Hi Guys:

After being burned by jumping into new technological devices too many times, I'm considering acquiring a tablet... maybe even an iPad but I need to know more about apps. I've always assumed they are just programs but are they? How do they work differently from PC programs? What do they cost or how are they acquired if not already installed on the device when purchased. Do some of them have monthly charges or does one have to subscribe to a service and at what cost?

In essence, I'm not ready to begin throwing money into a "black hole" in order to claim I have the latest gadget.

Finally, as a songwriter, how would one of these things help me be more creative? What music oriented apps are available and at what cost?

Thanks for unbiased answers. I'm only trying to approach this like I would a business asset acquisition.

I almost forgot, I don't use a cell phone and would not be keen on having that ability with a tablet unless it happens to be totally free.


Regards,

Dave Rice

Dave,

What do you want the PC for... if reading music look here, these are all coming down in price...



I wouldn't buy a Ipad for reading music much too small you need A4 size screen

Rice, I am experimenting with an Android tablet currently. So far I have not replaced my laptop with it, but I really haven't spent that much time with it.
I bought a program called Quick Office for a few dollars that is an excellent word processor/office suite. It's easy to display lyrics, pdfs, etc. I think the search functions are more limited than a PC.
I don't regret buying it at all, because it's great for surfing the internet while I'm watching TV. There are many free apps for it.
One big advantage of an android is that it can use USB storage, where Ipads can't. Also, you are not tied to Itunes.
DonM

Obviously Tony you are someone who has NOT used an Apple Retina display - let me tell you the clarity on the iPad far, FAR exceeds even the best laptop, obviating the need for a 12" (cumbersome on stage) laptop or tablet. And although a marginally less at 10.4" compared to the 12" (what's that, maybe 1.6" difference - about .28" less on each side) this is so NOT noticeable with the iPad screen running right to the edges.

I have compared a laptop and Android side by side...and even the best Android is not even close to the Retina display on the iPad 3 (even the iPad 2 is better in my view)....

And with the price of the iPad 3 now so competitive, for me, it's a no-brainer as the yanks like to say

For me laptops rule

We must be going blind Donny, I don't care how clear that new Ipad is it ain't big enough for me, unless it stuck on my nose. It would be interesting to find out how many folks on SZ read music off an Ipad, and I mean read full sheets of music big dots and little dots.

Tony

PS ...ASUS now make a 15" All IN ONE PC the will fit on your music rack, full PC power, not all this apple crap software they make you eat, it is only £295.00 windows based you can use anyones software, I don't like being held to ransome, and no one knows what happens when the Ipad battery goes, the trash can.

I love my iPad, wouldn't be without it, nor would I be without my Mac Book Pro. I use the iPad for specific functions and the MacBook pro with bootcamp running with Windows 7 for more intense computer stuff. Each serves their own purpose. For lead sheets the iPad using unReal book is the so called "goose that laid the golden egg". I also stopped paper subscriptions of both magazines and newspapers, they are great to read in digital form on the iPad. If I wanted to do more intense work with photos I take I'd rather work with them on the Mac Book Pro versus the iPad, even though they are plenty of photography apps that work very well on the iPad.

Well Tony as you do seem to like aphorisms
"...there are none so blind..."

Donny,

We will some be out numbered the troops are coming...Specsavers for me in the morning...I have just sussed it, I've been looking at the Ipad upside down... Big is big

I would imagine that many of SZ's readers are using Fakebook style charts, rather than full score. The smaller size isn't much of a disadvantage there.

But bottom line is, do you really want to go out on a professional show, and have a huge laptop or MusicpadPro perched in front of you, so you can read off of full charts, or do you want to LEARN the songs at home, and go out and do them without the charts, or at most either read some trigger lyrics (short phrases to 'trigger' your memory into remembering the full line) from your arranger's display, if it can do lyrics..?

What looks best to your audience?

But if you are doing this at home, a laptop or computer display is just fine. And you aren't limiting yourself to tablet apps and limited capabilities.

I tried the iPad and it is too small for me to read. But, I have to read the dots, not just lyrics and chord symbols . . . Gave the iPad to one of my sons and am still using the Music Pad Pro.

So Diki, you can remember over 500 songs (all the correct changes, ALL the correct lyrics?) to pick from at any one time? Wow I am impressed!!!!

Of course if one ONLY plays the same 55 songs over and over, well one does not need charts...

Bob,


So am I, there are a lot of goodies coming out on the market for reading music, the Ipad for me is not one, dropping down from a MPP to and Ipad is too much, we are in the lead now 3 to 2, might make more gold medals than you lot over here.. 4 to 2 with Diki on our side, well sort of???

I'll stick with my 9-inch display Acer Aspire Netbook - it does everything, weighs less than 2 pounds, I can read it from any angle, access the internet if need be, play MP3s, play midi files, anything a PC can do the netbook can do as well. There's no limitations that I can personally think of. It even has a built-in camera, and all for $249.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary,

You can take a photo or a video of you playing, cool!!! and the punters..I thought you were the resident musician not the photographer... the Acer runs windows thats best, I have the Icona..

Tony,

Do you mean something like these:

I put trigger lyrics into my arranger, and read them from there. Remembering the music, well that's never been an issue. Lyrics... well, I've usually been a secondary singer until the last few years, so that was never an issue, but as I sung more and more lead, I sometimes need the trigger phrases to get through it the first few times.

I simply feel that, look at the pros... the REAL stars, that is. Where are their laptops? You ever see Sinatra with a crib sheet? How many tunes do you think HE knew?

Actually, I've heard and seen the REAL stars screw up many of their most popular songs. Gotta' give them credit, though. They could really cover their mistakes quite well, and of course, they were working with live bands that also was able to cover those minor mishaps extremely well.

Most entertainers that I know have several hundred songs memorized quite well. Beyond that, we need some help, especially when it's a requested song that we rarely perform. And, there some instances where a brain-fart fires up. That happened with me one night while performing Margarettaville - couldn't remember the first line to save my life. My wife looked at me and mouthed "Nibblin' on sponge cake." and the rest of the words just popped into my head. I don't recall using the laptop at all that night and it was a 4-hour job. Those things just happen - even if you're sober.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary,

I walk in a room and forgot what I came in for, is that the same, I thought it was... Gary what was that song your wife nibblin prompted you???

Yep! Same thing, Tony.

Gary

Hells gary,


We can't see properly or remember anything anymore, what's left for us... please don't say NHS, I couldn't stand it if your turned up... I could feed the dog..

And that's where just having 'Nibbling on Spongecake' pop up on your arranger's screen suffices. Most modern arrangers have quite adequate lyrics displays. Quite a lot of them play MP3's. Some of them will even display a .bmp graphic file, which means you can convert a .pdf and display that.

As I said, what impresses you most when you go out to listen to someone ELSE play? Someone fully engaged with the audience, or someone reading off a chart?

I don't know Diki, give me a hint, I don't hear very well either, would that make a difference...

The only problem I have with that, Diki, is the screen is just too damned small for me to see, and I have to look down to see it. The netbook, as you can see in the photos above, doesn't obstruct my view of the audience, and while the netbook's screen is small, it's large enough to read when necessary. I looked at the Tyros4's lyrics display a few months ago and even with the larger fonts, it was still difficult to read. The same lyrics, in the same format, displayed on the netbook, were very easy to read. Some of this, however, may be due to the better display resolution on the netbook than on the keyboard.

Cheers,

Gary

The case with most "shows" as you well know Diki, is they are usually a pre-arranged and WELL-rehearsed set of maybe 12-25 tunes...And then performed for months at a time....the same way at the same time....

And again Diki I must say the fact that you can remember ALL the music to ALL the songs is astounding. I would love to be at at one of your shows and throw a tune at you to play

I think maybe that some of us at SZ have 40-60 tunes that we totally know...but having a rep of tunes (in my case currently 935 - I never play the same set of 60 or so songs at a gig twice) on a tablet, pc, ipad - whatever...not only makes it so much more enjoyable for audiences but make sit far more interesting and challenging for the player, in my view....

I've been there and done that with bands where the rep WAS limited to 60 songs that got absolutely flogged, so much so that I actually hate (no, REALLY hate!!) some of them now!!!

But being able to pick from such a vast list at any gig at any time, makes it a bit more exciting...And at times I don't even create a set list, I just go where the mood of the room takes me!!

I wish I could have the ability to recall from memory, note for note, 935 songs like you can....

I had always heard that Sinatra was using a telepromter in his later years. I heard a recent interview with Paul Mcartney in which he said that he struggles remembering lyrics to songs that HE wrote. According to this article Elton John, Mick Jagar, and Bruce Springstein use telepromters too.

Believe me, Sinatra used teleprompters, and NOT just in his later years ... I saw him live and had such great seats, I could read the 'prompters ... even his 'ad-libs' were pre - written ...

I've seen MANY shows on tv where you could see the teleprompters being used by some top artists ... saw Neil Diamond using them ... they may not absolutely NEED them, but they are there even if "just in case" ... the STAR doesn't want to make a 'faux pas' in front of the audience ... Just because they are stars doesn't mean they don't forget words ...

Thanks for your comments, guys:

So far, Mason understands what I'm looking for the most. I don't perform like most of you talented guys. I'm wanting a portable songwriting tool that just might have a few extra bells and whistles.

Don, I sure agree with you about iTunes. Not for me... way too invasive. When I store my original songs on my PC or MP3 Player I don't want Apple searching my device. I know it's a great platform for those who play songs and playlists of their favorite artists but I don't need it.

Some of the videos being bandied about depict a keyboard (albeit rather small) on an iPad or similar device. When I'm away from home, on the road or relaxing on the couch, it would be nice to knock out a few notes for the melody idea and then add some lyrics to the tune being created until I can get back in the studio to take the idea to the next level.

I also like the idea of being able to use it as a portable roadmap or weather radar mobile observation device. The other day, we were on the golf course and a sudden storm came up and my buddy was able to use his big fancy digital phone to see where it was, how big it was and what direction. That way, we could estimate how much of a delay we were facing or to decide to abandon the course and go home.

If the gizmo I eventually choose has an MP3 player and telephone App built-in, so be it. Word Processor and Spreadsheet capability would be nice... as well as a dictionary, rhyming dictionary and internet access for e-mail and surfing.

I know I've probably only scratched the surface but remember, I can't afford to write a blank check or run up a huge monthly bill. I didn't retire that well.

I'm looking forward to more replies, ideas and positive comments giving me the pros and cons about tablets and why certain models are better than others.

Keep 'em coming... and thanks.

Dave Rice

Not sure, but I'll bet I could do at least 250 songs, including lyrics, from memory. Probably could do 100 Merle, Hank, and the Georges songs from memory, plus endless 50's and 60's r&r.
There are a couple thousand on my laptop, tablet and keyboard. Still, nearly every night, I get requests for songs I probably should know but don't remember. Sometimes, if I can spare the time during the evening, instead of taking a break I'll make a quick trip to Youtube and/or Google searchand find it is worth a large tip.
I'm a prostitute. People pay me to play their favorite songs.
DonM

P.S. It is interesting that I never forget the songs I learned from listening to them and learning the chords by hearing. If I start out doing a song looking at lyrics and chords, or music sheet, it is really hard to not need them.

Very interesting observation...Same thing happens for me

+1

Gary

I have both, high end Toshiba Laptop and Motorola Xoom, but don't use either for any music applications (I use a hi-perf desktop in my 'studio'). So this only pertains to general use (probably not pertinent to this discussion, but.....). After the novelty of the tablet wore off (about a month and hundreds of mostly useless apps), I was back almost exclusively on the laptop. About the only thing I like about the tablet is the great battery life, about 10 hrs. In fact, I use a HP Touchsmart in my office and another Hi-perf desktop for video editing (3D/5.1). For what it's worth, my son is just the opposite and his tablet has essentially replaced his laptop for general use. Different strokes, I guess.

For some reason, I can remember songs from 40 years ago, lyrics, chords, and melody, but not our anniversary. Oh well.

chas

That's what I have, Motorola Xoom. It has some neat stuff, like two cameras, great Navigation app, etc. Jury is still out for music stuff though.
DonM

I know about the teleprompters, guys. But, unless we are talking about elderly stars in their twilight years, even those are few and far between. Not to mention, these are things that sit at their feet. It's is very unusual to see anyone reading from something at eye level.

C'mon! American Idol, or The Voice... you KNOW they'd get ripped a new one if they brought a laptop or iPad on stage for their act!

Dennis, I know where you're coming from, and I understand the need if you want to have such a huge repertoire at your fingertips. The thing is, that's primarily for YOUR entertainment rather than your audience's. How much of them is repeat business, and how many tend to be seeing you for the first time? You've got to have a VERY dedicated fan before you need more than a couple of hundred songs or so, often FAR fewer than that... and you know what? They are FAR more likely to keep asking you to do the same favorites of theirs over and over than they are to tell you they are getting bored of the same couple of hundred!

Nothing wrong with having a huge on demand repertoire, but it's not exactly needed. Me, I tend to think of my time onstage as THEIR time, not mine. If I get bored of the same songs all the time (and trust me, they keep asking for them!), I simply think 'I'm playing four hours for them... that leaves 20 in the day where I can play what I want to at home'!

Then we are BOTH happy.

Im playing the same songs for over 40 years....

I use a PC Desktop, but also have ASUS TF101 Tablet which I find excellent. Size as per Netbook Includes detectable keyboard & 2 USB ports. Keyboard contain Battery & Tablet also has battery, together gives upto 16 hrs usage.
I like the Android OS as it works fast and slick with thousands of free applications (programs).

I considered the iPad but the additions like USB & HDMI outputs are very costly.

Actually Diki, it is designed primarily for the audience, that it also works for me personally is a bonus. I actively encourage requests at my gigs, and at my regular haunts audiences usually trust and enjoy the selection I make for any given night. But they will also come up and ask for quite different tunes, for various reasons and you would know what they are...

My system allows me to, mostly, give them exactly what they want...unlike in the band days where I would have to B.S and say "...not tonight I am sorry , but we WILL have that one ready for you at the next gig..." knowing full well the patron probably would NOT be at the next gig...

Believe me when I say in the near two years I have been running this system, just once did someone enquire about the device I was using. The thing with the iPad is it is so unobtrusive...with the lift up screen on the PA3 (same as those using ipads with a Tyros with ITS lift up screen) hiding most of it...it REALLY is not that noticeable.

And for mine, having that ability to make a patrons night just that bit happier and enjoyable because I could play THEIR song, far FAR outweighs any possible negatives of using the iPad charts.

I also do not have my head stuck in the book, as it were, because most of the tunes on my 935 list (and growing - just about to add the Pink Floyd, Muse and My Chemical Romance songlists, oh and some Chopin nocturnes and ballads)
I have usually played at home a few times so I am familiar with them as soon as the chart pops up..I am also, if you allow me to say, very good at sight reading so even if it's a tune I have not seen, there is usually no problem.... not the classicals though - they take a bit more work!!!! (:D LOTS more)

So really, having this large rep IS all for the audience.....not that I am making any criticisms of anybody, but those who simply play the same songs over and over again are possibly either scared to try something new, too comfortable in just repeating what they did last week, or are just a bit complacent.

The need to learn hundreds of songs so completely that it requires no assistance to recall, is daunting, maybe even impossible so I understand why those who eschew using charts do stick to a small but repeatable rep....it maybe a an incorrect view, but there you have it.

It is really easy to pick performers who have played songs to death, no matter HOW hard they try to disguise it, and this also permeates to the audience I think...

And playing new stuff all the time also stops it all becoming rather just like a "job" I have ALWAYS promised myself that if one day I woke up and discovered doing gigs had turned into a "job", that would be the day I quit!!

Dennis

I say if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Whatever works, Dennis. I am lucky, I guess, in that coming originally from a classical background, the number of times I play a piece doesn't really have any effect on me. I mean, can you imagine how many times the Berlin Philharmonic has played Beethoven's Ninth, or Fifth?! I doubt you will EVER see them groan or roll their eyes or communicate anything other than reverence for the music and delight to be able to play it for their audience.

Same here. Margaritaville? No problem. It's a tune, no better or worse than any other. I tend to be simply happy if I'm playing..!

I certainly don't have anywhere NEAR the repertoire that you have on call, but what I do have doesn't require a chart. Swings and roundabouts, I suppose. My main way of increasing what I play in public is mostly to play a LOT with other people. I still prefer to work in more of the sideman or accompanist role. My voice is OK enough to do solos, but there are so many others FAR better than me! So, in the end, I end up not only having to learn MY repertoire, but that of many other people too. So I guess (I've never really bothered to count) it's reasonably up there.

But that sounds like a great act you have got going there, Dennis. I wish I could make it to Oz one day and come see it.

Just curious. How many of you can sight transpose a chart on the fly, especially an up-tempo number? Just speaking for myself, but I find it much easier to transpose a tune I already know well, in fact, I really CAN'T transpose even a chord (fakebook) sheet on the fly if it complicated and I really don't know it. I don't think so much 'transpose' as much as just playing it in a different key (same thing but not really - it's a mental thing). Of course, IF I have to play it not in the original key (I have always learned all tunes in the original key), then the new key had better be C, Eb, F, G, Bb, or their relative minors .

Most guys that play mostly jazz know most of the 100-150 most popular so-called jazz standards. In most jazz clubs, it's going to be either that or original material. Doesn't get old though, as most jazz audiences actually WANT to hear something familiar, just with a new take on it. At least that's been my experience. They are much more tolerant of an oft-played tune than a lousy performance. As for the (jazz) players, it always a pleasant challenge to see what else you can do with it (the tune). You rarely see a chart in a jazz club if the group is less than five players. Not saying it's good or bad, just the way it is.

chas

I used to be able to transpose on the fly, even a new chart, as long as it was not "dot heavy". Tempo is not really an issue as it was "ground" into me when I was taking lessons to ALWAYS read a bar or two in front, which of course is now an ingrained habit! So I can be playing one but reading the bar two even sometimes three in front getting my mind onto a coming change.

Sadly these days, I have let those skills wane as more and more I simply get lazy and just use the transpose button, especially to the 4+ sharp keys (always had a problem with sharp keys, but not so much with flats, go figure hey!)

Transposing is a skill that needs constant practice to maintain adequate ability in my view...It's not like just "knowing chords" it is more than that, and the people who cna do it well, impress the hell out of me!!

Interesting point re the jazz tunes Chas...That is my experience too, as the number of jazz tunes I have on the iPad is only about 120 or so...and the folks I play to don't seem to tire of those anywhere near as much as the "popular" songs. Could also be that I rarely play the same jazz tune twice the same way, if ever!! Which sorta kinda reinforces what you are saying

Dennis

In my case the advantage over a laptop is having a really portable sequencer (that actually works compared to the onboard Tyros sequencer) on the musicstand. This gives me a great workflow. I've been experimenting with several music apps for quite a while. The progress they make with these music apps is amazing.



Best Regards,

Joost

I purchased an Android tablet a year ago with the intention of using it on stage with my G70 (replacing the more visible laptop)..

Two failures to me so far...battery life on mt tablet is about 2 and a half hours, compared to 5 plus on the laptop...and finding a player that stops after each song, and has a better search without a touch screen error....

The laptop out does the tablet in every way....and I didn't even touch base about the needed extra power to run VST's etc..

Can I use the tablet..yes...do I? yes on a limited basis..

The importance of the laptop/tablet..is nill..since I purchased the BK5...it does the job better, anyway..

BTW: the plus side, the tablet I have is 250g storage ...so I knew it would have a shorter battery life..

Why does everyone want to "HIDE" the lap top on stage .....
who are we trying to fool?.. Playing an Arranger KB that uses computerized Automatic style accompaniment and synthesized sounds to create the sound of a so called "real band" which is fake enough,... then, people want to hide a laptop which can be used to enhance your performance in so many ways also....the audience isn't fooled, although some players think so, ....your sitting there alone making all this music but the band members aren't there, and then people don't see them either, oh boy What a Surprise ....
So why the cloak of secrecy & incognito like thoughts? ......I say just use "all the tools" available to you "PROUDLY", that you need to make great music, and have fun doing it.
People will appreciate "your talents" all the more !
People.... come out of the closet and open your heart & soul to the masses ...you'll feel better for it for sure!!

Hells Bells, Donnie. Most still think we're DJs. I had people in a restaurant where I played last night that didn't think it was singing the songs, let alone playing them on the keyboard. They thought it was a CD. When one lady discovered it was me singing her favorite song she came up to the stage, give me a kiss, and asked for a card so she could hire me for a private party next summer. Fortunately, this no longer upsets me like it used to. I just go with the flow, so to speak.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary.....agreed.....embrace it all...

Just one small point I would like to add...a tablet or laptop (whatever) does not JUST have to be for charts...I have read about many big name keyboardists who use these tools, but with notes on song set ups and patch combos, even things as simple as the songlist for the night or lighting notes...So it is useful for so many other things.....

Obviously tablets are more portable than a laptop, and a tablet battery life is usually longer. Apps made for a tablet are inexpensive, making them versatile.

Laptops generally have more power than a tablet, and of course have an actual keyboard interface, along with various USB inputs and other connections.

So Dave, in my opinion both have their advantages, but I. like Gary, currently use a netbook, which may be a nice compromise, something in between a laptop and a tablet.

Not to confuse you any further, I'm actually considering something like this....



Netbook WolVol ...a netbook that is android based.

and only $180, should work fine for music arranging and score reading

Donny,

I couldn't agree more, sock it to um Donny, hells you're not always right but you are on this one..

Dave,

Even I am confused now Larry's weighed in with the net book, hells this is so easy, Bill Abacus said when buying headphones use your ears to judge which is best and if they look cool on your nut and sound good buy them... on this matter it's a no brainer... if you are reading music from the screen and you can't see the dots you have the wrong equipment, all the battery crap is a smoke screen, you already have power to your KB so use the power lead to your laptop or I pad, the I pad was never made to read music from, maybe you can use it for that and the screen resolution is off the Richter scale an all the rest of screen resolution are tosh compared to it, but it's too small for me and size matters as we all know, especially your side of the pond everything is bigger. (BIG MAC) you started it!!! Dave take not one bit of notice what has been said here, go down the shop and use your eyes.

Tony

PS if you buy the I pad entering data via the screen is for kids, buy a big tablet or laptop like I posted first you in there with the proffs...

Confuse you more now Dave.

http://www.squidoo.com/footime-page-turner

99 bucks and your problems are solved Dave, the best of both Worlds

http://www.amazon.com/AOC-e1649Fwu-Porta...3905&sr=8-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_LrPu_Qk9k

[quote=travlin'easysummer. I just go with the flow, so to speak.

Cheers,

Gary [/quote]

Gary,

Bladder problem now hey.... don't so much before gigs..

All joking apart, I do hope you are OK, health is very important, more important than bloody kids toy I Pads, I hate Apple rip offs, they spend more time in court than making big screens that people want. Too highly price also. Come to think of it how many of you have an Apple PC, haaaa gotya, you wouldn't even dream of it, because you can get the same for 1/4 the price.

Cheers Gary

Wow Gary, that's a really old picture of me. I no longer have that keyboard, the Peavey Escort, the 16" laptop, or the semi-beard for that matter.
DonM

You look very well turned-out Don, is that money in the gold fish bowl??? and Gary does on the Piano, Gary's got no dots, looks like his party has all gone home..

Cheers

Yes it's money. I tip the customers to not leave.

DonM

Whatever works for you, Donny.

Some of us prefer to still look like MUSICIANS, not data entry office workers, tho...

LOL!! That's a bit harsh

Sorry, yes... well, a bit tongue in cheek, maybe. By SZ standards quite mild!

I've worked both kinds of gigs, Dennis. No charts at all, and bigband with huge books. I guess on the type of gig that it's appropriate for, nothing wrong with a chart, or iPad, etc..

It's just that, more and more, I see them starting to be used on gigs that, in the past, the performer would NEVER use charts. Maybe with the iPad/Pod/Phone-crazed world it has apparently turned into, when the kids see an iPad on stage they go 'Wow! Look how cool he is... he's using an iPad' whereas, when I was a youngster, we would go 'Wow! Look.... he doesn't know the songs!'

Yeah I guess, Diki fair points you make...but I tend to focus more on what the artist is doing rather than what they are using...