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#400987 - 03/31/15 08:16 AM TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO
kitkat Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
The trumpet soloist in the KN7000 is a very realistic trumpet sound. Most of the vibrato notes are good but some our downright sloppy--bad sounding. The vibrato is so slow it sounds like an old car with a dead battery and trying to start it on a cold morning. Does anyone know how to edit this to where all the notes have an even vibrato? One would think going into Sound Edit changes could be made. Nothing works. I find that some of the sounds in the keyboard can't be changed in Sound Edit. I am referring to the Easy Edit of Sound Edit. I think this great trumpet sound was in the KN6000. You would think Technics would have done something about some of the notes having bad vibrato by the time the KN7000 came out.

Mark

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#400993 - 03/31/15 10:17 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Hi Kitkat,

There's a good reason for this... what you're hearing is the original player, playing with vibrato. This is why you can't edit the vibrato out. I agree that the vibrato on the Trumpet Soloist is too extreme for long, sustained notes, it works better in punchy, staccato passages where the starter motor begins to crank but doesn't get a chance to fully kick in laugh

Your way around this is to edit the Solo Trumpet NV patch which you can access in Sound Explorer. This patch is the original player, playing without vibrato (this is the NV designation - No Vibrato). You can then use Easy Edit to add a little delayed vibrato. Maybe add a little brilliance and play with the attack. You will achieve exactly the sound you're looking for without much trouble I assure you. It's not the same as a recording of the original player but, as you say, his lips were working overdrive that day, so if you do your own edit to the NV version I think you'll get just the right sound to suit you.

I've just given it a go on my KN7000 and it took about 20 seconds to get an improvement over and above the Trumpet Soloist (to my ears) that would be more suited to most pieces of music.

I think that when most of us bought our KN7000s we expected a complete 'work out of the box' package (and got it) without really realising the extents and ease of editing that we had acquired. In some ways, living with the keyboard for longer instead of buying the next (non-existent) upgrade has been a brilliant learning experience and much better value for money!

Let us know how you get on.
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Currently playing: KN7000 KN6500 KN5000 KN3000 KN2000 KN1000 KN901 KN800 P50 WSA1 AX7 EX30

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#400994 - 03/31/15 10:22 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: designserve]
designserve Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
PS - Technics didn't re-record the instruments for each model so the recordings you heard in the KN6000 (and KN5000 and more) are the same ones as the KN7000 but at a higher resolution on KN7000.

Whilst they are at a higher resolution, I can't personally tell the difference, I think it's a bit theoretical and not very relevant.

I don't think that my ears could tell much of a difference from my old B&O music centre (had for very cheap on eBay) than Technics new 50k HiFi either and for 50,000 I would want it to be able to play my vinyls so it isn't on my xmas list :)))))


Edited by designserve (03/31/15 10:25 AM)
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Currently playing: KN7000 KN6500 KN5000 KN3000 KN2000 KN1000 KN901 KN800 P50 WSA1 AX7 EX30

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#400995 - 03/31/15 10:32 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Hi Designserve,

Thanks for your response. It is exactly what I was planning on doing. Time is everything but I thought I would get opinions on the forum before doing your suggestion. Yesterday, I did go into TONE in Sound Edit and looked at the three trumpets that are ON and I will find the "vibrato trumpet" used for the three and see if I can get that very trumpet sound without vibrato. Replacing the trumpet to what is shown for the Trumpet Soloist should work or so, I hope. I want to keep all the filters, etc. the same to hopefully get the same trumpet sound and then go in to Easy Edit and add proper vibrato and delay and if necessary, brilliance to get the same quality sound.

What I don't understand is that playing the bad sounding vibrato note an octave higher, the vibrato is correct. I thought I could just move the octave range down and play in the higher range. It ends up the same slow vibrato when making this change. I find it strange that the same note an octave higher is correct.

Mark

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#400996 - 03/31/15 10:43 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Hi Mark,

I don't want to come across as a sound editing expert because I'm not, I just dabble a bit and have read a few articles.... but my guess is that the Trumpet Soloist was recorded closely in the higher register and the vibrato isn't as suitable when playing lower notes.

What you're intending to do sounds like the right way to go to me.

I did a recording a while back where I had set a few different trumpets, with touch-enabled effects, into different panel memories but then found that they were panned to different locations etc, so basing several different Trumpet sounds on one original setup is definitely the way to go. The result of my recording, even when I had adjusted the panning, sounded like different trumpet players playing alternate parts of the song so that went down the pan. Especially when I discovered that the sequencer hadn't recorded the aftertouch!

Cheers,
Mike
_________________________
Help to preserve information about Technics Keyboards.
http://TechnicsKN7000.com
http://KN7000.co.uk
http://TechnicsKeyboards.com
http://wsa1.technicskeyboards.com/
Currently playing: KN7000 KN6500 KN5000 KN3000 KN2000 KN1000 KN901 KN800 P50 WSA1 AX7 EX30

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#401067 - 04/02/15 02:54 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Hi Mike,

Just bringing you up to date about the Trumpet Soloist sound. There is no hope of improving the vibrato. What is interesting is that what is shown in TONE, there are three trumpets shown ON. Two and Three show Brt. Trumpet 2 and neither have any sound yet, the volumes are set quite high. Very strange. All that is heard is Vib. Trumpet in the first position. Using the closest sounding trumpet with no vibrato to Trumpet Soloist and going to Easy Edit to put in the vibrato, it sounds nothing less than terrible. It is too bad that one of the best sounds in the keyboard responds badly on certain notes. What I find very odd is that they don't all sound good with vibrato in the upper range. Even some sound OK in the lower range but in both upper and lower, there are notes that sound less than pleasing. I agree with you when saying that the only way to get around this is not sustain a note that has a slow vibrato. This means that one has to really do a lot of improvising around the melody of the song in order to fool the listener.

Mark

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#401073 - 04/03/15 01:58 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
HarryG Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 182
Loc: Germany
Hi Mark,

a trumpet with vibrator is an enrichment for certain songs. But if the effect is too strong, the sound is unnatural.

I have set 2 instrumental songs on YT. They are played with the Trumpet and the solo trumpet. I think the vibrator effect is good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw49IqQWW5o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP7nmqvONk4

In Music Stylist - Musical Category - Easy Listening - Ballad Orchestra - Brass Smoochy is also a useful Trumpet with vibrator effect.

Also in Music Stylist & trad folk - Mountain Music- Dolomiti Trumpet, you find a Trumpet with vibrator.

Another possibility would be the sound DSP - vibrato (Vibrato 1-8). If you "Depht" are altering, also changes the vibrator effect.


Edited by HarryG (04/03/15 02:02 AM)

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#401077 - 04/03/15 03:02 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: HarryG]
designserve Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
Harry,

Brilliant playing as ever!!

Mark,

I'll have a chance to take a look later on so I'l see whether I can add anything.

In the meantime, have a look at Phil's site where he has some examples of the original Technics recordings. He doesn't have the Trumpet soloist mp3 up but the first recording is probably the same player and instrument (you can find out by downloading Phil's spreadsheet).

http://www.allrightmusic.co.uk/Examples.html

This is also worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIM40ntxh1c

Send us a recording or video link or description to explain what you're wanting because the trumpet is very versatile but the low range is limited. You're wanting vibrato in a low register? For what style of music?

Cheers,
Mike
_________________________
Help to preserve information about Technics Keyboards.
http://TechnicsKN7000.com
http://KN7000.co.uk
http://TechnicsKeyboards.com
http://wsa1.technicskeyboards.com/
Currently playing: KN7000 KN6500 KN5000 KN3000 KN2000 KN1000 KN901 KN800 P50 WSA1 AX7 EX30

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#401127 - 04/04/15 07:23 PM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
kitkat Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 235
Loc: United States
Thanks, Harry and Mike for your links. Firstly, Harry, that is a beautiful trumpet sound you created. It is very much like what I created but my choice of vibrato is just a bit but not much faster than yours. However, the vibrato you chose is perfect for taps. What I have found is that no matter how perfect a trumpet sound I can create, it just doesn't come up to a believable trumpet solo sound as the sound in Trumpet Soloist. That built in delay, the tonal quality...is very natural sounding and believable compared to the perfect vibrato created in Sound Edit. Clearly, the Trumpet Soloist in the keyboard was made in the style of Harry James. It works! I just wish the vibrato were even throughout.

Mike, thanks for the links. Very interesting and makes one more aware of what the trumpet range and technique is all about. The link in allrightmusic is very interesting but it doesn't necessarily pertain to sounds in the KN7000 so one can't create these sounds. I think, as you do that the only way around this beautiful Trumpet Soloist in the KN7000 is to not sustain the bad notes that have vibrations in question. I get around them by being able to improvise the melody and not stay on them but briefly.

The Trumpet Soloist is ideal for playing standards in a slow ballad way. It is not suitable for an up-tune song.

Mark

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#401136 - 04/05/15 08:26 AM Re: TRUMPET SOLOIST VIBRATO [Re: kitkat]
designserve Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/14
Posts: 129
Loc: Wales, UK
You might be better off starting with the Soft Trumpet in Sound Explorer and brightening it up.

The link to allright music is to the actual samples used in the KN7000 but, as you say, there's no example of the Trumpet Soloist, there will be info about it (him) in the spreadsheet

Try some of the expansion card sounds there might be one that suits you.

Best wishes,
Mike
_________________________
Help to preserve information about Technics Keyboards.
http://TechnicsKN7000.com
http://KN7000.co.uk
http://TechnicsKeyboards.com
http://wsa1.technicskeyboards.com/
Currently playing: KN7000 KN6500 KN5000 KN3000 KN2000 KN1000 KN901 KN800 P50 WSA1 AX7 EX30

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