest what do you think of these demos vs TYROS 4 or 5 or S950/S970 for that matter Ketron Audya or SD7?

Imho better than Tyros..more realistic..

Especially Drums better than Tyros series

The piano is from Kronos, lightyears ahead of Tyros. Some other spectacular voices like Flugelhorn, with behavior modeling.

It sort of has that Roland G1000 look to it ..

If nothing else, it addresses two very important drawbacks from the PA3X, the ability to read directly from USB and the ability to save Chord Sequences! I heard some great sounds in the demos.
Anybody wanta buy a PA3X?

Love the Chicago Blues style.
Eddie

There's a good chance there will be more than one for sale

From what I have heard so far, most of the styles are quite good, however there are some which are no better than Yamaha (Which in my opinion (Comparing with live bands) are the most unrealistic styles out there) which I find disappointing.

As to sounds they have really cracked it this time and it is a worthy upgrade from the PA2x (While the PA3x sounded good initially after further listening I found in most departments it fell short of the PA2x)

Overall if the demos are what it sounds like in real play (Not artificially processed) then it’s the new number 1, with the T5 falling right off the ladder. (Although the T5 Ensemble feature is still quite good)

As usual until I can try it for myself I will reserve final judgment.

Bill

Overall from what demos I heard, overall features, and specs, the new Korg PA4X falls somewhere between a Tyros 4 and 5. Has some nice new features, and the black is cool, but a pain with dust and scratches over time.

I'll have to check it out in the store. Like Yamaha and other brands, improvements seem to be in baby steps, and sometimes requiring an owner skipping a new model or two before upgrading. In the case of my Tyros 5, I'm good for a couple more years. I'll have to see if the next Tyros model with be worth the upgrade for me. Was interesting what Korg brought to the table this time around; another real nice TOLT arranger option to contemplate.

Marcus

Regarding the PCM sound waveROM increased by the factor 10 to more than 2 GB, it's not a baby step, but an explosion

This new Korg sounds great (like all Korg arrangers) but not much new under the hood. I think that most of the increased waveRom is for the Kronos Grand Piano.

Probably, that was the case with the Krome, too, compared with the M50. 2 GB spent for the grand piano, several hundred MB for e-pianos, and not much for brass, strings, woodwinds etc. I hope it's distributed a bit more evenly here.

I think it sounds great ... LOVED the Jazz Trio ...

It sounds very good, but to be honest, so does the pa3x..

And it adds some new things, but there is also a lot of things stepping back from pa3x

- expansion PCM drops from 512 to 400 MB, there is no more build in lossless compression
- which removes backward compatibillity to pa3x (compressed)expansion sets
- there is no 2nd keyboard split
- there is only a single insert effect shared by the 4 keyboard parts
- there is no more motorised tilting screen
- where the pa3x was much cheeper then the T5, this one is more expensive

In the end, the pa4x is a mixed bag of feelings...

Weight is 13.9 kilograms for the 61-key version. Too heavy for my taste.

30.6443 lbs......it's not plastic correct?

The 76-key is almost 10 lbs lighter than my Pa1xPro. Hmmm, I feel those itchy fingers comin' on.

I feel an excited KORG resurgence coming on.....
eBay will be flooded with Pa3x units soon...

Good luck with your New PA4x units everyone who ever you are!

"A Change is Commin'"

You better call jump on Frank @ Audioworks KORG PA4x
Pre Order list ASAP

http://www.audioworksct.com/

Same here. Problem is, I haven't turned on my PA1x Pro in about a year.....which is my main problem with Arrangers, after awhile heavy-duty boredom sits in. By contrast, after 50 yrs. I still get a buzz every time I sit down to a B3. On the other hand, I'm still a gadget freak and there's nothing better than a MUSICAL gadget, especially one that sounds good (for the first three months anyway ). We'll see.

chas

Is that true? When reading the Korg website specs I did not see any mention of a Kronos Piano voice/patch/program in the Pa4x. I'd be interested to see any reference to that. All I saw from Korg was this:

"Included is a new multi-layer stereo grand piano (with damper and body resonance), plus electric pianos from the acclaimed KORG SV-1 Stage Piano."

Kindly let me know where I can verify that the Kronos piano is in the Pa4x. I would think that a Kronos piano voice would be a spectacular selling point, particularly as I was disappointed in the piano sounds that I heard come from the Tyros 5. It's all subjective, of course. Just my perception. It would be absolutely amazing if the new Pa4x could be had with the amazing Kronos Grand Piano sound. Hal

Actually, it is my impression as I know the Kronos/Krome German Grand quite well, I analyzed its sound compared to the M3 expansion piano. I'm pretty sure this PA-4x piano on Soundcloud is the Kronos German Grand, but it might have fewer layers or be looped and thus be reduced in sample size. In my comparison between the 2 GB Krome German Grand and the 128 MB M3 expansion piano I found that the sound difference is very, very small and only audible if single tones are sustained several seconds or a scale is played slowly to detect jumps in the timbre.

So from that description you quoted I think you are right that it is not 100% of the Kronos German Grand with its unlooped decay, but I guess it is somewhere between the Kronos and the M3 expansion piano, still with several hundreds of MB at least. This is the comparison I made between the two, the M3 piano even sounds better than the 2 GB Krome piano here because no sustain pedal was installed in the store where I line-recorded the Krome, otherwise the recording settings were equal. You can really tell from this recording that both pianos go back to the same sampling session some years before the Kronos was released. For the M3 they had to make a compressed version, for the new technology of the Kronos they were able to implement the full amount of data.
https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/piano-comparison-korg-krome-vs-korg-m3-xp-2013

Actually I would even be glad if the PA-4X version was a reduced version, because that would mean that there are a lot of other excellent, large samples, as the total waveROM is stated as over 2 GB. In fact, the easiest way to fill the 2 GB would have been to just take one of the Kronos pianos and leave the rest unchanged from PA-3X.

Some people tend to think a 2 GB piano must sound 10 times better than a 200 MB piano, of course that's not true as most of the 1.8 additional GB are spent for very long loops or even a loopless decay of 20 seconds and for maybe 8 velocity layers instead of 4. But the actual full-bodied sound of the piano is usually already in the "first" 200 MB, the other characteristics are only audible in very specific situations. And even a 2 GB sample can be screwed if the original sampling session is not done properly. This is why the old Roland expansion boards have wonderful sounds despite their ridiculous waveROM of 8 MB. They were sampled by Eric Persing

I don't see the importance of the Piano when your gonna play it "in a mix" with a styles etc,......yes a good piano is needed to a point,.....
but, if I wanted a PIANO I'd Buy a Piano of some kind to play solo.
But we all have our preferences,.....it's just that Piano was never mine.

Good luck.

If we were good piano players,,,we would understand the importance of a great piano sound and key response..
Personally, I want the best piano sound and key feel, the arranger can offer..I do play piano mode, when I play styles..
It is the sound I demo first..If the company doesn't do a good job on piano...not interested in the other inferior sounds...

If the piano were the only reason to buy an arranger, I would have never purchased one.

Gary

See above

Just to repeat what I said above, I don't like it either if most of the waveROM is spent just for one grand piano, It is a pity that the Krome has less than 300 MB for brass, strings, woodwinds/reed etc. So I hope it is distributed more evenly in the case of the PA-4X.

Ha Ha. I’m really surprised that some players would not want a better sounding piano if they could have it anyway, without giving anything up in their arranger. I never said that the piano sound is the only reason I would buy an arranger. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I like some things I’m reading and hearing about the Pa4x from Korg’s description and videos and if the arranger comes with a better piano at no expense, then it seems to me like a no-lose, win situation. I was just getting excited (based on rosetree’s comment about a better Grand Piano in the Pa4x), that an excellent current arranger might actually be getting an improved piano. Yes, the majority of my leads are piano, but I would hate to play a jazz or pop piece on an arranger (with a jazz or pop style backing) and have the lead piano in the arranger sound sub-par. Thank you rosetree for describing some of your Korg piano sound experience. What you say makes sense, and I agree that a better piano without overconsumption of waveROM is a good thing in an arranger. From the limited info I see so far from Korg’s materials, It sounds like the Pa4x will be able to accomplish that. Fran, I think you interpreted what I said the way I meant it. Bottom line, if Korg says, I can have it all, great arranger features and styles, continued nice selection of voices, good allocation of memory resources, plus a wonderful sounding Grand Piano, I’ll be very interested.

It all depends on your playing style how important the piano is. I play a lot of piano with minimalistic acompaniment which makes the solo piano sound and keybed feel quite important for me. Thats the main reason i have an 88 key Kronos under my T5..

The Yamaha grand piano on the T5 is between good and very good when used in the mix. But when used solo its about just okay. Solo piano just requires more dynamics and depth then playing it in the mix. Thats why Donny has other needs for a piano then me and Fran.


The Kronos German grand in the Kronos is about 4Gb and the version in the Krome is 2GB. The PCM sounds of the PA4x total 5.1 GB, which makes makes the version of the Krome the most likely one to be used in the PA4x. It could even be a 1GB version of that Piano, all depends on how they loop the samples and such. but in both these cases it allows for having over 3GB of other PCm samples for all the other sounds which still is huge.


According to the German Korg webside, the PA4x has the streaming engine of Kronos build in, just looks like its not available for user sounds yet. Seems User sounds can only be loaded into RAM. which is a pitty. there is also the limit of 500 user voices max. which really reducess the usefullness of the PA4x compared to Kronos, you just cant have an entire libraray of your very own sounds which would hyave allowed to build your own library


There are also supposed to be localised versions like the Musikant, Asyrian, Balkan and Indian versions. Which have more (1800+) sounds then the 1500 base sounds of the international version. and still have the 400 MB user sample size..


Korg needs to be more open about their future plans, hardware expansionsand updates for the instrument whne they want to make it a huge hit and rival the T5.


In general people that dont want all the expandabillity and user sounds are probably better off with a lower tier model. To ma Korg has allways been about creating your very own sound on top of having great sounds out of the Box. So it requires more then just a great piano espescially where it comes to adding your own sounds and samples.. Having more then just one grate piano sound in the future is what sells a korg...

A new french demo surfaced on internet







Enjoy..

Nice.

If look at 5.50 in this video, (almost at the end) it show a nice feature. Midi to style convert. Very easy steps, and don't sound to bad.
But how this work and sound in "the real life" is another question...... Anyway, a great addon and a nice step forward.

The German Grand of the Krome is identical to that of the Kronos, 8 velocity layers and unlooped samples. The 4 GB you state for the Kronos are German Grand plus Japanese Grand together, and the Japanese Grand is not part of the Krome.

Another nail in the coffin of the T5. (Yamaha need to do something quick if they wish to stay in the TOTL Arranger market)

Bill

NEVER Underestimate Yamaha ......as for the new Korg I do love the Tiltup Display screen & Black color....

I
Does your statement make any sense? Many brands develop and sell their TOLT arranger keyboards. The Tyros 5 came out 2 years ago and yet Korg managed an upgraded Korg PA3X upgrade in the PA4X that almost matches the older Tyros 5. Each have their unique specialized features, but pretty much on par with each other.

Now, somehow Yamaha is suppose to roll over and stop producing TOTL arrangers. Even if Yamaha stop producing their TOTL arrangers, I would still stick with Tyros 5 for years to come because no arranger has surpassed the realism and performance. It would still take Korg years to introduce their next TOTL arranger, while Yamaha's Tyros 6 is just around the corner.

I think more Tyros 4 owners upgraded to the Tyros 5 then PA3X upgrading to the PA4X will in the end. Is their not reports that the PA4X price is more than a Tyros 5. What PA3X owner is going to spend the difference for a PA4X for the few upgrades it offers?

Marcus

You got no clue about Yamaha Tyros obviously, and what makes it so popular, sadly almost non of these T5 buyers has much use for these new features on the Pa4x. They just want to sit and play and enjoy whats in the T5...

They are not people that want to create their own stuff, they just want to copy and paste from somewhere and enjoy it playing their favourite alltime tunes..


But outside of the edditing, Yamaha delivers big time...

- sa2 sounds, still nothing on the pa4x that comes close to the automation of sa2 sounds
- organ world, which goes miles further then just a sampled B3 drawbar in Pa4x
- ensemble feature, no clue why its not in the pa4x, as its an awesome liveplay tool
- effects section way more advanced then Korg
- dj, freeplay and session styles, which are a step up from the standard style system, making a much more dynamic option... And dj styles come with a build in chord sequencer, that can also be saved.. Which could be transfered tp other styles with the T6

And what comming up is that they are embedding more and more forms of synthesis and virtualisation into the awm engine..

SCM for acoustic pianos
VRM for digital pianos
FM, VA and other things for synths (same as with Hallion5)
And much much more
Everything being embedded into the AWM2 engine

Yamaha has so much new technollogy in their labs and are on the verge of having transfered everything to a new hardware platform that will debute in the upcomming Montage.

There is even a new drumengine with round robbin and other versatile features in their labs
And they have licensed technollogy for realtime transposing full audio styles..
And much much more..



Korg missed the T5 Mark with their pa4x, unless there are still hidden features they inherrited from the Kronos under the hood. Like real sample streaming from hdd or ssd

Not to defend Yamaha but what is so much better in the Korg PA4x then the Tyros 5. Please explain.

To me, the PA-4X strings and the piano have more depth. Somehow a lot of its sounds sound more direct, down-to-earth and realistic to me, even if the Tyros 5 is very good (except some symphonic sounds). But that's individual taste, makes no sense arguing about it.

The Tyros guys are happy because Tyros does what THEY want. Korgies are happy because Korg does stuff THEY want.
I'm happy there are at least three great choices now.
Personally, I rank Yamaha third, but it would still be a great choice if the others weren't available.

Uh
Good points presented, but in regards to the Tyros 5 owners being mostly " sit and play ", I would have to add that most owners that buy arranger keyboards ( any brand ), buy mostly for the out of the box " sit and play " ability. That goes for Korg arrangers also.

The remaining smaller percentage buy the arranger for the editing features, plus arranging abilities with the end result to get the most authentic sound they can. As far as editing, composing, arranging, and performing, the Tyros 5 still delivers " big time " beyond just the sit and play experience.

The Korg PA3X/PA4X does present some nice deeper editing abilities in some areas, but just as " sit and play " as the next arranger. Style editing is very important and 90% of my styles, multi pads, midi songs, ensemble registrations, OTS settings, custom voices and drum kits are either created new or modified from the " sit and play " default. Deep editing beyond Style Creator, Multipad Creator, or Voice Creator can be made within the Yamaha Expansion Manager or large amount of PC programs available ( mostly free).

In other words, beyond the sit and play experience, you have the choice of the tools the TOTL arranger presents to create your content and musical arrangement from inception to performance and recording. One's needs and opinions can certainly be quite different, but for the most part a lot of arranger users invest in the TOLT arranger because of the editing abilities.

Marcus

As I have said many times everybody is different, however I am coming from the point of regularly listening to live bands, and in this respect the T5 falls short, as for me most of the voices (Including a lot of the fancy voices it has) are just so unrealistic that it is just depressing. The PA4x however, (From what I have heard so far) does sound more like a real band.

On its own the T5 is impressive sounding, however impressive does not mean realistic, and I want realism, along with the ability to do my own thing without the board getting in the way, and this is another phase where the T5 falls flat on its face. (You have to take so much off to get to the base sound (Which is the most important part of any sound) that you soon just want to throw it out the window)

Bill

In my opinion the Tyros styles never sounded live. The styles is so studio mixed, that the live feeling disappears.
I have T5, PA3x, Audya and MidjPro in my studio, and I want to say that the Audya styles are very live, but in the long time running Korg is the winner for me.
I have ordered a PA4x, and next month I have it in my studio.

/fozzie

I have played the Pa3x and to my ears the sound engine in this Pa4x is much much better(atleast 5 times as good if not 10 times ). It`s more realistic yet retains the thick sound that Korg has. I think Korg has a winner in the Pa4x and is now getting closer to the T5(but still some distance to go). IMHO, almost all the sounds and styles in the demos posted on the soundcloud are quite lively and realistic. Good one from Korg !!

I also think the Soundcloud demos are brilliant, it seems a good deal of the much larger waveROM has been dedicated to these sounds. I can 't really understand the statements that there isn't much new compared to PA-3X.

You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all of the people all of the time.
I observed a similar stream of critically negative comments about the Tyros 5 when its initial specs came out. I remember it becoming quite a downer on several forums to read reactions to the T5 release which I was anticipating especially as I was looking for 76 keys. It seems each arranger/keyboard release is always accompanied by disappointment. So, here it goes again. It's just like with new car buying. You can wait forever for the ultimate car which never comes, or you make your choice when you really need it and get the best that suits your needs and wants at the time. You can only choose from what's available. We're not running the Korg company. They can listen to us but they know who they want to please most and will, via their own research, determine what's best for their goal market. It's a free market. If we want to change Korg's or Yamaha's product development then we have to get an internal job as their development department and direct it. They're doing their customer market research, looking at feedback on these forums, then digest the info and conclude what's the best trade-off in product cost vs overall economic return. Korg and Yamaha will, in the final analysis, proceed according to Ricky Nelson's most practical philosophy: "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself."
Hal

No doubt the new Korg PA4X is an awesome arranger with that Korg "live" feel to the sound. This doesn't warrant any other arranger that has factory default DSP effects set a little more higher for the more processed sound to have voices or drum kits sound less real or authentic.

The dry/wet processed sound is totally adjustable for the user and towards what total "feel" you ultimately want. It is totally subjective and the preference of the listener to how they what the music to sound like ( processed verses live ). It wouldn't be fair to simply cut up an arranger because it isn't setup to their overall preferences or style of play or even a more live type sound.

DPS adjustments can easily adjust the overall sound of an arranger or style performance to mimic any acoustic environment, from small room, stage, outdoors, or a full processed sounding CD quality. If any, Yamaha lessened the overall processed sound from the Tyros 4 to Tyros 5, yet not at the default drier level of Korg.

Those comments about Yamaha's SA2 sounding unrealistic is ridiculous. The whole point to the SA2 voices is to accurately mimic the sound and behaviour of the actual instrument with full control of the player. If the processed sound is throwing someone off, then a drier ( live feel) processed sound can be adjusted.

As far as comments that the new PA4X sounding 5 to 10x better than the PA3X is absurd. Any improvements is a bonus, but 1000% better? Does this mean VTS is a thing of the past?

The PA4X is a very impressive arranger and certainly worth the money, if it fits into your needs and budget, but to kick sand into the eyes of other users choices is unwarranted and sometimes over the top.

Marcus

Plus 1

Gary

It was Jez' individual assessment that some sounds from the Soundcloud demos appeared 5 to 10 times better than the PA-3X. I don't think it's too helpful to classify a personal impression as absurd here.
Regarding the question 'wet' vs. 'dry', you can control the effects, reverb etc., but you cannot control what's inside the sample. John just said in the Ketron SD 7 thread that the SD 7 drums have some remaining ambient reverb in the sample he cannot get rid of. It's not only reverb, there are several characteristics of a sample you can't influence. Maybe some Korg samples are just sampled with a more direct, raw and less processed sound compared to the Tyros.

Hi Marcus,

I was only trying to point that the sounds are much more improved compared to the PA3X[obvious point though]. It was mentioned that the waverom was 10 times compared to the previous model; I was only saying it never really sounded 10 times better (in proportion to the ROM increase) but certainly much better compared to the previous Pa3X. Don`t catch me or anyone for the figures quoted (5 times or 10 times) for sonic improvement The drastic improvement in the sound engine alone is a good enough reason to upgrade to Pa4X (IMO)

And whats more, I still think T5 is the board to beat in many of the special voices (SA2 versus DNC versus Supernatural) and have no intentions to kick sand onto any of the keyboards. I love the T5 too but will have to sell my car to buy it And again, all this is my opinion and there is no right or wrong... So enjoy whatever suits you

Cheers,
Jez

Very good, thanks for the clarifications.

Most voice samples with all DSP effects removed are pretty dry and sound similar between arrangers. The only voices or in the case of the Tyros that might have some natural reverb added to samples is maybe some pipe organ samples and perhaps the real drum and real brushes drum kits.

I did notice sometimes too much reverb or natural ambiance added to the audio drum parts, where obviously you cannot remove that reverb. However, I found the Tyros 5 Real Reverb DSP to be extremely realistic reproducing ambiance situations to the dry sample voices to lessen the default overall DSP processing to replicate an nice live sounding environment.

Leaning more towards the fuller Yamaha processed sound for my needs, I do respectfully agree that Korg has that nice live feel. However, just as you can add more DSP processing to the default Korg sound, one can also remove some Yamaha processing. As real as audio samples are, matching the ambiance in all the mix sometimes needs work.

Marcus

Who makes the final decisions on the voice creation and completed mix of styles within all these arrangers? Do the style programmers do their own mixing? Would we see a better product/sound if it were put in the hands/ears of experienced studio personnel, who are professionals at mastering final audio recordings?