Are there other keyboards, other than arrangers, that can play styles? I know full size keyboards such as Clavinova's can. But what about synthesizers...workstations etc?
Again, this is just a question of curiosity.
Tx
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#397764 - 01/05/1502:52 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
DonM
Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Well, by definition (I think) Arrangers are keyboards that play styles--real-time backgrounds that let you "arrange" songs on the fly. If a synth or workstation plays styles, it is also an arranger. Clavinovas are arrangers in big cabinets. A lot of the distinction is just the terminology used. You can, of course, use an arranger module such as Roland BK7 or Ketron Audya 5 or Midjay, and control them with any midi-capable keyboard.
#397766 - 01/05/1503:35 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
abacus
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5347
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Although they weren’t called styles back then, it all started in the late 60s/early 70s when manufactures started adding auto accompaniment features to their organs, eventually the arranger keyboard developed which gave you all the easy play features of the organ in a light and cheap keyboard package.
Styles are in essence just Midi Loops so can be included on any electronic keyboard instrument, however because of the limited capabilities of arrangers (Just one keyboard with minimal real time controls) styles have become paramount to get a decent sounding performance out of them. (Manufactures have always designed arrangers for the Home Hobby Market rather than pro musicians, as it allows them to sound great with minimal effort)
Hope this helps
Bill
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#397768 - 01/05/1505:03 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy
Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15559
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Bill, doesn't everyone want to sound great with minimal effort? And, as I've stated many times in the past, what exactly defines a pro musician? I mean, the last time I checked I was still getting paid more than anyone in my region for playing music and singing. So, whether I use a guitar, fiddle, harmonica, or a kazoo, if I get paid, I'm a pro musician/entertainer. If I did this for fun and didn't get paid, I guess I would not be a pro, but what the Hell do I know? I've only been making my full time living at this for just over 20 years.
I sincerely believe manufacturers design arranger keyboards for the largest and most diverse audiences - not some tiny fragment of the music playing world. If they didn't, they would not be in business very long. The percentage of so-called pro musicians that purchase ALL musical instruments is so infinitesimally small that no one in their right mind would bother to target that consumer group. Take a close look at guitars. Walk into any music store and the vast majority of consumers purchasing guitars are young people ranging 15 to 45 years of age - not pro guitar players who probably average 65 years of age. I would venture a guess that the percentage of pro guitar players that purchases guitars in a music shop would be less than 1 in 1,000, and that's being conservative. Same goes for drums, saxophones, trumpets, pianos, you name it - it's all the same. And, those so called pros always seem to be looking for some sort of discounted price. Who in their right mind would cater to them?
In reality, all arranger keyboards that are played by someone for money are pro keyboards. It's not rocket science - it's a fact. Whether or not the keyboard is red, black, green or bright orange has no bearing on anything. Neither does it make a bit of difference if it weighs 200 pounds or just 20 pounds. Who really cares if it has built-in speakers or not? No one in the audiences, that's for sure, and the audiences are the folks who essentially pay the tab. So, there really is no such thing as a pro arranger keyboard, anymore than there is a pro organ, trumpet, cello, tuba, harmonica, etc... It all depends upon the player, which has always been the case. And, we all want to sound fantastic with the least amount of effort - at least I would like to sound better than Uncle Dave or Don Mason, but that ain't gonna happen. Well, at least I'm prettier than they are.;)
Gary
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#397772 - 01/05/1505:18 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
ianmcnll
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I love using "styles" (Roland coined the term many years ago)...especially since they can be edited to suit my manner of play...using styles also allows the player the freedom to use his own chord substitutions, and, today's arrangers with their excellent chord recognition (including inversions) really give the player very few restrictions.
We've come a long way from the boom-ticky-ticky style engines of yesteryear.
Midi files definitely have their uses, and although I'm not one to use them, they are unquestionably another tool in the arranger's box of tricks.
And, the Arranger Keyboard is just another tool in the keyboard player's kit....I call it the "Swiss Army Knife" of keyboards.
The Arranger Keyboard's biggest detractors and critics are usually players unable, unwilling, or too lazy to adapt to the playing style needed to bring the best out in the instrument.
As I was telling a friend earlier this evening, having done hundreds of clinics and demos I have learned that many competent (and usually well seasoned, and perhaps stuck in their ways) keyboard/piano/organ players can't adapt very well to the system needed to play an arranger in "style" mode...it's a combination of "dumbing down" whereas you have to play all chord types and inversions in a limited space, and "wisening up" in that you really have to know your chord voicings well in order to play anything reasonably complex.
At the same time you have to have the skill/knowledge to pick appropriate voices in the RH and play them with the proper inflections.
Witness musicians like Martin Harris play the arranger like this:
and you quickly see and hear just how much power and expression the instrument is capable of giving the player...and Marty is a PLAYER!
One time the Arranger was basically for hobbyists, but not anymore...lots of pros have wisely adapted to the instrument...I know in my own case, it has brought me all kinds of work, both on stage, and in the studio.
#397773 - 01/05/1506:06 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3583
Loc: Middletown, DE
Well written.
Today's arrangers are not as redundant as yesterdays, and in the hands of Martin above in full arranger play mode or partial arranger play mode as below with manual bass ....
... you can quickly see how home players or professionals can benefit from this amazing instrument.
Here is an example of a style that was designed around a specific song but flexible enough for use in other 6/8 style formatted songs ... being used in a studio by professionals:-
#397775 - 01/05/1506:32 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
ianmcnll
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Instead of "pro" and "amateur" (or "Home player"), I've always categorized players as "advanced", "beginner", or somewhere in between.
The term "pro", as Gary says above, simply means a person (or player) who is paid for his performance.
Some "pros" aren't even advanced players, but, due to a combination of "entertainer" skills, and, either being able to play enough good basic chords in one key (and use the transposer), or use SMF for most of the performance, they certainly manage to get paid (and sometimes very well) for their work and are quite successful.
I also know many "home players" who are incredibly talented and are monster players, but just don't want to perform in public or make performing their means of making money.
#397790 - 01/06/1502:31 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: travlin'easy]
abacus
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5347
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: travlin'easy
Bill, doesn't everyone want to sound great with minimal effort? And, as I've stated many times in the past, what exactly defines a pro musician? I mean, the last time I checked I was still getting paid more than anyone in my region for playing music and singing. So, whether I use a guitar, fiddle, harmonica, or a kazoo, if I get paid, I'm a pro musician/entertainer. If I did this for fun and didn't get paid, I guess I would not be a pro, but what the Hell do I know? I've only been making my full time living at this for just over 20 years.
I sincerely believe manufacturers design arranger keyboards for the largest and most diverse audiences - not some tiny fragment of the music playing world. If they didn't, they would not be in business very long. The percentage of so-called pro musicians that purchase ALL musical instruments is so infinitesimally small that no one in their right mind would bother to target that consumer group. Take a close look at guitars. Walk into any music store and the vast majority of consumers purchasing guitars are young people ranging 15 to 45 years of age - not pro guitar players who probably average 65 years of age. I would venture a guess that the percentage of pro guitar players that purchases guitars in a music shop would be less than 1 in 1,000, and that's being conservative. Same goes for drums, saxophones, trumpets, pianos, you name it - it's all the same. And, those so called pros always seem to be looking for some sort of discounted price. Who in their right mind would cater to them?
In reality, all arranger keyboards that are played by someone for money are pro keyboards. It's not rocket science - it's a fact. Whether or not the keyboard is red, black, green or bright orange has no bearing on anything. Neither does it make a bit of difference if it weighs 200 pounds or just 20 pounds. Who really cares if it has built-in speakers or not? No one in the audiences, that's for sure, and the audiences are the folks who essentially pay the tab. So, there really is no such thing as a pro arranger keyboard, anymore than there is a pro organ, trumpet, cello, tuba, harmonica, etc... It all depends upon the player, which has always been the case. And, we all want to sound fantastic with the least amount of effort - at least I would like to sound better than Uncle Dave or Don Mason, but that ain't gonna happen. Well, at least I'm prettier than they are.;)
Gary
Hi Gary
I did not say an arranger cannot be used by a pro, just what that they were specifically designed for, (A real pro could get a great performance out of virtually any keyboard)
The main difference between a home hobby player and a pro musician is that, a home hobby player practices until he gets it right (With or without the easy play features) whereas a pro player practices until he can’t get it wrong. (Even if problems occur during the performance)
When your young (And easily impressionable) you usually want to sound like your idol, so you buy whatever he plays thinking you can do the same, however in most cases purchases find they can’t and so it gets put in the cupboard. (Manufactures know this so target this market) Arrangers came from the home hobby organ market and probably about 99% of arrangers sold go to this market, so it is not cost effective to add pro features to them for a 1% market.
The difference between a pro instrument and home instrument is the way they work, with a home unit you press a button and everything is done for you (Exact sound setups, styles, mixer setting etc.) whereas as a synth/workstation gives you high quality basics which you meld to their own style. (Listen to most arranger players and all you here is the same (Your just listening to the keyboard) whereas with a synth/workstation everybody sounds individual)
As usual there are always crossovers, but by and large the above is correct. If you listen to top musicians, they got there by being individual, not copying someone else. (Something that is very difficult (But not impossible) to do with an arranger as you just have one keyboard and minimal real time control)
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
And, as I've stated many times in the past, what exactly defines a pro musician? I mean, the last time I checked I was still getting paid more than anyone in my region for playing music and singing. So, whether I use a guitar, fiddle, harmonica, or a kazoo, if I get paid, I'm a pro musician/entertainer. If I did this for fun and didn't get paid, I guess I would not be a pro, but what the Hell do I know? I've only been making my full time living at this for just over 20 years. 
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