Whitney Houston is dead and I really don't care. I get so sick of people who have it all, money, fame, and stardom and screw it up with drugs and other things. The list is endless, filled with people who can't seem to handle success. I really don't care anymore. Whitney was hardly one of the all time greats. Most of the females on the Grammys last night were every bit as good. To compare her to the likes of Rosemary, Ella, Karen, K.D., Diana and others that were truly great over a long period of time is ludicrous. Look at all the superstars here on the forum, Donny, Fran, Don Mason, Scott Yee, and Eddie Shoemaker. None of them are having trouble handling their stardom.

To be honest, I wasn't saddened nearly as much as I would have been if she were killed in a car wreck or plane crash. Still, it's a shame that such a talent was ultimately wasted. I'm not going to judge. Someone else will take care of that.
Maybe she's jammin' with Elvis, Jimmy H., Janis and the multitude of others who couldn't handle life in the fast lane.
As for drugs, I depend on tips to help pay for my aspirin and viagra. I could never afford the good stuff. . . bad stuff.
But then I was never tempted. Thank God and my parents.
DonM

Amen guys...I have zero tolerance for drug users..Now and 40 years ago...If you want to prove you are a loser...do drugs..

"We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”~Paulo Coelho.

“When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.”~Wayne Dyer

As a person who's life has been touched very closely by addiction, those two quotes sum it all up for me.


Ian

PS...You know guys, perhaps stuff like this should really be in the bar...it has nothing whatsoever to do with arrangers.

It took me a while to decide to post this, should I or shouldn't I ? I decided for whatever it's worth another point of view may help.

First I don't believe anyone's a jerk because they have an opinion that is different from what others think.

I can stay this without question addiction is a horrible thing, some are luckier than others some have been blessed to beat those addictions others have not or cannot for a variety of reasons. There's many text books that explore the issue. Unfortunately, money, fame or fortune cannot beat addiction and many times those characteristics make it even tougher to beat those demons. Sometimes it's easier for one who has nothing or next to nothing to beat them than the man or woman who has a house cash and talent. Whitney was one of the unlucky ones and I'm sure she didn't believe them when they told her if she didn't stop using there would be 3 options, death, jail or the asylum.

Sorry if I'm sounding like a preacher or got too philosophical, that's just my 2 cents.

[quote=ianmcnll]"We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”~Paulo Coelho.

“When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.”~Wayne Dyer

Those two quotes sum it all up for me.


Ian Quote






Discussion here is fine...if it gets the point across...and I disagree with your counter view...I know you had some experience in the drug world...It ruins lives and lives of innocent family members...My wife's brother was an example ..died via drugs at 46..left twin 8 year old girls..they in turn were not told about drugs taking their father..their mother didn't want them to know...it would have been a great lesson for them...expand the story..the mother died (heart) and left the girls alone at 14...and they know the history now, with many struggles , defiant and yes drugs too...

No excuses Ian..drugs are just dumb, and to justify one that uses is a losers game...

Of course drugs are dumb Fran, but, unless you have suffered from addiction yourself, you really can't talk the talk, if you haven't actually walked the walk.

Anyone who justifies drug use plays the loser's game every bit as much as someone who judges without having actually walked in the other person's shoes.

And yes, I think a subject as sensitive as this one, probably should be in the bar...it serves no actual purpose on a General Arranger Forum...there are plenty of other sites that deal far more knowledgeably, objectively and thoroughly with drugs, addictions, and their consequences on human life.


Ian

My ex wife died from drugs at 32 years old ....standing at the coffin with my 12 yr old son was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life.... I agree with Frans post 100%.

We can't simply say that someone is a bum because they went down the wrong path. Human beings are frail. Not everybody is going to do the straight and narrow. THAT is a fact. As for me, empathy is a super powerful force inside me, for some reason. My mother, I suppose.

Drugs have a powerful hold on people. Tragedy is nothing new. Blame whoever invented wine. Jesus?

Yes perhaps it should have been discussed in the bar but the orginal post about her death was here. I didn't know I was being judgemental just because I said I really didn't care that much and have become numb after seeing so many others take this path.

No one said you were judgemental, Tom.

I just posted two quotes, and my own opinion about this thread.

Ian

Never sadened never will be...i mentioned this long ago...Michael Jackson, Amy WhineHouse, Whitney Houston,
Elvis Presley, Heat Ledger and many others...i simply never gave a rats ass...i know, it sounds unhumand but
thats me...what the hell, my parrents died when i was only 4, both, in the same day, car accident, my life
goes on...i can live without all of those mentioned...but i do care about few Cops that i knew
personally and they died...of cancer...working on Ground Zero after 9-11.

I am more pissed at the outpouring of sorrow and love for these "Stars", but when we lose one of our soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan, it's not even given an afterthought. That really PISSES me off! They are the real hero's and should be treated with more reverence, respect, and rememberance.

The real tragedy is for her loved ones that have to live through the grief.

I heard her daughter is on drugs too...is that true?

I suppose I am a "jerk" too because I also find it difficult to feel much of anything for those who have it all and end up dead because of drugs.

Deane

Ok, here's my take . . .

Regardless of whatever demons Whitney went through,
she and her music and awesome voice were a tremendous inspration to me,
esp when I first started singing back in the late 80's, and I am deeply saddened by her death.
The 'only' people I have little sympathy for are murderers and rapists, and I believe Ms. Houston was far from that.
Until any of us has reached and had to endure the degree of fame and celebrity status Whitney Houston achieved,
we may never fully understand why she and so many other celebrities fall into that drug dependent downward spin.

RIP Whitney.

-Scott

I can’t comment about drugs or smoking because I did neither, I did a bit of drinking for England which I stopped when I realised if I didn’t I would not see my granddaughters grow up. I will come in the middle of this, smokers appear to have one hell of a job giving up because it’s highly addictive, I would think on the Richter scale taking drugs must be more addictive and more devastating to those around the user. The problem is once you starting taking drugs it must be more difficult to stop; stars do not have a money problem to get drugs unlike low life that need to rob to get their fix. There will always be sad stories like this and it will go on until the end of time. You guys here on SZ won’t fix the World, so stop trying, just be glad that you don’t have a monkey on your shoulder you can’t get rid of, we are the lucky ones. Donny’s story should stop you in your tracks and should end this thread. I am afraid to say it like shooting foxes, if you lined all the drug users up against the wall vented your anger on them and dispatched them has un-humanly as possible, it would all start over again. Like you said it was a bad idea to start this thread here or anywhere for that matter. It’s not for us so faultless ones to judge others.

PS Tom I don't know why you thought you were the only jerk on CZ, it's obvious your not!!! no funnies

Was it really necessary to post:

Because she may have died from a drug problem?

I'm stunned that anyone who agreed with this comment needed to do so in writing.

Maybe it's just my liberal bleeding heart, but perhaps a little caring may have saved her and a little caring may save others from the same fate.

Spot on Larry.

My deepest sympathies, Donny, to you and your son...we have all lost loved ones through tragedy connected with addiction...my adopted parents were killed on Christmas Eve in a car accident when I was just a wee lad...hit by a drunk driver (a confirmed alcoholic)...he never got a scratch on him.

Ian

Well said, Larry...I am in complete agreement.

Ian

You want me to feel sorry for this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytJpZguSy2U
NAH! NEVER! She thought she is tough...Crack was too WEAK for her.

The person I really feel sorry for is her mother Cissy Houston. She is one of my all time favorite singers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIWFv094VR0&feature=related

And out of respect for her I wouldn't have posted a thread like this because I know how much it would upset her. Think about how you would feel if it was about one of your children that died regardless of their lifestyle choices. And by now it would have been indexed by Google and will be found in searches.

How especially poignant to hear these Cissy Houston songs now today. It's clear where Whitney got her beautiful voice from:

Exactly Scott. And it is so so sad hearing her sing "Yesterday" considering what has happened. The lyrics she is singing must be just how she feels now Whitney has died.

Cissy also sings on this track "Creepin" from Herbie Mann "Surprises" which is a gem of an album that really never got the attention it deserved. Every track on this album is magic. That is something in this digital age of just grabbing the odd track from an album that people miss out on. When I bought an album I would listen to it over and over in its entirety. After a number of listens tracks that didn't stand out at first ended up becoming my favorites over time. That is an experience that people don't have now.

You're right, Nigel...that is s gem. no pitch controllers, no digital recording equipment...manual mixing...these recordings were carefully crafted pieces of art.


I miss those days, and really appreciate Cissy's quiet graciousness and tremendous talent.

I wish the best for her in these rough days.


Russ

Whitney Houston was a major vocal talent in her day. I was never a big fan but I must say her rendition the National Anthem was very, very well done mostly to a LACK of vocal emmbelleshments. (sp?) So many singers in that genre go way overboard for my taste.

Re: the drug comments.

This is to the group, but mostly to Fran.

Our daughter was kidnapped when she was 8 years old and held in a farmhouse in SW Pennsylvania for five weeks until we got her back. Years of therapy, counseling, support, etc. couldn't return her to the happy, well adjusted little girl she was prior to her abduction. Since then its been a steady stream of drugs, crime, promiscuity, multiple suicide attempts, etc. It has been hell...

More than one mental health professional has counseled my wife and I to prepare for her death at some point. Her odds of surviving were miniscuel at best we were told.

However, about 2 years ago she started to clean up. She's off the heroin and has been in a rehab program for the last 18 months. She drives an hour both ways 7 days a week to get her medicine that satisfies her cravings. She's married, she has a beautiful little boy and a little girl is due in July. She and her husband live are living with us for now to help them transition into a place of their own come next Fall. From everything we've seen, she's a good mom. Determined to move forward, not backwards for the sake of herself and her family.

Not too bad for a kid we were told over and over again would be dead by now.

If you're me, how exactly do you consider this human a "loser" for her involvement with drugs?

I can't think of anything in my entire life that begins to compare to the struggles she's overcoming. I just can't.

You and me aren't kids anymore. We've been around the block, eh?

You should know better, my friend.

Bill, I am sorry to hear your story...but I believe and stand by my quote..."drugs are for losers"...to make the choice of using drugs, and the after math, proves my point...

Just use your daughter as an example..she became the winner , without drugs...not with the drugs...

I wish her nothing but success, but I have seen so many that did not, and brought so much sadness to their families...by their own choice to use drugs....Surely you must see my point..

Addictions at that level are powerful things. I've sat in the rehab center parking lot and watched another junkie come out, puke on the ground because the medicine (methodone) often upsets the stomach, and then watch that person drop to the ground scoop up their own vomit and eat it because the idea of getting through the day without the medicine/fix is worse than death.

Sometimes people are victims, sometimes people are weak, etc.

"Sometimes people are victims, sometimes people are weak, etc"





Bill that is why we need to be firm, and educate young people about the consequences...There is no such thing as "recreational drugs"......

The time to reach young people is before they "try" drugs..

Condoning or excusing drug use...is just plain wrong...and I have never taking this subject lightly..it is one of the downfalls of society, and it has to be dealt with...now.

It needs to be addressed in our homes, with strong convictions...It needs to be addressed in the courts , with stronger "convictions"...

Fran-We did.

Both Patty and I are educated. She has a Masters in Nursing, plus a BA in education. I have a Degree in performance plus a bachelors in Business Administration. There are zero drugs in the home. Neither of us smoke or drink. We did all the anti drug programs that were offered in our area. Our other two girls have no issues with drugs.

Obviously the kidnapping was the game changer.

To your last point about stronger sentencing for drug users, I'd point you towards what Portugal did with their drug problem.

Read about it TIME here, Forbes here and Time here...

All of that said, Portugal isn't the USA, so who knows if it would be as successful here as it was there? What I do know is that the "war on drugs" has been a monumental waste of time and money. While not generally a fan of Republicans I support Ron Paul's stance on this. Legalize most drugs, pursue drug sellers and distributors and offer counseling/treatment instead of incarceration. It works better, its more in line with preserving our civil liberties and costs a lot less...

Sorry Fran, that's a pretty naive view. Do you know how much "trying" of drugs goes on in schoolyards everywhere? As a parent, you surely must know that you can't keep kids, especially as they get a bit older, under your surveillance 24/7. Something like crack, one of the most widely used drugs is available all over the place, and one hit and it's got you.

Trying is part of the rebellion/exploration inherent in young people. Not only that, but peer pressure is a very powerful component at these young ages. The need to be 'cool', 'popular', etc. Have you forgotten all that from your own younger years? I take it you did "try" sex for the first time out of your parents' watchful gaze, didn't you? You may have "tried" a cigarette for the first time in some sort of clandestine fashion, didn't you? If you'd "tried" to steal a candy bar from Woolworths it would have been out of sight of anyone, wouldn't it?

Sex, cigarettes and theft, while not life destroying by themselves (except for cigarettes) can all morph into addiction. So when "trying" a drug, yes even for the first time, it more often than not escalates into an addition all too easily and swiftly, especially with the encouragement of the guy pushing the stuff.

War on drugs? That's been about as successful as the war on terrorism. Of course, that doesn't mean we should give up "trying", does it?.

Naive view...far from it..I can only base what has worked for me and my family...

Maybe explaining the above story to your youngsters instead of justifying to me that it won't work...could be part of the solution...Here is a hint...it works...

Peer pressure for kids can be large, but offset that with "not wanting to fail in the eyes of parents" can be a stronger pressure...and when it is shown in "black and white" ...that it is wrong, and literally stupid....they will grow up with the proper attitude to teach their kids...

I am so tired of cop outs, and blaming surroundings and peer pressure...If parents did their part from day one, we would have a higher success rate with "war against drugs"..

I have said this before..but let me re confirm...

My parents did not do drugs (example to me), other than my mother's addiction to smoking cigs (in itself another great lesson)...

My brother and I did no drugs , not even smoking cigs..My wife , 4 children, their spouses, and my 6 grandchildren..do no drugs...and they do not smoke.......Coincedence?..Not a chance..Firm teaching and explaining the downfall while they are young...they will see enough examples around them without the need for family examples..

I will continue to be the outspoken one...it seems to work..

Fran, I'm not blaming surroundings or peer pressure, I'm merely pointing out some realities and just how strong those factors that I mentioned really are. I think we can agree that drug abusers come from all kinds of families, good and bad.

Like yourself, my wife and I have been doing our part from day one. How else would our older daughter now be a surgeon, and our younger one a Registered Psychologist? No abuse of anything by either of them and, much as I'd like to think that was entirely because of our efforts in their upbringing, it could well have been a case of 'but for the grace of God'.

Again, similar to your own situation, my parents did no drugs - again, apart from my mother being a heavy smoker, which I'm sure was instrumental in my staying away from cigarettes. Never smoked, drank, done drugs myself, the wife neither.

So you see we share some similarities. But I do honestly believe that the slide into drug abuse has contributing factors other than strong parenting.

Of course you are correct...but "strong parenting" is the missing attribute in so many cases..