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#400987 - 03/31/15 08:16 AM TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
The trumpet soloist in the KN7000 is a very realistic trumpet sound. Most of the vibrato notes are good but some our downright sloppy--bad sounding. The vibrato is so slow it sounds like an old car with a dead battery and trying to start it on a cold morning. Does anyone know how to edit this to where all the notes have an even vibrato? One would think going into Sound Edit changes could be made. Nothing works. I find that some of the sounds in the keyboard can't be changed in Sound Edit. I am referring to the Easy Edit of Sound Edit. I think this great trumpet sound was in the KN6000. You would think Technics would have done something about some of the notes having bad vibrato by the time the KN7000 came out.

Mark

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#400993 - 03/31/15 10:17 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
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Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Hi Kitkat,

There's a good reason for this... what you're hearing is the original player, playing with vibrato. This is why you can't edit the vibrato out. I agree that the vibrato on the Trumpet Soloist is too extreme for long, sustained notes, it works better in punchy, staccato passages where the starter motor begins to crank but doesn't get a chance to fully kick in laugh

Your way around this is to edit the Solo Trumpet NV patch which you can access in Sound Explorer. This patch is the original player, playing without vibrato (this is the NV designation - No Vibrato). You can then use Easy Edit to add a little delayed vibrato. Maybe add a little brilliance and play with the attack. You will achieve exactly the sound you're looking for without much trouble I assure you. It's not the same as a recording of the original player but, as you say, his lips were working overdrive that day, so if you do your own edit to the NV version I think you'll get just the right sound to suit you.

I've just given it a go on my KN7000 and it took about 20 seconds to get an improvement over and above the Trumpet Soloist (to my ears) that would be more suited to most pieces of music.

I think that when most of us bought our KN7000s we expected a complete 'work out of the box' package (and got it) without really realising the extents and ease of editing that we had acquired. In some ways, living with the keyboard for longer instead of buying the next (non-existent) upgrade has been a brilliant learning experience and much better value for money!

Let us know how you get on.
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#400994 - 03/31/15 10:22 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: designserve]
designserve Offline
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Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
PS - Technics didn't re-record the instruments for each model so the recordings you heard in the KN6000 (and KN5000 and more) are the same ones as the KN7000 but at a higher resolution on KN7000.

Whilst they are at a higher resolution, I can't personally tell the difference, I think it's a bit theoretical and not very relevant.

I don't think that my ears could tell much of a difference from my old B&O music centre (had for very cheap on eBay) than Technics new 50k HiFi either and for 50,000 I would want it to be able to play my vinyls so it isn't on my xmas list :)))))


Edited by designserve (03/31/15 10:25 AM)
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#400995 - 03/31/15 10:32 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Hi Designserve,

Thanks for your response. It is exactly what I was planning on doing. Time is everything but I thought I would get opinions on the forum before doing your suggestion. Yesterday, I did go into TONE in Sound Edit and looked at the three trumpets that are ON and I will find the "vibrato trumpet" used for the three and see if I can get that very trumpet sound without vibrato. Replacing the trumpet to what is shown for the Trumpet Soloist should work or so, I hope. I want to keep all the filters, etc. the same to hopefully get the same trumpet sound and then go in to Easy Edit and add proper vibrato and delay and if necessary, brilliance to get the same quality sound.

What I don't understand is that playing the bad sounding vibrato note an octave higher, the vibrato is correct. I thought I could just move the octave range down and play in the higher range. It ends up the same slow vibrato when making this change. I find it strange that the same note an octave higher is correct.

Mark

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#400996 - 03/31/15 10:43 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
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Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Hi Mark,

I don't want to come across as a sound editing expert because I'm not, I just dabble a bit and have read a few articles.... but my guess is that the Trumpet Soloist was recorded closely in the higher register and the vibrato isn't as suitable when playing lower notes.

What you're intending to do sounds like the right way to go to me.

I did a recording a while back where I had set a few different trumpets, with touch-enabled effects, into different panel memories but then found that they were panned to different locations etc, so basing several different Trumpet sounds on one original setup is definitely the way to go. The result of my recording, even when I had adjusted the panning, sounded like different trumpet players playing alternate parts of the song so that went down the pan. Especially when I discovered that the sequencer hadn't recorded the aftertouch!

Cheers,
Mike
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#401067 - 04/02/15 02:54 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
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Hi Mike,

Just bringing you up to date about the Trumpet Soloist sound. There is no hope of improving the vibrato. What is interesting is that what is shown in TONE, there are three trumpets shown ON. Two and Three show Brt. Trumpet 2 and neither have any sound yet, the volumes are set quite high. Very strange. All that is heard is Vib. Trumpet in the first position. Using the closest sounding trumpet with no vibrato to Trumpet Soloist and going to Easy Edit to put in the vibrato, it sounds nothing less than terrible. It is too bad that one of the best sounds in the keyboard responds badly on certain notes. What I find very odd is that they don't all sound good with vibrato in the upper range. Even some sound OK in the lower range but in both upper and lower, there are notes that sound less than pleasing. I agree with you when saying that the only way to get around this is not sustain a note that has a slow vibrato. This means that one has to really do a lot of improvising around the melody of the song in order to fool the listener.

Mark

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#401073 - 04/03/15 01:58 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
HarryG Offline
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Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 182
Loc: Germany
Hi Mark,

a trumpet with vibrator is an enrichment for certain songs. But if the effect is too strong, the sound is unnatural.

I have set 2 instrumental songs on YT. They are played with the Trumpet and the solo trumpet. I think the vibrator effect is good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw49IqQWW5o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP7nmqvONk4

In Music Stylist - Musical Category - Easy Listening - Ballad Orchestra - Brass Smoochy is also a useful Trumpet with vibrator effect.

Also in Music Stylist & trad folk - Mountain Music- Dolomiti Trumpet, you find a Trumpet with vibrator.

Another possibility would be the sound DSP - vibrato (Vibrato 1-8). If you "Depht" are altering, also changes the vibrator effect.


Edited by HarryG (04/03/15 02:02 AM)

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#401077 - 04/03/15 03:02 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: HarryG]
designserve Offline
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Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Harry,

Brilliant playing as ever!!

Mark,

I'll have a chance to take a look later on so I'l see whether I can add anything.

In the meantime, have a look at Phil's site where he has some examples of the original Technics recordings. He doesn't have the Trumpet soloist mp3 up but the first recording is probably the same player and instrument (you can find out by downloading Phil's spreadsheet).

http://www.allrightmusic.co.uk/Examples.html

This is also worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIM40ntxh1c

Send us a recording or video link or description to explain what you're wanting because the trumpet is very versatile but the low range is limited. You're wanting vibrato in a low register? For what style of music?

Cheers,
Mike
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#401127 - 04/04/15 07:23 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Thanks, Harry and Mike for your links. Firstly, Harry, that is a beautiful trumpet sound you created. It is very much like what I created but my choice of vibrato is just a bit but not much faster than yours. However, the vibrato you chose is perfect for taps. What I have found is that no matter how perfect a trumpet sound I can create, it just doesn't come up to a believable trumpet solo sound as the sound in Trumpet Soloist. That built in delay, the tonal quality...is very natural sounding and believable compared to the perfect vibrato created in Sound Edit. Clearly, the Trumpet Soloist in the keyboard was made in the style of Harry James. It works! I just wish the vibrato were even throughout.

Mike, thanks for the links. Very interesting and makes one more aware of what the trumpet range and technique is all about. The link in allrightmusic is very interesting but it doesn't necessarily pertain to sounds in the KN7000 so one can't create these sounds. I think, as you do that the only way around this beautiful Trumpet Soloist in the KN7000 is to not sustain the bad notes that have vibrations in question. I get around them by being able to improvise the melody and not stay on them but briefly.

The Trumpet Soloist is ideal for playing standards in a slow ballad way. It is not suitable for an up-tune song.

Mark

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#401136 - 04/05/15 08:26 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
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Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
You might be better off starting with the Soft Trumpet in Sound Explorer and brightening it up.

The link to allright music is to the actual samples used in the KN7000 but, as you say, there's no example of the Trumpet Soloist, there will be info about it (him) in the spreadsheet

Try some of the expansion card sounds there might be one that suits you.

Best wishes,
Mike
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#401165 - 04/06/15 09:23 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Thanks, Mike. As I smile and say that I have exhausted all trumpet possibilities in the KN7000. I'll stick with the Trumpet Soloist and only touch briefly the slow sounding vibrato notes, treating them like touching a wet hot socket and improvise around the melody.

Best,

Mark

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#401171 - 04/06/15 03:31 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
Bill Norrie Offline
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Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Just a thought....Have you tried using a non vib Trumpet and using After Touch to add the Vibrato ?

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#401190 - 04/07/15 08:25 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Hi Bill,

Good thought. I'm not quite sure how you would do this. Are you suggesting it be done in EASY EDIT by using Delay along with using vibrato?

Mark

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#401196 - 04/07/15 01:00 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi Mark,
I'm a bit busy at present, but I'll get back to you as soon as I can......
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#401197 - 04/07/15 01:12 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
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Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Hi Both,

Umm. I've been chuckling for a couple of hours because this is what I said in my first post but I thought you had tried it. Have a look back. Take you a couple of minutes to make a good trumpet I reckon.

Best wishes,
Mike
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#401212 - 04/08/15 04:48 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Chuckle you may Mike.. But what I was suggesting is a bit different to your method..... LOL !!

I was thinking about providing a Vibrato "On Demand" by using the After Touch facility.
Using your method would certainly provide an improvement, but using the Delay Vibrato would mean that every note held down long enough to allow the Delay to time out, means that the vibrato would be applied to every 'long' note. This may or may not be the desired result....

Using the After Touch method would enable the player to produce the vibrato as and when he wished to do so, merely by pressing harder on the key, and even producing a steady note, then the Vibrato, then back to a steady note.....

As I mentioned previously, I'm a bit tied up at present but will get back with a procedure.....
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Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#401226 - 04/08/15 09:50 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
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Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Aha yes Bill you're right! Good thinking!

Reg's video might help with this I should think it is the same principle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzssMW74GvM

Best wishes,
Mike

PS send us your perfected Trumpet Impresario when you've done it! laugh
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#401228 - 04/08/15 11:16 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: designserve]
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
OK- I've found some free time to produce the procedure... Here it is...

Have Fun !!

-----------------------------------------------------
Initial setup
1. Press Program Menus > Control > Overall Touch Sensitivity.
2. Check that the After Touch Settings are as follows : ON/OFF set to ON : Curve set to 10 : Treshold set to 1.
3. If these settings need to be changed, then adjust as necessary.
4. Press EXIT x3 to return to the Home Screen.
5. Make sure only RIGHT1 is selected in the Part Select option buttons.

Procedure
1. Press Sound Explorer > Brass > select either Trumpet NV or Solo Trumpet NV (to your taste)
2. Press Program Menus > Sound Edit > Tone. You should see under Tone Name, Trumpet if you selected Trumpet NV, or Brt. Trumpet 1 if you selected Solo Trumpet NV
3. Press EXIT once to return to the Sound Edit Menu screen.
4. Press Controller and select After Touch (fourth button from top, on left of screen) Orange rectangle will move to After touch.
5. Check that in the Function Column, LFO 1 Depth is selected.
6. Lightly, Press any Note key (within normal Trumpet range) and you should hear the Non-Vibrato Trumpet sound.
7. Press the Note key harder and use the UP Arrow / Down Arrow buttons at the bottom of the screen, in the Depth Column, to adjust the Vibrato Depth to your liking - around 45 seems like a good starting value.....
8. The Vibrato initial Speed appears to be set to 21, however, you can change it to your liking as follows.
9. Press EXIT once to return to the Sound Edit Menu screen.
10. Press LFO and you should see the Pitch Modulation screen. Note that only the 1st voice is ON.
11. Check that LFO 1 is selected (Default). You can now adjust the Vibrato Speed (Default 21), using the Up Arrow / Down Arrow buttons at the bottom of the screen, under the Speed Column. Leave all the other parameters at their default settings
12. Having adjusted the LFO 1 Speed, you may wish to re-adjust the LFO 1 Depth... Press EXIT once and then follow the procedure from step 4 above, repeating as necessary, until you are satisfied with the Depth and Speed results.....
13. Press Program Menus to return to the home screen.

Save Your New Sound
1. Press Program Menus > Sound Edit > WRITE > Sound Naming > CLR
2. Give your New Sound an appropriate name - for example "TouchVibTrumpet" and press OK.
3. Select a Memory Bank location for storing the new Sound and press OK - Your New Sound will be available in the MEMORY button in the Sound Group.
4. It would be a good idea to now Save your entire Sound Memory to a new location on your SD Card
5. On Page 2 of 3 in the SD Save screen, select 'All Off' and then select only the SOUND MEMORY option and name the file appropriately - say New Trumpets......

Additional comments.
Using this method for adding Vibrato to a sound, you can choose when YOU wish to add the effect by just pressing harder on a Note key. You can even play a Note without Vibrato, then add the Vibrato using After Touch and return to a Non-Vibrato sound by just gently releasing the After Touch pressure.
The effect can also be added to other Brass instruments - such as Trombone, Muted Trumpet, Flugel Horn etc. or even Sax and Flutes, by selecting the appropriate NV version of the instrument in Step 1 of the procedure above.
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#401229 - 04/08/15 11:43 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: Bill Norrie]
designserve Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Bill,

As usual, your work is absolutely Astonishing!

Technics should hire you as a Consultant.

You could help them out with the new KN2001 (Codename "Odyssey"... it's shaped like a black monolith and you have to 'think hard' in order to play it).

Invaluable help!

Cheers,
Mike
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#401294 - 04/11/15 09:57 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Hi Bill,

Thanks for your emails. I responded but wanted to post this one for everyone to see. I followed carefully your instructions for the trumpet sound and the trumpet does sound very good. I used the Trumpet NV and not the Trumpet Solo. However, my using the same Trumpet NV in Easy Edit and changing the brilliance for a more brassy sound, using what I considered a good vibrato and delay and I have almost the same quality as doing your method and not have to fight the touch sensitive thing.

I posted earlier that I was able to get a good trumpet sound but I think the problem is with the difference of Trumpet Soloist, it has a spatial vibrato sound to it that is a default. Does anyone know how to come at least close to this sound? If I could get that sound on the trumpet I came up with I would be a happy camper.

Bill, your post is very good for other instruments to consider. I have never been fully happy with the trombone sounds in the keyboard. I will be experimenting with your procedure in the future for what I hope to be a good trombone sound. Thanks, so much for taking the time and posting. I'm sure this will open up possibilities for others on the forum.

Best regards,

Mark

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#401295 - 04/11/15 10:33 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Hi Mark,

With easy edit, try adding the TREMOLO digital effect, see what you reckon. I think we're hearing a tremolo effect in the Soloist as much as we're hearing vibrato. I don't know how to add a delayed tremolo other than in the easy edit maybe Bill does.

It also sounds good if you add some pitch bend to the attack. I went to PITCH and on page 2 I've set ATK to 70 PEAK to -3 and DKY1 to 44 but it still needs more adjusting. I'm tempted to add a little pitch variation over a longer period but don't have time to try it out right now.

Regards,
Mike
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#401396 - 04/15/15 08:26 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Mike,

Here is one for you. Say you are in the key of C. Press the C key and the vibrato in Trumpet Soloist sounds like a good vibrato. Press the Db key and the vibrato sounds very slow. This is a good test. Now, press the Transpose button once to put you in the key of Db. Press the C key that sounded good in the key of C that is now a Db and it becomes the slow vibrato that was originally in Db in the key of C. One would think that the vibrato would be the same in the C key. I had assumed that whatever was assigned to each key in the keyboard remained the same regardless of changing the pitch of the key. The bad sounding vibrato follows right up the line with each transposition.

Mark

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#401412 - 04/15/15 11:01 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi Mark,
Just returned home and saw your email and this post referring to the Trumpet Soloist Vibrato....

I cannot reproduce the 'problem' to which you refer !! I've listened to the Trumpet Soloist sound with no Transpose, and the note C and Db sound essentially the same as far as the vibrato is concerned....
I tried transposing to Db and still cannot hear any difference in the vibrato, when pressing the 'C' and 'Db' note keys....

I wonder if Mike's KN7000 produces the effect you are hearing??

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#401424 - 04/15/15 02:15 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Hi Bill,

Thanks for your post. What you said is a real surprise. Maybe the company corrected this on later models and I have an earlier model. Do you have ANY notes in Trumpet Soloist that has a slow vibrato?

Mark

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#401427 - 04/15/15 02:38 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Hi Both,

Yes I hear the same as KitKat and the same again at Bb to B. I had noticed this before and I assume it is just the 'stretching' of the sample (try it an octave lower Bill). The KN7000 has very little memory and I would think that the technology of the time only allowed for speeding up and slowing down the sample a few places over the range in order to get the variation in pitch. C to Dd is a pretty good place to have a break in the sample as is Bb to B. It would be extremely annoying to most players if the break was at B to C or E to F.

This would only exhibit in an instrument that was recorded with vibrato rather than one where an electronic vibrato effect was applied.

This particular trumpet, I would say, would have been very challenging to program at the time with such little memory to work with.

Regards,
Mike
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#401430 - 04/15/15 02:58 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Bill,

Going up the scale and starting with G above middle C for a reasonable low note for Trumpet Soloist, is slow. Ab is slow, A is just slightly faster, Bb sounds OK, B is OK, C is OK, Db is very slow, D is slow, Eb is a bit faster, E is slightly slower than Eb, F is slightly faster than E, F# is a bit faster than F, G through Bb are on the slow side but acceptable, B is very slow above the good lower B, C above the good lower C is slow. Most of the notes following the higher C are slow but are acceptable.

I will be much interested in yours and others if these notes are like mine in Trumpet Soloist.

Mark

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#401431 - 04/15/15 03:01 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Hi Mike,

I posted the above before I read your post. Thanks

Mark

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#401435 - 04/15/15 07:44 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
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Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
ONE MORE THING --

It is nice to know that my post of Trumpet Soloist has shown interest. I think the problem with this variable vibrato on certain notes lies with the poor design of VIBRATO DEPTH in EASY EDIT. I say this because several months ago I wanted a very dramatic and fiery violin sound with a fast wide sounding vibrato. As you probably know, the vibrato speed in EASY EDIT does not work unless you at least use one number of VIBRATO DEPTH. To make a long story short, I got the perfect violin sound I wanted and saved it as a sound. I later tried to use it and I was very surprised that it sounded terrible. On certain notes, the vibrato practically came to a stop. Yet, in the EASY EDIT, it came across perfectly. Using Bill's method of touch sensitivity that he graciously posted might be different. I haven't had time to check that out with the violin sound I mentioned. Listening to Trumpet Soloist, I hear a lot of VIBRATO DEPTH in it. Guys, I think it is a lost cause to try and get this sound even across all notes.

Best regards,

Mark

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