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#361249 - 02/13/13 04:17 AM How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41912
drums


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#361265 - 02/13/13 09:30 AM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Dnj]
Tonewheeldude Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1529
hehe, I thought there was something fishy about those S950 audio drums. wink

Out of interest I asked Robert Messier how Ketron went about producing Audio Styles for the Audya. He said he would write some pieces of 'generic music' specifically written to inspire the drummer to produce all the arranger parts, fills and stuff he will need for the completed style.

Once in the studio, rather than asking for a few bars of a swing, bossa etc, the drummer wears haeadphones and plays along to the music. From there the drum track is split up into the relavent parts before the rest of the style is assembled.

He said they use different drummers for different styles, for instance the Swing drummer is an experienced (and mature) Big Band drummer.

They also have a few different Guitarists. The acoustic guitarist is a Guy named Toyo (at least thats how his name sounded) then there is another guitaris for rock and another for classical. These all have to record the audio guitar loops, which must be pretty challlenging.

It can cost up to $20,000 to develop a completely new style using this method. But of course there are alternatives for us at home.


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#361275 - 02/13/13 01:14 PM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Dnj]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
And there, my friends, is the kiss of death for audio styles. You got to sell a LOT of styles (in an environment where there is no copy protection for them) to pay for a $20,000 style cost. Seriously... $20K for a style, several hundred styles in an arranger... who's going to do this, other than for the ROM styles (the sale of the arranger is what offsets the style development costs)..?

NEW styles are the lifeblood of an arranger. If all you get are the ROM styles and a few new ones every year or so, then have to sell it and get a new one just to have the latest big batch of ROM styles, sorry... just not interested.

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#361283 - 02/13/13 02:07 PM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Dnj]
Tonewheeldude Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1529
Haha...I almost posted more information, but thought it would be fun to wait for you to post that smile

As you know very well now, this was covered in the other thread by AJ who explained it in some detail.

Roberts method is just how Ketron chose to do the styles, there is no reason why you couldn't use pre recorded drums loops from any source and use them with your own skills as a style writer - or even use converted styles and add your audio loops into the drums. This is the method I would have thought third party style houses would have used. I think they are just too lazy to be bothered with it when they can churn out 2 bar midi styles like there is no tomorrow.

Doesn't matter how many times you say Audio drums are dead they are absolutley here to stay just as much as CD's were back in the late 1980s. A large number of people just like you said they wouldn't catch on as you cant record on them smile I wonder, do you still use a Sony Walkman with a 90 minute cassete to record your music? :p

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#361294 - 02/13/13 04:29 PM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Dnj]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
So where are all these audio styles? If production of them from audio loops is so easy, just where the heck are they all?

You've got one important issue about making commercial styles from loop libraries... Copyright. Most licenses for these libraries allow using them for music production, either commercial or personal. But most of the agreements don't allow you to use them in another commercial product for sale. So where does that leave style production? $20K a pop?

Sorry, but look at the market. Ketron is a niche product, virtually unavailable in the US (a tiny handful of dealers), and pretty much at the bottom of the totem pole compared to the Big 3. Yamaha are the ONLY other arranger company that have gone the audio loop route, and have hardly made a significant splash... The jury is definitely still out, as far as the vast majority of arranger users are concerned.

I wonder... do you still have your Betamax? I'm afraid the rest of us went with the (debatably inferior) VHS system.

Audio drums are dead the minute that arranger manufacturers increase the sample ROM to VSTi sizes, or allow SSD streaming of ROM (like Kronos's already do), and, as our shootout has shown, aren't so markedly superior that every disadvantage of them doesn't outweigh them. And that's just with today's tiny ROM size kits.

Tell you what. Outsell Yamaha, Korg or Roland, THEN tell me they are here to stay, OK? LOL

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#361316 - 02/14/13 01:18 AM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Dnj]
Tonewheeldude Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1529
Diki, I will make one more post so as not to ignore you, but thats it, because you have totally made up your mind and its getting boring:

1) Henni, if your reading this...how many styles do you have on your Audya...roughly. But, Diki, as already mentioned, with Ketrons live styles (averaging 8 bars per arranger part) you don't need so many styles because you don't get bored with the same old repeating midi file. Its why ketron users don't need to change instruments every 18 months or so and why a 4 year old Audya is still worth more than twice as much as T3 (which was the same price when new.) and more than a used T4.

2) The stereotypical forum user often just ignores the bits they dont like. Many times now you have been told that we can use audio loops from just about anywhere (thats if as a user you want to edit or create styles), the live musicians route is the one Ketron went for, but as other manufacturers move to audio styles the 3rd party style houses will probably use audio loops for drums created from Virtual Drums instead of live musicians. And guess what...they can charge more for doing so.

3) WOW! talk about ancient technology...VHS + Betamax, they died with Midi styles 15 years ago!! I mostly use my tv providers catch up service but otherwise I have Hard Disk recording. I haven't even used the DVD/RW for 6 or 7 years.

4) SSD streaming of ROM? That phrase doesn't make any sense. Ketron already have HD (or SSD) streaming technology, the others will catch up when they decide to add live audio styles properly. And the shootout showed that it is possible to have nice quality Midi drums, but it is severely limited by the poor quality and lazy style writing of the manufacturer as you pointed out - its possible to make better styles but nobody is doing it.

5) Outsell Yamaha and Korg? Across Europe they might already outsell them, I don't know for sure as just about every bar and restaurant on the continent has a Ketron player in the corner (you never see Korg or Yamaha in those places). in the UK we are on a level footing with Korg but have an army of 'Tyros' (Novice or Beginner players) that buy Yamaha, it would be nice to outsell them here and we are noticing a big dissatisfaction from owners who are not seeing anything really new from the other manufacturers, but in the meantime Ketron owners can be very smug in the knowledge there keyboard is the best on the market.

So thats it, I respectfully withdraw from this discussion as I have said all there is to be said.

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#361319 - 02/14/13 02:06 AM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Tonewheeldude]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3297
Loc: South Africa
Hi all,

I think I have now more than 30 000 styles (thirty thousand styles). I think Diki has some personal gripe with Ketron, in any case, that's how I see his attitude. The more we tell him we've got both midi & audio, the more he critisizes Audio.

Heck, you can have an Audya and not touch an audio style if that's the way you feel. But I'm sure most will use the audio part of it as it's way more than only audio drums.

I find my Audya an extreme versatile arranger & I have never had a single regret for purchasing it, and yes, it cost me a lot of money, even though I bought it 2nd hand, but is was money well spent. I do not need any additional arranger to complement it, I have everything I need.

But yes, that's my personal take on it. We are all entitled to our opinions. I've motivated quite a few to buy Audyas and they all thanked me for doing so. I'm not aware of a single regret as yet...

Keep well all my friends,

Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#361323 - 02/14/13 03:54 AM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Dnj]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3243
Loc: Middletown, DE
Diki,
You've got a PM (not related to this though)...

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#361331 - 02/14/13 08:31 AM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Dnj]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
What a load of deliberate misinformation and total evasion of every point I've made.

No amount of bars length of a swing style will help me if I need a Cajun style, or a Reggae style, or a Zydeco style, or any style of music you don't currently do. And sorry, but if I want to do a few dozen swing songs, I don't want to use the same styles for them.

SSD streaming of ROM? That's what the Kronos does (as well as streaming user content too). In other words, if you want to use a 2GB drum kit with 20+ velocity layers, you don't have to load the sampler (glacially) and wait until ready to go. And there goes any advantage of audio drums. As you seem to want to point out, audio style producers can use VSTi drum libraries to make styles (but they are just as uneditable once made), but how about having enough RAM, or streaming ROM, to be able to simply use the KIT that these guys are going to use to make the audio? Then you have all the control that MIDI styles currently do.

Sorry, but saying something MIGHT outsell the market leaders is a tacit admission they DON'T. They 'might' outsell Roland at TOTL arranger sales! Because Roland don't make one! Should have stuck to that!

In case you missed the point (doh!), the Betamax reference was an illustration that the market decides what is and isn't successful. Even though Betamax had a few technical advantages over VHS, the wider availability and practical usefulness of VHS (it came in sizes long enough to fit a movie on) consigned Beta to the scrap heap of innovation. All that non-audio arrangers need to doom audio arrangers is larger ROM and streaming from SSD's, so that VSTi quality drums can be played by MIDI. The Kronos already has that, and it won't be too long before the concept trickles down. Then, we will have drum parts as good as any audio loop, but with all the control we currently enjoy.

I'm sorry, but you may have hit the perfect description of Ketron users (or sellers!).... smug. Despite all evidence, despite every disadvantage being pointed out, you prefer to dismiss any of our VERY legitimate needs as unnecessary. Far from it. Maybe if you stop making style tailored to EU bar musicians, they might get more popular over here. But when you make audio styles that don't reflect the US tastes and styles (trust me, stick an EU 'bar and restaurant' player in a bar over here, he's not going to last long!), when you barely support your product on our continent, where you may have to drive 1000 miles just to SEE one in a store, how you can be smug beats me.

Maybe you HAVE made the perfect product for a European bar musician..! Maybe if I was one, I'd be interested. But I'm not...

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#361341 - 02/14/13 11:02 AM Re: How AUDIO Drums Are Recorded? [Re: Dnj]
Tonewheeldude Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1529
As I said thats it for me. It is absolutely fine that you like midi styles so much - lets shake hands and wait and see where the manufacturers decide to go next eh?

But do some research on "ROM" streaming, you 'might' find it in the same section of your technical handbook as Trillium-carbonic alloy...it makes absolutely no sense at all :-/ The point of Hard disk streaming (either Solid State or Platter) is to do away with preloading into system ram...which is why Audya does not need vast ammounts of user ram, (it actually doesn't need any user ram unless you use sampled sounds). What you describe as "streaming" (not an acurate description) the kits from rom is the current method that everyone uses and has been doing so since the early 1980s.

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