Just have a look at this video, it clearly shows one of the things missing on todays top model arranger keyboards... And in my opinion, its one of the reasons the youth never chooses arrangers to produce dance music...
There are no freely assignable knobs on our arrangers, if you add them, you have 8 parameters of your sound with direct acess, espescially with synth sounds this comes in very handy because this is exactly how you play synth sounds, you tweak those lfos decays and dsp effects in real time to make them come alive instead of just being death electronic sounds..
No, the sliders will not work for real time action, as will up down buttons, .....
Things like this are needed if you want arrangers to grow even further..... Its one of the things that could pull in new players..
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
Registered: 05/26/99
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Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Bachus, first.....that was the longest demo I had to listen to.. ..Hey I grew up with Dean, Elvis and Frank
I have a G70 that pretty much can duplicate what I heard on the demo..I think young players overall, don't have any idea what some arranger keyboards can do...Is it practical for a "trance" player to buy a $3,000 arranger...maybe not, there are other options to produce this type of "music". .Maybe a cheap controller and a DAW with VST's and loops..is all you need.
Let me explain what I know to be true.. Depending on the waveform (PCM)..selecting a synth sound on a G70 or E80 (there are many rhythmic looped synth sounds, on board). Although they don't send out to midi, the sliders, and other controls are flexible enough to control the internal sounds.
The sliders control CS1, vibrato,delay, rate, dept, attack , decay, release, cutoff, and resonance..for any sound.(in realtime) On looped samples the rate is very effective for pulsating of sounds, and the filter responds well too.. It doesn't end with the sliders...you have D-beam control, pitch and mod control..and most important, great insert effects that can be controlled in real time.. Now that I got your attention...You can layer 6 synth sounds that can respond to these controls..crossfades, and aftertouch too.
If you are a synth guy, there is plenty to make you happy with a 7 year old arranger..
#393090 - 09/11/1410:40 AMRe: Missing in the action
[Re: Fran Carango]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Fran Carango
Bachus, first.....that was the longest demo I had to listen to.. ..Hey I grew up with Dean, Elvis and Frank
I have a G70 that pretty much can duplicate what I heard on the demo..I think young players overall, don't have any idea what some arranger keyboards can do...Is it practical for a "trance" player to buy a $3,000 arranger...maybe not, there are other options to produce this type of "music". .Maybe a cheap controller and a DAW with VST's and loops..is all you need.
Let me explain what I know to be true.. Depending on the waveform (PCM)..selecting a synth sound on a G70 or E80 (there are many rhythmic looped synth sounds, on board). Although they don't send out to midi, the sliders, and other controls are flexible enough to control the internal sounds.
The sliders control CS1, vibrato,delay, rate, dept, attack , decay, release, cutoff, and resonance..for any sound.(in realtime) On looped samples the rate is very effective for pulsating of sounds, and the filter responds well too.. It doesn't end with the sliders...you have D-beam control, pitch and mod control..and most important, great insert effects that can be controlled in real time.. Now that I got your attention...You can layer 6 synth sounds that can respond to these controls..crossfades, and aftertouch too.
If you are a synth guy, there is plenty to make you happy with a 7 year old arranger..
I know, the soundsource in the video is entirely the Tyros... Offcourse any arranger can perform like this with the right style..
Its all about limitless knobs, that are a huge advancement over sliders/faders Each time i change programs, the sliders stay in the same position (unless they are very expensive motor controlled faders) each time i touch a slider, the value changes to the slider value, creating an unwanted and very audible jump of the controlled vallue... This does not happen with limitless knobs..
On top of that... Knobs give an entirely different feeling then sliders...
To get more people interested in arrangers, the interface needs to change, without throwing away the things that current arranger players love...
And no, i dont think younger players are better off with their current day computer set ups.. They are good for creating rythms, but not for creating music..
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Bachus, my point was that there are some arrangers that already are capable to edit synth tones in real time.
Actually , the sliders on the G70/E80 have an advantage over limitess knobs...not only do they "not" remember the settings when you change a tone (just like knobs), you have to move to the factory setting before they are active (No surprises)..the advantage is you can see the exsisting settings on the screen, before you edit,and they will show the results on the screen too.
No it is not a complete editing tool, but it also does a lot more than any controller (arranger).. There are also midi control apps for android, I use Midi Commander..
#393092 - 09/11/1402:04 PMRe: Missing in the action
[Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Perhaps we'll see active knobs on a higher end arranger in the future, if the companies feel the demand is high enough, and they will still make their already good profit (the latter is more important to them, of course).
Yamaha has recently been putting "active" controller knobs on their lower end instruments (arrangers) like PSR-E433 that can be assigned to affect filter cutoff and/or resonance (plus several other parameters) which can be done live on either voices and styles or both. (See short demo below)
We have a Yamaha PSR-E423 in the studio for quick digital synth sounds that have analog control, and the instrument was very inexpensive considering what it does. Some of the sounds, especially when layered, are pretty huge and have lots of motion and character, and the filter can even be made to self-oscillate. Strings, brasses and pads are especially affected. The knob movements can be recorded in the instrument's rather limited sequencer.
Maybe they are testing the waters and might consider these types of controls on the higher end models?
Certainly, it would be a good thing, in my opinion.
#393094 - 09/11/1403:03 PMRe: Missing in the action
[Re: Bachus]
ianmcnll
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
We don't use the E423 for "electronic music"...it works real well on tunes from the 70's and 80's that have analog synths (especially with filter sweeps) in them. The relatively inexpensive little arranger does an admirable job of mimicking the older analog synthesis, and that's just what we were looking for. It's really quick and intuitive, especially to those of us who grew up with analog synths. It's another "player's" instrument due to it's real time controls...the knobs work great and are not cheap feeling in any way.
The PSR-E433 is the newer model and has several extra features, but still retains the knobs.
I rarely listen to, or perform, Trance/Rap or any of the newer stuff...it just doesn't appeal to me, and I now have the luxury of choice.
Different strokes...
Ian
PS...I am in complete agreement with Bachus in having hardware knobs (and sliders) on a future arranger...controls that will affect the sound in real time, and those controls being able to transmit info over MIDI.
#393103 - 09/11/1405:39 PMRe: Missing in the action
[Re: travlin'easy]
ianmcnll
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: travlin'easy
Ian, I tried one out at the music store - it sounded fantastic. Not enough options for me, though.
Gary
Me neither, Gary, if it was to be used solely as an arranger. Mainly, it's the lack of an On Bass fingering option. If it wasn't for that, I could easily do a gig with it.
I had been sent one for use as a demo, and I was immediately very impressed with the sound, especially how musically (and smoothly) they responded to the filter/resonance controls.
We use it for the sounds and their ability to be controlled via the live editing knobs, and, of the tones, it's mostly brass, strings and pad sounds, although a few of the other voices, organ and bass are also very nice when processed.
Occasionally we'd use a style or one of the arps, but mainly it's the live/active analog style control over the voices that makes it so valuable.
#393109 - 09/11/1411:20 PMRe: Missing in the action
[Re: Bachus]
Nigel Admin
Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6483
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Or maybe make the realtime controls an add on accessory like the PG-800 controller was for the Roland JX8P. Then people wouldn't have to pay for something they don't need but it would be available for those that want it. Plus it would provide the manufacturer some extra income to give them incentive to offer it.
#393114 - 09/12/1401:52 AMRe: Missing in the action
[Re: ianmcnll]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Perhaps we'll see active knobs on a higher end arranger in the future, if the companies feel the demand is high enough, and they will still make their already good profit (the latter is more important to them, of course).
Yamaha has recently been putting "active" controller knobs on their lower end instruments (arrangers) like PSR-E433 that can be assigned to affect filter cutoff and/or resonance (plus several other parameters) which can be done live on either voices and styles or both. (See short demo below)
We have a Yamaha PSR-E423 in the studio for quick digital synth sounds that have analog control, and the instrument was very inexpensive considering what it does. Some of the sounds, especially when layered, are pretty huge and have lots of motion and character, and the filter can even be made to self-oscillate. Strings, brasses and pads are especially affected. The knob movements can be recorded in the instrument's rather limited sequencer.
Maybe they are testing the waters and might consider these types of controls on the higher end models?
Certainly, it would be a good thing, in my opinion.
Ian
This video shows exactly my points.... It shows how some knobs and a good arpeggiator add a lot to an arranger... Real time controll, combined with a perfected workflow/ui.
Myabe they should add a few knobs to the T6, including a synth section comaparble to the current organ section of T5 and an arpeggiator ...
Just a few knobs, that get assigned the most usable parameters for every sound you have selected....
It would allow indeed for some lovely synth playing...
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
#393115 - 09/12/1401:58 AMRe: Missing in the action
[Re: Nigel]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Nigel
Or maybe make the realtime controls an add on accessory like the PG-800 controller was for the Roland JX8P. Then people wouldn't have to pay for something they don't need but it would be available for those that want it. Plus it would provide the manufacturer some extra income to give them incentive to offer it.
Indisagree.... Adding the physicall knobs does not cost anything, however creating the user interface and software to make these knobs an integral part of the software is what costs the money... These costs stay the same, wether you add an external unit or just a few knobs on the arranger
Inam pretty sure, they can make those knobs a tool everyone will use on their arrangers... And as said, adding physicall 4 knobs and lights would be an investment of less then €10 in parts.... Its the software that will cost, .....
I think if they wanted to make the T6 even better, then this feature combined with some synth emulators would be a superb step in that direction...
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
..Hey I grew up with Dean, Elvis and Frank 
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