Compared to an Arranger..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMecmv863...mp;feature=plcp

Just so impressive....you really need to hear it live to appreciate the sonic fidelity. The recording doesn't do it justice.

Always knew it was one of the best, thanks Al

Tony

If you have an hour and a half to kill... watch this Kronos Demo with Jordan Rudess. WOW!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=n88ABqccErI

Wow! Thanks Al...that is awesome. The Kronos is one terrific keyboard.

I'm tickled that Yamaha has embraced that very same technology for their Motif series, and, I hope someday it ends up on an arranger.

Ian

Ian, Yamaha actually did one better than Korg in this regard, they adopted Karma version 3.0 which from what I hear is more feature rich than the current Korg version 2. The only downside is you need to run Yamaha Karma on a computer midi'ed/tethered to a keyboard.

I wish both Yamaha and Korg would incorporate Karma into an arranger keyboard in ADDITION to using regular styles. That would be Killer and a true composing dream machine. Imagine coming up with a nice Karma scene and then saving it as a standard style and then using that style with embellished Karma effects and then saving that???? WOW!

Great board but not for the technically challenged (which defines most people over 60). Unless you're the guy that taught Bo Tomlyn how to program the DX7, you may have quite a learning experience ahead of you before you are able to realize the full potential of this board. But (IMO) you also need to be into synth sounds and modern (as in big-city club scene) music in order to justify buying this type of board. With all due respect, judging from the technical questions I've seen asked on this board, I'd say that this is, at best, a studio only board for most of us (yes, definately me too). AND, only with great difficulty would it produce the kind of results desired by most 'arranger' players. I knew what my own experience was likely to be, based on my experience with my Fantom G7, but the purity and beauty of the tones out of this board are highly seductive. Besides, as they say, "a fool and his money are soon parted". However, I make all my decisions based on whether I should spend my money on something I really want OR leave it to the kids. So far, the kids are batting zero .

chas

Chas, I understand about the kids thing. Every time I look at buying a piece of equipment, my son gets a concerned look on his face and says, "wouldn't you rather have (whatever)"?

He knows he's getting whatever it is...eventually.


R.

Al, as Chas has stated above, it is a complex system, and, in my opinion, it needs to be streamlined considerably for use in an arranger keyboard...that is, without losing too much of it's terrific sonic power.

Most arranger users want features that aren't overly complex, and perhaps, by the time the next Tyros or PA-series arrangers are released, Karma can be made a bit less daunting for the average player.

Combining Karma with styles would certainly make the latter far more "interesting" and less predictable and/or repetitive.

Let's hope that Yamaha's/Korg's R&D departments pursue it's utilization in arrangers, and manage to make it more user friendly.

Ian

It'll be interesting to see what Korg's OS update for the Pa3X will bring in September(?). That said, reading the stuff on Korg Forums, there are other issues that still need to be addressed. I'm still very much wait-and-see on this.

A pinball machine comes to mind....talk about repetition.....all I want to hear is a normal song on one of these kbs. Every demand I've heard is Yanniesqe?

It is interesting to note that Stephen (Kay) has approached Korg Italy on several occasions in the past to port Karma to the PA series.
He personally thinks it would be a brilliant combination given the control surface he could work with, and the excellent sound engine available.

Apart from "lip-service" they (Korg Italy - not to be confused with Korg USA, they are two different entities) have given it no serious consideration at all.

Further, apparently Yamaha have NO intention of taking it away from the Motif line. It is to be an exclusive add-on for that series only. In other words they are not releasing any of the coding data required to port to the arranger lines

Be aware that Yamaha do NOT own Karma 3, this is still totally owned, operated and controlled by Karma Labs.

Synths and Arranger KB's are separated on purpose for a reason..it just makes good business sense for the manufacturers...and much more money in sales.

Well Al, it appears, according to recent posts, that Karma isn't headed for use in arranger keyboards anytime soon, if at all.

At least you already own the Kronos, which you can midi to your Tyros4, and add Karma to the styles in that manner...have you tried it?

I do hope that both Yamaha and Korg take a serious look at adding Karma to their arranger line...I think it's slicker than frog hair!

Ian

I played a Kronos today for the first time. Spent about an hour or so on it, running through patches and combis.

Sweet!

But as different from an arranger as chalk from cheese. An utterly different performance paradigm, and in all honesty, an utterly unfriendly live layout.

Stop Start buttons (there are 3 separate ones) are tiny, and nestled in with other tiny buttons, the main Karma Start/Stop is WAY away from the keyboard, hidden in with some other Karma controls. The Scene Change buttons (about the closest thing to what we might call Variations) are again, well away from your hands, over the top of the sliders and mute buttons. All in all, a potential minefield of musical mishap!

Now I know, you can put much of these onto footpedals, but there is no multi-pedal input, so to do much with your feet, you probably need to buy a dedicated MIDI multi-pedal, and spend a lot of time head-scratching. So, for me, a 5/10 for live ease of use.

The touchscreen is big, but densely packed with information, making hitting things with your fingers in the heat of performance quite tricky. There IS a nice 'Set List' feature, which puts 16 Combis or Sounds on the screen at one time, MUCH easier to hit correctly, but past this, you have your work cut out. It's a bigger screen than my G70, but info is packed MUCH tighter (the main font is hard for me to read even with my reading glasses on!).

Sonically, outstanding, and the factory Combis are inspiring and quite fresh, organ, piano and rhodes/wurli are as good as I have heard them (although I'll still put my G70's main piano up against it any day!), in the limited time I've had with it so far, no real dogs stand out.

All in all, something well worth a trip to your nearest Korg store (I'm in a very small market, so most of you shouldn't have trouble finding one nearby).

BUT... an arranger it is NOT!

Diki, for all those reasons and a couple more, I dissed mine not long after getting it...had it for about 4 weeks.

Thanks for this report Diki. I have been thinking hard about a Kronos. But now hearing your opinion (which I value highly) it may not be the keyboard for me. I don't care about its ability as an arranger but I really do care about it as a keyboard in a live stage situation. I am currently using a Motif which gives me 16 physical buttons per bank making switching patches on stage very easy. I do not want to have to wear my reading glasses on stage. That is an absolute show stopper for me.

Actually Nigel as a live keyboard and NOT for arranger play it is quite good...The performance memories (of which you can have several hundred) store every aspect of a setup (including all resources - be it an mp3, Karma setup, midi file, sample sounds, effects routing etc etc) to a one touch panel....and these can be named anything you want...and recalled in an instant...

Plus it has no sound cutoff when you jump from one sound to another, a BIG bugbear on the Motif line

I think you may be selling yourself short in not checking it out for yourself.

I only dissed mine when I found out that Karma 3 was NOT going to be ported to Kronos, and the way the Karma operating controls were setup made it rather awkward for trying to play it like an arranger..

I would strongly suggest you get your hands on one to see...

Thanks Dennis, but is selecting patches on the fly in a live situation easy? I would prefer not to have to acurately touch the right selection on a touch screen mid song without reading glasses. With my Motif hitting the right physical button is easy even in poorly lit environments.

But the sound options on the Kronos do have me interested.

Yeah, I think so Nigel..once you get used to the hierarchy...They can be tricky to select via the touch screen using the actual patch lists though as they are in a sort of "details list" type view, but there are so MANY performance slots available you could almost simply save all your favourite patches to perf slots which are instantly loaded. 128 at a time. Comes in handy if you have a complex effects chain in action.

Patches can be selected using the hardware buttons on the right, but I found using the touch screen with my edits of the factory sounds far easier. And live it is a doddle really, using the screen.

They are pretty big touch pads on the screen..I think I am like you in that I have "old age readers eyes" LOL!!!And I had no trouble using them without glasses tbh.

I need glasses to read up close...I could see the touch pads easily and as it is a backlit screen...very easy to see on a dark stage..and it is simply a matter of pushing the arrow button at the bottom to jump pages...I think it had 16 slots per page from memory but it may have been 24...

Here is an interesting clip of the setlist (a VERY powerful tool) operating...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thK0jOOSfeo&feature=youtu.be

Dennis

Thanks very much Dennis for that youtube clip. I think I could work with that setup live on stage. I don't actually have to read each of the 16 presets as I already remember them by position as I already have to do on the Motif.

Johnathan,

Rudess is such a master...the Kronos continues to impress...he obviously has great command of the Karma engine, as well as mastery of the instrument itself.


I've always enjoyed his work in Dream Theater.

Kudos to Korg for producing such an incredibly versatile and powerful instrument, and after seeing/hearing such a brilliant demo, it is easy to visualize this instrument's strengths lie in both studio and live production.

Thanks for the link.

Ian

Nigel.... don't dismiss this thing. Sonically, it is quite amazing!

As with most WS's, if you are willing to set up Performances in advance, and use the Set List feature, I see no reason why it is any worse than any other WS out there in a live situation.

The thing is, the reason why I still prefer to use my G70 in a normal WS role is, when you DON'T have time to preset spits and layers, effects routing, touch responses and all that, virtually no WS made can beat the speed and ease of my G70 for calling these up on the fly. Much of my work is with different people, so I often never know what I'm going to be playing, or with who, until I get there. My Triton and K2500 would be quite impossible to program on the gig all the splits and layers I might need, but it is a snap with the G70 (and I can save each new Performance on the fly, for future use).

But if your needs for a keyboard for live are currently filled by a Motif, the Korg is no harder to run live, and offers considerably more power and sonic realism and a feature set well past the Motif's capabilities.

I found it quite inspiring, and look forward to getting back to the store and spending a good day or two with it. And if I was doing a gig with a Motif or Fantom, etc., I would be VERY tempted if I had the cash to splash...

I've had my Kronos for about 6-8 months. At first I was pretty intimidated by it, but after spoon feeding myself daily with it's internals, I'm getting VERY comfortable with it. I am now sound programming, programming Karma, and creating sample libraries. I don't use the Kronos as an arranger. However, there have been occasions on stage that I will use Karma. Classic example is I programmed the two signature LMFAO dance songs; Party Anthem and I'm sexy and I know it. We play these at Wedding Receptions. I programmed the sounds and then Karma-fied the arrangement. I also use Karma for comping and soloing practice. There are some great COMBI splits with either bass, rhodes in the left hand and some other lead instrument in the right hand. For inspiration and song ideas, I have a set of Favorite patches that I use to practice and inspire. I got a kick out of Donny's assertion that Karma is too repetitive....that's so funny because that's exactly what Karma is designed NOT to be. Even if you don't take any action on the control surface to change the swing, accents, sound, etc., Karma will randomize your patterns automatically. The video I posted was instructional, not a performance video. Live on stage, I'm sure it would be much more dynamic.

The keyboard is Deep; very deep. Anyone who grew up through the 70's, 80's, etc who knows what ADSR and OSC and LFO is, can program the Kronos. After a while it become very intuitive. It's interesting that owning this keyboard actually get's me more work with other bands because of the true to the song sound reproduction and just the sonic fidelity it produces. Other musicians/bands approach me on stage and ask me if I'd consider working with them to replace their current keyboard player who is using with a Kurzweil PC88 for all their songs.

One new exciting Kronos development just occurred yesterday when Korg released the Version 2.0.2 of their Operating System. We can now create custom Streaming samples/libraries from the Solid State Disk. The impact of this is, you now can reduce the size and load times by an order of magnitude. It's ridiculous just how little memory is now consumed by some very large samples. So not only does Kronos have all those sweet analog synths, you can also have the very best in Samples on the market and then further process them with the onboard sound modifications and effects. Yikes!!!

I did want to address Diki's assessment of the control surfaces of the Kronos. Like any keyboard, you really optimize your sounds and setups in the studio and very rarely do this on stage. I only use a very few buttons and knobs on stage. I primarily use the Setlist function, which, by the way, has an EQ function so you can change acoustics of your entire set on the fly tailored to the venue sound characteristics. I find the buttons and knobs no less limiting on the K than on other keyboards; Once you gain comfort with the instrument. Training yourself for an hour at the music store is not going to give you a comfort level.

The other point folks brought up is how complicated this board is and how difficult it is to master. Again, it's a matter of familiarity. I will say most folks on this board have grown up with synths in all shapes and sizes and the principles are all there, just implemented differently. This is probably the last and final workstation/synth I'll ever purchase and one that I will probably NEVER sell; that is until they come out with Karma 3 and 9 more Synth engines! haha

Good post, Al...

Most here contemplating getting a new Kronos ought to be aware that Korg have just started shipping the KronosX. While much of the KronosX's OS has been ported to the old Kronos, the new one comes with double the RAM and an SSHD twice the size.

It will be a tiny bit more, but Korg have announced a price drop on the original Kronos, so make sure your dealer isn't ripping you off for the old price. Me, I'd wait for that KronosX... with User Custom sample banks, you are going to want as much RAM and as big an SSHD as you can lay your hands on!



I think I pointed out the occasions where you CAN'T do this. I simply wish that WS manufacturers would pay more attention to ease of live use. Heck, most of their arranger divisions have already figured out how to do this, and what buttons and controllers need to be close to the performer's hands and which need to be well away (!), and if it doesn't change WHAT controls are available, just where they are and how ergonomically they are laid out, wouldn't we ALL benefit form this?

Forcing you to go OVER the top of the Karma sliders, to get to the scene change and Part Mute buttons introduces the risk of accidentally hitting something that could potentially introduce a trainwreck. Most of these kinds of issues have long been sorted out in arrangers. Sure, you CAN train yourself to be ultra-cautious going for anything live, but why, with a redesign, should you HAVE to?

Exactly Al there are Arranger KB players and then there are Synth players....two different things in many ways...KRONOS is a Monster on stage many of my band player friends who tour in big acts use it and just love the heck out of it.

Actually m8...ANY of those upgrades can be applied to the original Kronos! They are bog standard industry HDD/SSD's In fact the hardware cradle for a second hardrive was already in existence on the original Kronos...On the chassis just under the existing harddrive...Ram is easy to buy and upgrade as the MOBO on the K has not changed, and ALL the rest is a software upgrade to OS 2.2!!

So the X is more marketing and spin and far less substance - you know, the Yamaha model

Oh.... well, thanks, Dennis. Didn't realize Korg were stealing from the Yamaha playbook!

Just out of curiosity, is the price difference between the old Kronos and the KronosX more or less than the price of going out and upgrading it yourself?

I still have one peeve with the Kronos they aren't likely to address though... Why have they dropped the plastic 76 as an option? 88 and 73 wood and only a 61 plastic? For those of us that do LH bass, the 76's low E was perfect, and 76 piano notes rather than 73 allows a bit more pianism. I am afraid I simplay am not a big fan of the Rhodes-like 73. If you are going wooden, you need 88. If not, you need a low E. I tend to think the 73 wood is simply some kind of retro fetish, rather than an actual musical NEED...

As much of the Kronos's users are going to be synth-heads, why restricting the plastic action to just 61 notes, with all the Kronos can do across the keyboard just seems silly.

Yeah gotta agree...I find having the low E really useful for bass parts...(although not so much a problem these days now that there are 5 and six strings basses and drop tuning seems to be really "de rigeur") so it we can get away with playing a D below the E

I didn't like the C-C on the M3 and I didn't like the C-C on the Kronos either..Pity the keybed from the PA (Fatar) was not available for the Kronos - it certainly needs that option I agree.

I think it MAY have been a case of left over beds from the distinctly unpopular SV1 that they decided to stick with...I wouldn't be surprised to actually see a semi-weighted 76 option later on...

By the way, the action on the weighted K's is average to fair...somewhere between the M-Audio and Yamaha Motif weighted beds...I didn't find it all that convincing for piano, which is really the ONLY reason one buys a weighted bed imho....

Cost of upgrading is small depending on what SSD (if any) you want to use (hdd's - even the 7200RPMs needed for streaming are cheap and so is ram)

I think most existing owners will simply do this...New buyers I think could be better just buying the X, BUT...there are starting to be some really good deals on Kronos 1...so it is something to be checked by prospective buyers I guess.

I would still be VERY leery of anything that has to STREAM data enclosed in something that is being pounded on!

I think anyone that wants a secondary or bigger primary HD in a Kronos had better get a SSHD or have a REALLY good backup plan!

I agree that drop tunings have made the E a tad high, but what you lose at the top end to gain a seldom used C doesn't make it a great deal, IMO. I just don't get why everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel. 88, 76 and 61 have been tried and tested, player approved sizes for 30 years or more. This plethora of new sizes and ranges just feels like faddish fashion.

+1 m8

You have to be careful here about the meanings of the letters.

HDD = Hard Disk Drive

SSD = Solid State Drive

SSHD = Solid State Hard Drive (Combines both SSD & HDD in one unit to increase speed and keep costs down)

I think in actual fact the Kronos is an SSD rather than a SSHD

Wersi have been using HDD for 12 years now, and there has never been a failure due to players pounding on the keyboards. (If you look at the shock resistance of HDD while running, the player’s fingers would need to be powered by TNT to get anywhere close)

Bill

Yeah I agree with Bill re hdd's...been in laptops for years! and unless someone does something REALLY stupid the drives are pretty much rock solid...

as far as SSHD's go it is really only a standard HDD with a solid state cache..Kronos has the SSD, afaik

I am sorry, but the slight tapping that laptops get is a tiny fraction of what a keyboard goes through. Just look at how a 60 lb. WS can bounce around on a keyboard stand if not on something with four solid legs (which is why I use a QuikLok WS550 for my K2500 with its internal HD), and most keyboards with HD's are inoperative while they load. Unlikely to be hit at all.

Not to mention that the shock of even a slight drop WHILE THE HARD DRIVE IS READING OR WRITING can toast a laptop's HD quite easily.

I don't honestly compare laptop usage to streaming samples and getting pounded on by an energetic, two fisted, hard hitting pianist! Sure, it MIGHT survive for a while. But who wants to go through the agony of replacement on the gig if it doesn't? There's a REASON the Kronos has a SSD and not a 10,000rpm SATA HD.

ROTFLMAO..... so you have never seen a hard-core gamer going hammer and tong on a laptop??? I swear that sometimes I see the laptops jump off the desk!!!!

Seriously though...it is not as big an issue as you think..look at the Korg PA series..had a hard drive since the PA1- and there are STILL PA1's running on the original hdd - and I have got to say (and truly NO offence to anyone) but I have personally seen some of the players out here from middle eastern countries absolutely flog the [potty mouth] out of PA keyboard - please excuse the language, but it is the best way to describe it..And the hdd keeps chugging along!!!

And now nearly ten years later, 1000's of PA later (most with hard drives) are still chugging away, no dramas...

I do hear what you are saying but in the real works, HDD's are not as sensitive as you might think. I have been installing them for near 25 years now

Dennis

OK... I'll take your word on it..!

But I still think I'm going to shoot for an SSD if I get one of these. Just for the transfer speed if nothing else.

It kind of makes you wonder tho... why the push to this technology if HD's are so reliable? I've had 3 large drives die on me in the last ten years, only attached to my computer and utterly unmoved. But that little 50MB SSD in my G70 is bombproof after 8 years or so of hard labor. And, as I pointed out, the head is parked safely away from the platters in a PA3 or almost any HD equipped keyboard. The keyboard goes utterly dead while the head is reading the platters (when the HD is most vulnerable to damage), so it is not getting pounded during its most delicate time.

Oh absolutely m8, I would be doing the same thing..the throughput of SSD's plus access and read times makes them perfect for streaming....

That you had three die, is just bad luck sorry to say...I rarely see any dead hard drives, unless, as I aid elsewhere, someone does something really stupid!

I would even consider swapping out my hdd on the PA for a ssd if the PA had more than the ridiculous limit of 256mb ram for samples..

SSD's are certainly much quicker, generate no noise or heat and the technology is maturing very quickly..I can see in about two to three years time an ssd of 500+MB selling nearly as cheaply as current HDDs

The move to ssd's is only a natural progression really, same as the default monitors shifting to IPS output as standard, and OLED tech is nearly there as well, from a markting p.o.v. for sales numbers..

It's all in flux....

Well, those drives were involved in heavy DAW use, for one thing. And honestly, I think if it hasn't happened to you over a ten year span or more, you must be the only person I know that hasn't EVER had a HD crash on them at some point or another...

Nice!

Just lucky I suppose...plus I daresay I did not do anywhere near the amount of work on a hdd that you would have done in the studio...I am basing it more on real world computing...businesses, private systems et al...And Diki, some of the conditions I find these hard drives sitting in would make you shake you head in wonder..

Dust, dirt, had a mouse nest once, old sticky coke (drink) residue...man I have seen some stuff...and the drives were still working..beats me sometimes how the system was still even turning on with some of them

And here you are someone who obviously looks after gear, had three die on you!!! Go figure

Well, three in over 15 years isn't that bad, if you think about it! MTBF for heavy use HD's is definitely up there to the point that, without a solid backup regimen, EVERYONE is one crash away from losing everything.

Streaming 48+ tracks of audio to and from disk definitely puts the pressure on, but, as I said, I can't honestly think of anyone I know using a computer for anything other than the lightest use that hasn't got ONE horror story to tell.

Well I am not talking about the lightest use Diki..a lot more than that..but as I wrote somewhere else you have your opinion, you are entitled I disagree, so we will leave it there...no offence..

What brand of HD have you been using, Dennis..? If you have found something that is that reliable, I need to try it ASAP!

And as I said, this isn't my OPINION... Most everyone I know that has a computer has, at one time or another, crashed a HD. That's a fact, not opinion. Are you telling me you have never met anyone who had crashed a drive? I'm unique? Wow!

You seem to be the exception Dennis, not me. No offense. I am just unsure where any reference to 'opinion' comes into this... Hard drives crash. Fact. That you haven't yet does not change this. Opinion has nothing to do with it!

SSD & HDD have a limited lifespan (You will find its life expectancy buried in its specifications) however as HDD are mechanical, wear and tear are more pronounced, thus as a rule of thumb, look at the warrantee period given for a HDD by the manufacture, and change it before this time is up. (Even if you’re using a RAID Array this still has to be followed, particularly if all the disks were bought at the same time)

I suspect Diki’s crashes have been because he hasn’t changed them before the expected life span has expired.

Due to programs and files getting bigger, (Particularly Video) most never reach the life span of the disk as users have to upgrade to a larger one to fit all the files on.

Bill

I think Bill might be nearer the mark, disk don't pack in, like he says they get changed before they do, I have been building business use pcs since msdos 1.25 and frankly I have had fewer than 3 HDD failures in fact the last 4 HDDs I have off old PCs I built are in caddies and still going strong, it's time to start thinking of buying some new gear Diki then you can leave it to someone when you pop your cloggs (old english for die), there is nothing worse than young people clearing a house out after someone has passed on only to find it full of crap they can't use, I have never cleared one out and found a near new Wersi Wing in a cupbaord. If only...

Bill, I have a pretty decent backup regimen, so I rarely LOSE anything, but you may be right. I don't tend to get rid of a drive until it DOES conk out on me!

And Tony... unless those businesses are using their HD's as heavy use servers, the amount of work a business HD goes through is a tiny fraction of running big multi-track projects every day. I worked in modern ProTools equipped studios quite a lot before the slowdown, and backing up every day was an essential procedure. Try streaming a 48 track project while you record another 24, at 24/96, and compare that to accessing a few spreadsheets! Nothing other than video puts a greater demand and wear on an HD.

My current external HD's are only one and two years old... but I have backups!

Hi Diki

I wish more people had solid back regimes, I have been working with computers for over 30 years and users still cannot understand why they need to back up until one day the system crashes.

Depending on the size of the company will determine how the server is used, but even small business can easily stretch HDD to way beyond anything they would get in a music production studio. (HDD usage in a studio is in actual fact pretty basic)

Bill