I played my 3rd gig today with the S950. I decided to try out the two
Audio Styles in the Jazz section and during the gig if there was a song that
fit the styles I used the two of them.

I have not been impressed with the Audio Styles in my small studio but today in a larger room with the Bose going there was an entirely different feel and sound to them. But what really got my attention was how my audience reacted to them. Each time I used one of the two Audio Jazz styles I got nearly twice the applause and vocal approval from the audience. Now I wish there were more of them on the keyboard.

But, I still would not buy the S950 just for the Audio styles because there are just to few of them in the presets.

Deane

I agree - those 2 swing styles are SO very usable, and sound fantastic. They progress logically too, from one to the next. The Bossa is great too.

Uncle Dave,
One has to wonder what Yamaha is thinking in the way they implemented the Audio styles. If you have to use a thumb drive for storage and you wish to create playlists to store on the thumb drive you can't use the audio styles because they can't be copied to a device external to the keyboard. I have not messed with the songbook or registrations yet but I am not comfortable not being able to save setups of any kind on an external device if for no other reason but to have a reliable backup.

Deane

Deane, you can store registrations on USB drive. All they do is point to the style.
DonM

I guess, if you actually like the audio style concept, why are you wasting your time with Yamaha? Just go get an Audya... Or I think Fran and Nedim might have a spare MS lying around propping a door open!

Hi Don,
I'll give that a try today. I have never used registrations in the past but am certainly open to the idea. Have you tried backing up the keyboard yet? I wonder if the audio styles get backup up???

Deane

The audio styles go to a protected sort of FlashROM section (like where your OS is) so don't get backed up.

From what we have heard so far, each new Audio Style Pak will have to be loaded up similar to doing an OS update... loaded slowly into the FlashROM, and then the arranger needs a reboot. This seems to indicate that mixing and matching, or calling new ones up on the fly will be impossible.

Essentially, you will have a certain amount of the FlashROM available for the audio styles (it's currently full with the styles in it now) and you will have to erase some styles to make room for new ones. Let's just hope Yamaha haven't forgotten to let us decide which we keep and which we erase, but given how rushed out the door these features are, don't bet against it being an all or nothing approach!

Yes Diki,
A convoluted and messed up system in my opinion and I doubt I will be a buyer for
any future overpriced audio styles Yamaha tries to sell. A real shame because the S950 is actually a neat little keyboard.

Deane

There are about three audio styles I use. They sound good. They sound a little better than most of the midi styles, but not so much different that they sound out of place.
I'm pretty happy with the midi styles anyway, and they can be extensively edited. Many of them come to life if you change to the Real Drum kit.
Deane, if you set up a Registration Bank for each song, and name it accordingly, they automatically sort alphabetically and you can instantly call up the list, and have your song loaded in a second or so.
I put all the settings for the song I want on Memory 1. On the other memories, if not needed for the song, I put seven of my favorite sounds. I set the Registration Freeze to only allow the memories to change Sound when it's on. I load a Bank, press one, press Freeze and I'm ready to go with all the settings for the song I want to play, including text file, plus instant access to seven more sounds, plus the OTS settings.
In some ways, I even prefer this to Songbook on Korg. It's the first time I ever took the time to do it this way.
You can even use an external Registration Editor to make set up easier if you want.
DonM

It just seems a shame that Yamaha wasted all this time and money on a pitiful few new audio styles, when a few new drum KITS could have achieved exactly the same thing and so much more... at a fraction of the cost.

Don,
I think I'll play with that idea and see how it works for me I just have never operated with registrations so it will be something different for me.

Deane

Totally agree. It's like they are experimenting, or testing the waters.
DonM

Greetings everyone! It's been quite a while since I last posted. I heard the official demos and they do sound very good. The ac piano seems much improved and the guitars sound really good too. But I'm guessing the keys are still.. what's the word? Oh right, cheesy? But that's basically always been the case with Yamaha's PSR line of keyboards. I see they bumped up the speaker output to 15 watts which is a plus.

I've given up waiting for Yamaha to produce another 76 key high-end arranger. 50 percent of consumers actually prefer 76 keys over 61 keys (according to polls) and we've begged Yamaha for years but it has all fallen on deaf ears. I understand that Yamaha is in business to make money, and consequently, it does whatever is in its own best interest(s). But it just goes to show you that no matter what Yamaha customers (or potential customers) desire from them... Yamaha always ends up doing exactly what serves in their own best interest(s). While consumers are left waiting in the lurch desiring something from them that never seems to materialize. Which is very disheartening when you consider Yamaha's main priority seems to be only in looking out for themselves, as opposed to the actual people who buy their keyboards and other products, which keeps them in business. The data has shown that there is a viable market for quality 76/88 key arrangers, as evidenced by Korg, Roland and even Casio. And don't forget the Audya. But I digress. I'm just venting a little steam. Having been absent from the forums for so long I guess I need to get a lot of things off my chest. Critique should not be a lost art. If taken into consideration it can, in many instances, make a good company even better. If the company actually listens of course.

If the keys are better on the PSR-S950 than previous PSR models then I think fans of 61 key arrangers will be quite happy with the PSR-S950. If you don't mind the lack of audio style functionality that is.

There are some arranger keyboardists out there who actually prefer mushy keys. Just ask Gary. So maybe that's why Yamaha continues to produce them? But when you realize that most keyboardists actually prefer great key action, it would seem to make much better sense (to me anyway) for Yamaha to produce better action key-beds for their PSR line of keyboards. The same line of reasoning should apply to their Drum kits as well in my opinion. If the Drum kits and key action were vastly improved on Yamaha arrangers they would undoubtedly sell "more" of them right? Sounds logical to me. So that must mean Yamaha is being illogical?? Or maybe it's just that they don't care?? Or perhaps they sell enough arrangers as it is that selling a boat load 'more of them' doesn't really appeal to them?? I guess when you're "king of the hill" you can do whatever you please. Which is the rationale and course of action that Yamaha seems to be taking. At the 'chagrin' of many of their customers (and potential customers) unfortunately. Oh well. That's Yamaha. Like it or lump it.

I'm gonna check out the PSR-S950 hopefully soon. My local GC has them in stock. If the keys are actually decent... I know I know, don't hold your breath, right? I might spring for one and then run it through an 88 key controller when using it for piano parts.

It's been quite a while since I've owned an arranger and the PSR-S950 seems to be a great price vs. performance option when comparing it to the much higher priced Tyros4. Since an 76/88 key mid/high-end arranger from Yamaha is out of the question, running the PSR-S950 through a 76/88 key controller is the only other option. Yamaha could 'theoretically' add enhanced features to the PSR-S950 with an OS update too. Audio style looping would be nice. I also like the extra memory. But mushy keys will probably be a deal breaker for me. Playing strings, guitar, sax, or whatever, on mushy keys, is not only a drag, it's also potentially bad for your hands. Having a firm amount of resistance in the key action actually improves muscle strength and control in the hands. I could tolerate the less than stellar Drum kits I suppose. But cheesy keys? I don't think so. I noticed in the official videos when the player depressed the keys it looked as if the keys didn't provide sufficient action or resistance. Having played a PSR-910 I can attest to the fact that Yamaha has a tradition of producing "cheesy keys" on their arranges. I'm hoping it's improved on the PSR-S950. We'll see.

All the best, Mike

Hi Mike, good to see you back.
Different things bother different ones of us I suppose. I don't mind the keys. Faster action and easy on my aging fingers. If you didn't like the keys on earlier models, you won't like these either.
The drums are somewhat better, but still not as lively sounding as any of the other brands.
You know, there are other options. The Korg Pa line is excellent, and includes the 76-note version of the PA3X. You'll love the key action and the drums on it, plus the multitude of real-time controls, both fixed and fully programmable.
There are lot of folks waiting for the arrival of the PA600 as well.
Anyway, it's good to hear from you again!
DonM

Isn't the key-bed exactly the same on the new 950 that was on the S910? Thought I heard that somewhere? As Don said ....It didn't bother me either when I had the 900/9a0....but once you feel a Pa33x or Tyros4, Audya, SD1, Roland G70, etc,. you will realize the difference in key-feel for sure.

Mike, since the S950's keybed is the same as S910/S710/S900/S700, and you didn't like any of the latter, I'd suggest going with a Korg PA3XPro, which will give you a better feeling keybed than the cheaper PA-series, 76 notes, and Korg's very simple operating system, which is so intuitive, a child could handle it after only a few hours.

Lighter actions were never an issue with me, as I have come from a synthesizer/Hammond B-3 background as well as acoustic piano, and I had no problems going from one type to the other, but your mileage may vary.

As DonM has mentioned, the PA-600 by Korg is eagerly awaited (I suspect Donny will sell his PA3X and get a PA-600), and also there is talk of a PA-900 (to replace the aging PA-800).

If I want real 88-note "piano" weighted hammer action, which I only need occasionally, I use a Yamaha P-95 as a controller for my Tyros4...it's pretty inexpensive, very lightweight, and the action is graded hammer and very nice indeed.

Good to see you posting again.

Ian

Well it's been several hours and I was able to scurry on down to GC and play not only the PSR-S950 but also the S750 and believe it or not they also had a Tyros4 on hand in the professional keyboard section ready to demo.

By the way thanks for the greetings. It appears everyone is doing well and I see Diki hasn't been banned permanently from the forum yet. That in itself is reason to rejoice. He brings an added dimension to the forum that keeps everybody on their toes. Especially Nigel. lol

Back to the PSR-S950. You guys are right. The key action just doesn't cut the mustard for me but the keys are at least a little bit stiffer than the S750 keys are. Although one of the employees had just set up the S950 while I was there so it could be just a matter of it being brand new, whereas, the S750 could have been on the shelf quite a bit longer and played extensively by customers in the store. So perhaps that's why the keys felt a little mushier on the S750. They could have the same exact keybed in other words. Only the S950 keys hadn't been "broken in" yet. Although only Yamaha knows for certain I suppose.

Regarding the sounds. I thought the sounds on the S950 were very nice overall and I think some of them were even comparable in quality to the Tyros4. I tried the audio styles and if you ask me there's not much of a difference between them and the regular midi styles in my opinion. The styles themselves were excellent in many cases and I think the PSR-S750 or S950 would make a good choice for beginners or even more advanced players who want a lighter package with relatively good sounds. As in Don's case. The S950 is half the price of a Tyros4 and it has a few additional features that the Tyros4 doesn't have. So if you don't mind the slightly cheesy keys the S950 and S750 could make a valuable addition to someone who doesn't already have an arranger keyboard or to someone who may just want a back-up.

I think the best path forward for me is to probably wait until one of the Big Three releases a 256 note polyphony arranger that won't break the bank. I noticed the Tyros4 was on sale at GC for $3,749 and with my superb bartering skills I'm sure I could haggle them down even further. But I really want something in 76 keys or even 88 keys if the weight isn't an issue. I really like the PAX3PRO but I just can't get over the realization it only has 120 note polyphony. Some of Casio's Privia line (although not arrangers) have 128 note polyphony and the prices are around $500 bucks or thereabouts. I'm really hoping Korg puts it in gear and will release a next generation arranger with 256 note polyphony. Arrangers today are so complex with so many advanced features that 128 note polyphony really isn't sufficient any longer in my humble opinion. I realize the Big Three are milking 128 note polyphony for all it's worth. But eventually they need to smell the coffee and wake up to reality that 128 note polyphony just doesn't cut it any longer. Although if something came along that was the bee's knees yet only had 128 note polyphony, I would seriously consider getting it. If I had my druthers though I would much prefer a 256 note, 76 key model, that won't break the bank. I know I know. I realize that may be next to impossible. At least in the near term. Once 256 note polyphony arrangers have been around for a while the prices should drop accordingly.

All the best, Mike

PS: Happy holidays everyone! I'll try to check in more often. I may have to buy a cheap Casio WK-7500 just so I can say I have an arranger and be able to feel more at home on this forum. I feel a little out of place not having an arranger and posting on an arranger forum. By the way, my Roland Fantom G7 is still plugging away. I really miss arrangers though. There's a lot you can do with an arranger that you obviously can't do with a traditional workstation. Hello! Auto-accompaniment for one. Easier on the back in most cases too. I'll keep my fingers crossed that something will come along in the near future. These are exciting times and the technology keeps getting better and better. Now if the prices would just go down a little.

Too high for the Tyros 4. Talk to Frank at audioworksct.com, especially if you are on his side of the continent.
DonM

Mike .... good to have you back ... best of luck in your search for an arranger kb ...

Don ... looks like Mike is in CA and Frank it in CT ... only one letter difference, but about as far as you can get from each other on the same continent ...

Better check with George Kaye!
DonM

Welcome back, Mike...

I agree with a lot of what you say (trying to keep Nigel happy, these days!) but one thing I'm not convinced about - I've been using a 128 note arranger for years now. I can't honestly say I have EVER heard notes dropping out. Not in the busiest passages of SMF's, not in the densest of styles, not with quite big layers being played as well.

Now, that's not to say that MAYBE it hasn't happened. But I've got a pretty picky ear (as most here know!) and if I can't ever recall hearing it, well, that's good enough for me!

Personally, I think there are so many, many much more important things to worry about and wait anxiously for them to be improved than polyphony... speed of response, for one. I can layer up all 5 polyphonic Keyboard Parts on my G70, put stereo sounds on to all of them, and play fast repeated chords, and not hear the slightest of flams..! Pretty damn good, IMO. My Kurzweil can't do that, my Triton can't do that, my old G1000 certainly couldn't do that! I'd rather have 128 voices of instant response that 256 that you can't use all of them without it bogging down...

And you are doing such a good job of it

I hear you Diki. The big three are milking 128 for all it's worth and if they see no pressing need to bump it up they most likely won't. I beg to differ though regarding note drop off. You may not be able to distinguish when note(s) drop off in many instances but when it does occur it can diminish a performance. For instance, Jordan Rudess was playing a Kronos a while back and he pushed the polyphony envelope to just below 256 notes. I reckon there must be a polyphony counter on the Kronos. Anyway, I read the article with my own two eyes so I'm assuming it was correct information. If a workstation can push the polyphony envelope that far, just imagine an arranger with all its complex accompaniment functionality and other polyphony consuming features, such as Multipads, voice layerings, and of course the potentially ominous sustain pedal, etc.

Having said all that I just heard a bunch of Korg PA-600 demos and noticed it has 128 polyphony as opposed to Korg's normal 120 spec on most of their other arrangers. The PA-600 sounds amazing and the price is roughly $800 less than Yamaha's PSR-S950. It may be too good to pass up even though it only has 61 keys. If worse comes to worse I can run it through my Fantom G7 or an 88 key controller for piano parts. Hopefully the keybed on the PA-600 will have better action than the Yamaha PSR-S950 has. After playing a few years on a decent action keyboard I don't want to settle for "cheesy" if I can help it. It's like after getting a taste of high-speed internet. You don't want to ever go back to dial-up.

PS: Good to see Diki is behaving himself Nigel. Knock on wood. Just kidding. lol

Another point of view

With hardware boards the more polyphony you have the more the price jumps up, as you need more processing power and memory to accommodate it, therefore manufactures set the polyphony to suit the instrument and market, which with arrangers appears to be 128, workstations on the other hand have to have more due to more advanced layering being available compared to arrangers.

Roland tend to stick to this formula the same as the rest, which why most of their arrangers have 128 however the Ateliers (Organs) have 384 due to the advanced combinations they can have.

The question is?

Would you be prepared to pay a lot extra for your keyboard for something that would not be noticeable to most users? The answer from most players would probably be No, so there is no incentive for manufactures to change the formula.

Bill

Jordan Rudess definitely tries pretty hard to push the envelope in many ways! If you can play as well as Jordan, and the type of synth heavy stuff he does, then PERHAPS you might bump the ceiling. But let's be real... who is doing stuff like his on an arranger?!

As to hitting the ceiling, this problem's audibility varies dramatically with different keyboards. Note stealing algorithms vary from product to product, and can have a big impact. My K2500 only has 48 voices (how things have changed!) but it has incredibly intelligent voice stealing algorithms (and a page where you can SEE the voices being used up) and can often be pushed to the max without actually hearing anything. Short transient samples get reassigned as soon as the sample end is reached, sustaining voices get reassigned in order of level (low level samples layered up can often be dropped in a dense mix with no audibility at all).

But bottom line is, until YOU hear it happening to YOU, not to Jordan Rudess, that's the time to start worrying!

keybplayer

The Ketron AUDYA Keyboard has ...
* 76 Keys (semi weighted)
* 196 Note polyphony

2 great/needed features you seem to be interested in. It might be worth checking out.

Thanks,

Diki: "But bottom line is, until YOU hear it happening to YOU, not to Jordan Rudess, that's the time to start worrying!"

That's my point. It has happened to me and I'm sure to others as well if the truth be known. Roland pushed the envelope with the JP-80 which has 256 note polyphony. Although from my understanding it divides the polyphony in categories so apparently it's not 256 across the entire range of the keyboard. Which actually defeats the purpose of doubling the polyphony from 128 to 256. And of course the JP-80 isn't an arranger.

Regarding arrangers from the Big Three. I honestly don't see it happening any time soon because Japan's economy is basically in a nosedive, and therefore, they'll likely keep milking 128 for a few more years. Ketron, on the other hand, has pushed the envelope but I'm waiting for the next version of the Audya (or whatever it's called) since the current version lacks some features found on lower cost arrangers from the Big Three. Like USB 2.0 for one. Like paltry user memory for another. By the way thanks for your suggestion AJ. Like I said though I'll wait until the next version of the Audya. Hopefully we'll see something soon from Ketron.

All the best, Mike

I seem to remember Kurzweil pulling a neat polyphomy trick by assigning alternate keys to seperate sound engines to double the polyphony, is that right?



The thread seems well and truly hijacked anyway so; The user memeory on the Audya is only for INS/MSP voices and the Audya uses streaming technology. Unlike the other manufacturers it doesn't require user ram to play MP3/Wav files or to store stuff. The reserved factory ram does not require expansion, so there is no option to do so.

Why do you need USB 2.0? (maybe another thread would be good for this one)

Well, some of the issues with voice stealing come down to the player... Sometimes, in a dense mix, do you REALLY need to layer piano, strings, horns, a pad, and an organ?

Or is there a voice already programmed with fewer voices that will serve as well? Part of the art of arranging is NOT stacking everything on top of itself all the time. Remember, even a symphony orchestra only has about 80 players playing, nearly all of whom can only play one note at a time. Now understand that the strings are really only playing a maximum of 10 notes at a time (divisi on 1st & 2nd Violins, Violas, Celli and Dbl Basses) and you actually reduce the notes played drastically under that 80 players.

So yes... you can push the polyphony limits of ANYTHING by doing ridiculous things. But back in the real world, with care and forethought, you can avoid it quite easily, and quite musically.

HI Mike

You seem to have mentioned workstations and synthesizers a number of times, therefore I suspect this is the type of sounds you use on your arranger, and why you are getting the problem, as arrangers are not designed for that intense continuous sound, (The normal note stealing algorithms just don’t work) which is another reason why arrangers are not used in full professional production of music and film. (There only suitable for the first scratchpad)

The only arranger keyboard that has theoretically unlimited polyphony is the Wersi Pegasus Wing where the polyphony is linked to the on-board CPU & Ram, (Which can be upgraded) and which in its current format even if you had everything going (Including the on-board VST) you would still not be anywhere near its polyphony limit.

Bill

If you start doing synth modeling (which I think is one of the reasons Rudess has problems with the Kronos, which models some of its sounds) on any CPU, you can drag polyphony down quite quickly. It really doesn't matter what CPU you have in there, a few stacked, modeled synth sounds, and you are going to reach your limit.

TBH, there are still considerable drawbacks to CPU generation of sounds, especially live, as voice count is dynamic depending on what VSTi's you use, and when the ceiling is approached, FAR more nasty things happen than mere note (or voice within a note) dropout. Your entire CPU can drop out..!

At least arrangers haven't generally gone this route so far. I KNOW that, no matter what sound I am using, I get that full 128. You can't say that with certainty on a CPU generated instrument.

Hi Diki

Most VST manufactures realised what you mentioned a number of years ago, which is why most these days have been optimised to do more with less power and have a setting which activates the algorithm to prevent overloads from happening. (As most VST are designed to be used live these days, it gave them the incentive to solve the problem)

NOTE: It is not normally activated by default, as most players’ test everything out before playing with it live, but it does help the less experienced.

BTW: I can guarantee that no matter how or what you played on the Wersi Pegasus Wing you would never reach its polyphony limit, and that is a CPU based instrument.

Technology and software has come a long way since those early days when the problems you mentioned were rampant.

Bill

You should try some of the Arturia stuff, Bill. Absolutely spot on emulations of most of the great synth classics (Prophet 5, CS-80, Minimoog, Moog Modular, ARP 2600, Jupiter-8 etc.) all done in modeling. These will pretty much bring anything to its knees, especially if you do the same insane layering and stacking that can choke a hardware synth, too.

Bottom line is, it is down to the player.

But unless you install these sorts of things, generally, most arrangers rely on simple sample playback, which taxes a CPU hardly at all. Things like Gigasampler can give you incredibly high voice counts, which might make you think you are invincible! But trust me, start running a bunch of modeled synth stuff. Then start stacking.

Somebody somewhere will ALWAYS find a way to stack too much for any system, then complain that polyphony isn't sufficient. Until there are unlimited resources, this will always be the case..!

If you are a great player a monophonic synth will sound awesome in your hands .... if you aren't a 128 voice polyphonic synth will sound like a mess. Stacking sounds to the ceiling aint gonna help but will probably make things just sound even messier.

Just learn to play and don't get so hung up on polyphony. Musicality beats technicality hands down every time. Personally I prefer simpler pure sounding voices. Sounds that are over stacked just sound fake and don't blend as well.

Yep, could not agree more.

Dennis

The thing that makes modern arrangers sound so great isn't really a stacking thing. SA/DNC sounds are so good because of sample switching, not stacking and layering, generally. In other words, you get different voices (or oscillators, or samples, whatever you want to call them) sounding depending on how you play. Play staccato, get one sound. Play legato INSTEAD of the staccato, you get the legato sample. But only ONE voice is being used...

Drum sounds, same thing. Many modern arranger's drum sounds have four or so different samples, for gradually increasing velocities. But only one plays at a time. Some of the big drum VSTi's have as many as 64 samples per drum (or more), but you are only hearing the one per note.

I agree with Dennis and Nigel... there are FAR more important things to worry about than maxing out a 128 voice arranger!