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#394232 - 10/04/14 10:46 AM Tyros woes over europe
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Today i was at one of the biggest european resellers of Tyros, to pick up my MFC10 pedals and to playtest the Roland FA08, and i got to talk with the salesman, about how good the FA08 complemented the T5, and about the sheer succes of the T5(67)

And now i know that there is a downside to the succes of the T5... Overhere people trade in their old unit for good money, when they buy a new one, this is part of the success of the many newly sold arrangers... But...

Now they sit with more then 50 T4s, and over 30 T3s, which they want to sell at prices of €1800 and €2800 to get their investments back. While you can buy a 76 keys T5 for less then €3800. And there are absolutely no customers that want to spend that much money on a used T4.

Prices of used gear overhere in Holland and the rest of europe are way to high, there is just to much used gear stocked in backrooms and cellars..


Much of the home market is shifting to the digital pianos with build in arrangers like the Yamaha CVP range.. Where grandpa of 65 is playing a Tyros, his daughter and her kids play a CVP...
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#394245 - 10/04/14 02:24 PM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: Bachus]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Eventually they'll just blow them all out on ebay or somewhere...no problem...someone will gain and someone will take a loss ...its business......especially when the T6 comes out....




Edited by Dnj (10/04/14 02:25 PM)

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#394246 - 10/04/14 02:25 PM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: Dnj]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Dnj
Eventually they'll just blow them all out on ebay or somewhere...no problem...someone will gain and someone will take a loss ...its business......especially when the T6 comes out....

http://www.4smileys.com/smileys/cool-smileys/smiley-with-glasses32.gif


Currently the price of T4 on the dutch Ebay called marktplaats is around 2000€, they cant sell at that price.. They will loose money..
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#394247 - 10/04/14 03:01 PM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
The way I look at it Bachus, is that if you are happy with your Tyros5-76, what difference does it make if the re-sellers will lose or not lose money on Tyros4?

Just focus on your own happiness and enjoy your new keyboard...you are one of the very lucky ones able to afford a nice new TOTL arranger, so simply be grateful and spend your time focusing on savoring your new instrument.

Those re-seller guys are gambling and speculating on older gear all the time, and sometimes they win and sometimes they don't...in any case, it's not your problem.

Why not just enjoy that fact that you are a winner, and do some recording and send me some of your experiments...if you wish.

Congrats once again,

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#394248 - 10/04/14 03:10 PM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: Bachus]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Currently the price of T4 on the dutch Ebay called marktplaats is around 2000€, they cant sell at that price.. They will loose money..


I agree with Ian ...don't worry about it enjoy what your playing, who cares if they lose money it's part of the game they'll make it up in otherways. ....
unless your not happy with your arranger at the moment for some reason?

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#394259 - 10/04/14 11:47 PM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: ianmcnll]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
I am not worried..

Its just a fact, and i must say, seeing over 80 Ts piled in a dim lit room kind of surprised me...

No, i am not woried, but i realise this will impact the market, as obviously the same problem excistst everywhere in europe... Its an indication that indeed no more new players are entering the market, and it will definately have consequences for T6 in the future, i predict that upgrading will become a lot more expensive...


On the other side of things, buying used gear will become a lot cheepe, if the market plummets, because the current situation rminds most of the 80s when the home organ market in europe cracked, and you could almost get 3 year old top of the line organs for free.

I think the current market will affect us all in the future...

Espescially if you look at the workstation synth market, where you can buy a new workstation almost identical to the top model for under $1000 .... (Krome, MOXF, FA06) it indicates also the new prices of totl arrangers might drop...

Imagine Yamaha selling a psr s960 with sa2 voices, organ world and ensembles for €1200.. What do you think will happen?
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#394260 - 10/04/14 11:57 PM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: Bachus]
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
It won't affect any of us if we buy an instrument at the price we are happy with because we want to keep that instrument as an instrument and not as an investment . It's the continual buying stuff because it's new that is the issue . I have had my PA1X for coming up to ten years now and have not mastered it yet . As I get better at playing and arranging and understanding it's features ( not in a geeky way ) but as a musician ,it simply becomes the most logical first choice to me . And in a couple years I might pick up a T4 for under a grand because it would be a steal!

There is no problem that I can see .

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#394265 - 10/05/14 02:36 AM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
The problem occurs as oversupply of used arrangers means the trade in prices will drop, making it more expensive to buy a new model, which it turn means less will be bought and the manufactures will be less inclined to develop new models. This is what happened to organs and why Yamaha pulled the plug for the US & European market. (If enough sales could be proven Yamaha would have no problem re-introducing organs to US & Europe)

At the recent Hemsby keyboard festival I was talking to the manufacturers and dealers, and (Off the record) all said that arranger sales were on the slide with the main market being to the 70+ who themselves only usually use about 2% of their current instruments. (All manufactures were also looking to diversify into a different type of instrument to current arrangers, although I couldn’t prise any further details out of them)

Another point I noted was on the demonstrations of new features (The new Yamaha ensemble voices as an example) as even though well explained (Including showing how they worked on large projection screens) looking round at the number of blank faces in the crowd was shocking. (Talking to a lot of those that attended (Thus I cannot confirm its accuracy) I was informed that a lot of T5 buyers had actually sold them and gone back to T4 as the T5 just went over their head)

Enjoy arrangers while you can, as if the trend continues in future years they will become a niche market just like organs did. (Niche markets (Small sales) means they become expensive to produce and thus prices become expensive)

Bill
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Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#394267 - 10/05/14 04:36 AM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: spalding1968]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: spalding1968
It won't affect any of us if we buy an instrument at the price we are happy with because we want to keep that instrument as an instrument and not as an investment . It's the continual buying stuff because it's new that is the issue . I have had my PA1X for coming up to ten years now and have not mastered it yet . As I get better at playing and arranging and understanding it's features ( not in a geeky way ) but as a musician ,it simply becomes the most logical first choice to me . And in a couple years I might pick up a T4 for under a grand because it would be a steal!

There is no problem that I can see .


I can't see any problems either, but, anything's possible.

I'll probably keep my Tyros4 for at least another 5 years, maybe more, as no matter what features get added to the new models, they certainly won't be anything I just have to have.

I have friends still happily using PSR-9000 and PSR-3K's as there is software available that can convert newer styles to work very well in older instruments.

The main problem would be hardware wearing out and the eventual unavailability of NOS (new old stock) replacement parts, otherwise, like you and others have discovered, you don't need to buy every new model that comes out to be a happy arranger player.

Plus, I stopped looking into the murky distant future a long time ago, and just deal with life and its fluctuations on a much more manageable scale, and, I make it a point not to pay any attention to the arm-chair marketing "experts" and their lame predictions.

Full day ahead today, Worth...getting music material together (including tweaking some styles) for some recording which will start as soon as my new volume pedal arrives...I'll send you some tunes.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#394270 - 10/05/14 06:19 AM Re: Tyros woes over europe [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
The problem occurs as oversupply of used arrangers means the trade in prices will drop, making it more expensive to buy a new model, which it turn means less will be bought and the manufactures will be less inclined to develop new models. This is what happened to organs and why Yamaha pulled the plug for the US & European market. (If enough sales could be proven Yamaha would have no problem re-introducing organs to US & Europe)

At the recent Hemsby keyboard festival I was talking to the manufacturers and dealers, and (Off the record) all said that arranger sales were on the slide with the main market being to the 70+ who themselves only usually use about 2% of their current instruments. (All manufactures were also looking to diversify into a different type of instrument to current arrangers, although I couldn’t prise any further details out of them)

Another point I noted was on the demonstrations of new features (The new Yamaha ensemble voices as an example) as even though well explained (Including showing how they worked on large projection screens) looking round at the number of blank faces in the crowd was shocking. (Talking to a lot of those that attended (Thus I cannot confirm its accuracy) I was informed that a lot of T5 buyers had actually sold them and gone back to T4 as the T5 just went over their head)

Enjoy arrangers while you can, as if the trend continues in future years they will become a niche market just like organs did. (Niche markets (Small sales) means they become expensive to produce and thus prices become expensive)

Bill



Maybe Bill, the time is there to build TOTL keyboards... That have arranger features on top of all the other workstation features....

Take for example yamaha, ghey allready have so many styles available, that they can build an arranger intoo the Next Motif, almost withouth any cost... Becaus they allready have the content in their database


The same goes for Roaland and Korg... If they can build a workstation for both arranger as synth players... They can cut development and lower prices...


Edited by Bachus (10/05/14 06:20 AM)
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