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#399573 - 02/15/15 11:06 AM The future of full audio styles
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6809
Full audio styles, like on the audya, and not the audio drums from Yamaha and Wersi, are a rruely remarkable step in style design. Yet its been six years since Ketron introduced them and its quite obvious that none of the others where able to recreate their own version of it. ( okay liosntracs tried, but they failed misserably at it, just as they failed on many other of their goals).

I dont think any of the other main contenders even considers copying the feature, as it will be a resource hog while most people are just happy with their midi styles. And with the audya being 6 years old, this gives ketron the chance to introduce a new arranger that sets the goal even higher. Lets hope they can do this later this year or early next year, as i am really curious as to what they can deliver next.


So whats your opinion, are true audio styles still the future, or will other more advanced mechanics make audio styles become obsolete? Because in the end audio will allways be less flexible then midi....
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#399575 - 02/15/15 12:02 PM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I believe the other companies aren't embracing full audio styles is because the design still has flaws...consider Ketron's need to substitute midi sounds for audio sounds when it comes to complex chords, and even after 6 years they still haven't figured out a way to get beyond this problem.

I think Yamaha is just dipping their toe in the water with their implementation of audio drum based styles...perhaps they'll continue with more of the same, or perhaps, like other features they brought out years ago (like Virtual Arranger Styles, and Interactive Accompaniment to name only two) they will be dropped.

Ian
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#399589 - 02/15/15 03:24 PM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4932
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Audio styles are a waste of resources as you cannot vary them, thus they sound the same each time that the loop plays, whereas Midi styles can add slight variations just like musicians do.

Combine Midi Styles with quality samples (Which match or better the sounds in the audio loop recordings) and audio styles become even more irrelevant.

Essentially a white elephant

Bill
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#399593 - 02/15/15 06:12 PM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: Bachus]
travlin'easy Online   happy
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14726
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Lighten up, Bill. Some of them sound really good, and for the most part they seem to quite useful for entertainers and vocalists. Like any style, much of the song depends upon a lot more than the style itself. The delivery of the song, the right hand riffs and, of course, the vocalist. The style is an integral part of any song, but those other factors are equally as important. As someone on this forum says "It's the player - not the keyboard!"

All the best,

Gary cool
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#399595 - 02/15/15 06:41 PM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: Bachus]
mirza Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1311
Loc: london,ontario.canada
Yamaha audio styles are just OK. Little bit better drums than the other styles.Basically just a waste of ram. In T5 they really didn't think this through. You could expand only with one audio drums expansions which it makes 8-9 styles more. Big deal in 2015. I would rather see they implement something like Superior Drummer, or BFD2...etc.. That way we could bring up to date any style we have, and for Yamaha there are a lot..
Would it be a really hard or a big deal to implement good drum mixer where in each style we could quickly mix all drum elements separately if needed.
Also there is no point if we can't load our own loops and make our own styles with them, or mix them with other styles.
Talk about why arrangers are not taken seriously. Lack of tools in them. Sure my T5 sounds really good as is, but it lacks so many simple tools that is not a professional instrument.It's a really good home player's instrument whether we like it or not.
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#399596 - 02/15/15 07:08 PM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
The Yamaha audio drum based styles are fine sounding, but it ends there, in my opinion. Editing is very limited, and even more are storage and sharing.

I suspect we will see them discontinued on later arrangers.

That's why I like my Tyros4 so much...no wasted space, and all styles are editable, storable and sharable.

Ketron's audio styles sound very good as long as you keep the chords simple, which is a big limitation for the more advanced player or the growing beginner.

Ian
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#399599 - 02/15/15 09:41 PM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: ianmcnll]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6809
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
The Yamaha audio drum based styles are fine sounding, but it ends there, in my opinion. Editing is very limited, and even more are storage and sharing.

I suspect we will see them discontinued on later arrangers.

That's why I like my Tyros4 so much...no wasted space, and all styles are editable, storable and sharable.

Ketron's audio styles sound very good as long as you keep the chords simple, which is a big limitation for the more advanced player or the growing beginner.

Ian


I specifically adressed the audio drums in Yamhaha latest styles not as audio styles... because they are just drum parts and not the other parts.. in my vision they are not audio styles at all, and only there to sattisfy the customers that wanted audio styles.. I dont think Yamaha ever intended to expand this feature to what Ketron is offering...

If you want Ketron audio files to work wiht the more advanced chords, you need to record tracks for each of these addvanced chords. Which means a helufalot more work..

Personally i agree with Bill, the future of realistic drums is in Virtuall drums with round robbin, and sure you can let a real drummer play those midi sequences for a better live feel, as long as you dont quantize your recordings, but it should not be neccesary as the round robbing takes care of the realisme and live feel

Same goes for style tracks, how many of the Yamaha styles use SA2 or ensemble voices? If modern VSTs have proven one thing, then it is that audio sequences are becomming a thing of the past. Midi is much more flexible and sounds just as good with the top of the line VSTs as audio


I the end its obvious to me what direction Yamaha is going, those audio drums might belong to the past soon, they sound good, but not good enough..

In the end, thats why i like my T5, Yamaha is taking the Tyros line in the same direction as the current Kontakt libraries.. and it really sounds great.



Edited by Bachus (02/15/15 09:44 PM)
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#399601 - 02/16/15 01:00 AM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I also recognize Yamaha and Korg for their use of Mega voices (Yamaha) and DNC sounds (Korg) in styles which has added much realism. When I compare Mega-voiced styles to the non-Mega-voiced type, there is a marked difference in the authenticity, with the former easily equaling an audio style, in my opinion.

I'm quite certain that Korg users would get the same outcome comparing DNC-based styles to their non-DNC counterparts.

I waited for the Tyros4 (although I could have got a demo Tyros3 at a great price) because of the former's ability to use SA/SA2 sounds in the styles.

Ketron has quite likely heavily invested in full audio styles, and therefore must continue to support them (despite the limitations mentioned above), and, it does give the player another choice in how styles are produced (and sound), however, I can't see either Yamaha or Korg (or Roland) going that route.

Ian
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#399602 - 02/16/15 02:03 AM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: ianmcnll]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41546
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
however, I can't see either Yamaha or Korg (or Roland) going that route.

Ian


No one know what direction they are going in the future arranger wise......could be forward or it certainly could be backwards also at this point...we'll see,.. confused1

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#399603 - 02/16/15 02:37 AM Re: The future of full audio styles [Re: Dnj]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6809
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
however, I can't see either Yamaha or Korg (or Roland) going that route.

Ian


No one know what direction they are going in the future arranger wise......could be forward or it certainly could be backwards also at this point...we'll see,.. confused1


Nobody knows, but Yamaha does tend to listen to the insiders of the european arranger market, the main dealers are regularly asked for their input..

I loved the audio styles of my Audya 4, but not a single seccond did i miss them on my Tyros 5. And i think thats where most of these dealers will agree with me.

On top of that, Yamaha research will be not devote researches to arranger keyboards alone, if they can also research things that will bennefit all their instruments... Its also one reason why the arranger part of the Tyros kept fairly basic since T1 while the sounds and voices kept expanding.. And to be fair, the only thing really missing in the arranger part compared to the competition is a chord sequencer. All my other wishes would be innovations beyound whats currently possible, and audio styles is not one of those wishes.

however i dont expect a huge update to the style engine in the upcomming tyros model. But i do expect upgrades on the weakest sounds of the T5. 1) Piano, maybe the piano room features of the CVP and much more detailed samples and physical string resonance engine. 2) synth world, some virtuall versions of the great synthesizers of the past. 3) orchestral mode... Which would be and advancement of the ensemble feature, but allow for more then 4 instruments, much like The LASS expansion of Kontakt..

In the end this will only be possible if they finally make that needed upgrade to their processing power and Memmory structure...

I think people at Yamaha are quite happy with where their current styles are.
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