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Bill

The only thing Yamaha is listening to is their own wallet, why havent they created a 76 key TOTL aranger ever since the 9000 pro?


If they want something truely astonishing you should be able to operate it intuitively while selecting programs and sounds.... but beneath the hood there should be an immeasurable depth tweaking the instrument... totally unnecessary to use by most players that just want to enjoy the standard choices, but very neccessary for pros that want to create their own sounds...


And inside what looks like the standard arranger engine, there should be a hidden Karma .. and inside the Seuqnecer there should be a live MAtrix... not visible when unneeded but selectable when you wanted it..

and several different sound engines to cooperate deep inside the instrument...

But most of all, if it was an arranger, the means to controll the expressiveness of the sound with sliders/ pedals/ X-y pads/ knobs / d-beams and whatever neccesary... but then this would be conflicting with the easy to opperate instrument, but so neccesary to allow for the expressiveness that future generations of keyboard artists need.

I would like to see the likes of Jamstix3 software auto implemented to styles to make the drums a little different each time and add a more human feel. If something similar is already available apologies as I have been out of the loop for ages. Obviously this should be user controlled from off up to varying degrees of rhythm freedom every few bars.

Bachus, Yamaha sells every Tyros4 they make...some stores are back-ordered, and the Tyros4 has allegedly outsold both Tyros2 and Tyros 3 combined.

Nope, they ain't making what you want...but, quite obviously, they are making what the majority want, and the company has obviously learned that you can't please everyone, and to do so, is usually a disaster, both in the corporate world, and also in our personal lives.

The goal is to please the home playing amateur and advanced players, as well as cater to some professionals...seems they have it covered pretty well, in my opinion.
Ian

I should say, Bachus, that I'm sure Yamaha reads these forums, and, in any case, I pass on anything pertinent on other people's wish lists (including yours) for the next Tyros instrument to my superiors.

So please keep posting suggestions.

Ian

So Ian, obviously you can't open up too much, but what are your own gut feelings about what Yamaha might have coming down the pipe? Do any of Bachus' musings/wishes strike a chord with you?

I honestly have no idea what's on the way with the next Tyros (or the S-series)...and I feel it will be still called "Tyros" as it is now a recognizable name like Motif or Clavinova.

Although I'm expected to provide input (and I am very grateful for that ability), I am still only a small spoke in a very big wheel, and I'm definitely not privy to what's coming up.

Personally, I feel that Yamaha has been trying to strike a balance with what I said earlier, with instruments designed for amateur and advanced home players, plus a smattering of professionals using them in their act, so changes will be, as they have been, more of an evolutionary type, rather than revolutionary.

I'm quite sure the same characteristic sound will remain, although, again, it may evolve, but not to where it starts sounding like one of the competitors; if it did, we wouldn't have a choice for what we want to hear coming out of our speakers.

Hopefully, some (or all) of the stuff Bachus has suggested will eventually appear on an arranger; whether it be a Yamaha or not, is still something that can't be answered.

Ian

Thanks, Ian. Can't say fairer than that.

What it is gonna be is gonna cost alot more then what we have now on the market....I could easily see a TOTL $5000.00 Tyros 5 and a $2500.00 MOTL S950 ...Yamaha has a fierce loyal following and just like cigarettes no matter how high the price per pack people will always buy and smoke.....& purchase the next latest & greatest Tyros models & beyond.
Hey it's only money right?..

Or, as our old guitarist used to say, "It's only another gig a week."

Ian is on the nail here. I would think 95% (or more) of Tyros owners are ex home organists who are not very good players, but what they do have is enthusiasm, money and a love of the organ and keyboard world. In the UK the Tyros outsells every other arranger by at least a ratio of 20:1. Its because Ketron are viewed as a professional keyboard, the Korg is a kind of crossover and the Tyros is 'their' keyboard. It exists simply because the Home Organists had nowhere else to go after Yamaha and Technics disapeared. Roland lost the edge because they did not understand the most lucrative market: the retired home organist and Hammond were plagued by EU regulations and threw in the towel.

The Tyros was a stroke of genius by Yamaha and I am absolutely convinced this keyboard primarily exists for the very strong UK market (you chaps benefit from it) It might seem odd to someone who does not live in the UK, but I would bet money that Yamaha sells more keyboards in England, NI, Wales and parts of Scotland than they do the rest of the planet put together.

If there is a Tyros 5 (which I believe there will be) its viewed by people here as an 'upgrade' and released by Yamaha at the perfect moment when their owners are getting a little bored and looking at jumping ship. Its already happened this way three times.

Its a hard fact that the word Tyros is Latin for 'Novice Or Beginner'...and no doubt how the Japanese see the Tyros Market. Just compare the average ability of a Stagea player in Japan to the average ability of a Tyros owner and the penny drops with a loud and very uncomfortable clang.

Ha Ha...I wasn't going to respond, but, I believe we should clarify a few things here, at least from my own perspective (and experience).

I suppose that's what it might be in your neck of the woods, but here in Canada, especially the Maritimes, Quebec, and British Columbia, where the arranger markets are strongest, most Tyros owners are retired professional players, or people who played most of lives (many ex-high end Electone users) yet had a day job, and the degree of musicianship is at a level, most likely, higher than your own.

Here in the Maritimes, almost all of my Tyros clients are extremely good (advanced) players, and quite a few are gigging steadily (usually weekends), and definitely are well above average in skills.

And yes, many trade up to the next model...why?

Because, financially they can, for one reason...so it costs John Doe $1000 every time he trades up his old arranger to the latest...over just one year that's about $20 a week...many hobbies cost a lot more than that!

And yes, if you are making your living at arranger playing, the cost may be more of a factor, but, consider that the pro claims a certain portion of equipment costs on his income tax.

I have never played an Audya...actually I've never seen or heard one in person, and I travel quite a bit...not one dealer in my area will carry the product...not sure why, as they do sell the occasional,(and allegedly more pro orientated) Korg PA3X/PA2X. Talking with several SZ Audya users via PM, it appears there are (or have been) reliability issues, and lack of proper support, and thankfully, at Yamaha, that's usually not a problem, and, it certainly makes my job a complete pleasure.

I definitely agree that the concept of the Tyros was a stroke of genius...if only some of that would spread to Roland and some of the other competitors (although Korg has been no slouch lately). I'm a 62 year old, life long pro player (semi-retired), with extensive (and perhaps, expensive ) experience on Piano, Synthesizer, Rhodes, Hammond B-3, high end Electone (HX), and the Tyros (in my case a Tyros4) is absolutely a joy to play, and is totally satisfying in features and sound.

Judging by it's huge success in the the market, and high percentage of advanced players (in my experience), I'd say I am not alone by any stretch of the imagination.

Ian

I don't know the sales figures for Canada Ian but it does seem to me the Tyros Market is pretty much the same in your area, and it sounds as though the level of competance is higher than in the UK. I genuinely don't mean to appear rude to Tyros owners, they love music and the Tyros has enabled them to sound realy good with limited ability which makes owning one so much more enjoyable and fulfilling. But these people do get bored and 1.5 to 2 years is pretty much the limit to owning one. (less if new styles are not forthcoming)

Of course I may be wrong..(and I wish I was wrong, because the name sits very uncomfortably with me and I do find it slightly insulting) but I realy believe the key to understanding the Tyros Philosphy is in the name. Suddenly you realise why it does not need 76 keys or a hammer action version, does not need to be metal, has to have large colourful easy to access buttons and easy to use features and new models appear every 18 months or so.

ty·ro also ti·ro (tr)
n. pl. ty·ros also ti·ros
A beginner in learning something.

But what I find most frustrating is how do we move forward? How is it possible to appeal to younger players or to market a keyboard to them? Japan has the educational structure (just check youtube at the average age - and ability of people playing compared to in the west). In the west we are to busy trying to get C grades in english, science and math to worry about the arts to any degree.

I have a feeling I am going to deep though and the subject is far bigger than this thread - or this forum.

Heck, it's far from frustrating here...Yamaha sells as many Tyros as they make...again, allegedly more than Tyros2 and Tyros3 combined, and murderously more than the Audya...of course, the last is a pro instrument, I suppose.

I suspect Yamaha will move forward as it always has...evolutionary changes as opposed to revolutionary, mainly because the company is huge and has lots of R&D resourses (as well as great marketing research) and although you, yourself, might be uncomfortable with the name (I think it's kind of cool and catchy), I'm sure it makes very little difference when the profits roll in.

I mean, what's in a name? You are called Tonewheeldude, but your posts don't come across as you being "a dude"...the original use of "dude" implied an individual unfamiliar with the demands of life outside of urban settings, as in dude ranch, a ranch catering to urbanites seeking more rural experiences. This usage continues into the present.


One of the earliest books to use the word was The Home and Farm Manual, written by Jonathan Periam in 1883. In that work, Periam used the term "dude" several times to denote an ill-bred and ignorant, but ostentatious, man from the city.


And, I'm almost sure you aren't comprised of "tonewheels"...so, there you have it.

I guess the most important thing for most music dealers like yourself, is that the Tyros name is synonymous with profits, and just as important, to the player, it quite simply means an extremely powerful, versatile arranger that is a joy to play, regardless of whether you are a seasoned pro, or an amateur.

As for the subject of Yamaha's purpose with the Tyros line...it has been discussed many times on SZ.

Ian

PS...Yamaha has successfully been developing and selling arrangers since 1980 (even longer if you count some Electone models), so I'd say they do have a rather firm grasp of the product.

Honestly to me ......Yamaha arrangers are just a replacement for the old BIG wooden HOME ORGANS....I also think that is their target & marketing audience....not a bad thing just my observation.

Why in the World would Yamaha name it Tyros knowing it meant a "beginner in learning something"?

Many words that are spelled the same can have two completely different meanings (homonyms)
bank, crop, bear, peer, sink, fritter, pants, slip, slide, dry, fit, class, shine, creep, divide, page, gin, trip, keel, ship, fall, hedge, needle, scrape, riddle, throw,train are all examples of words that have different meanings.

Therefore Tyros may mean "beginner", but it also means "home and pro arranger keyboard"

Don't think for one second Yamaha designs their arranger products for the professional market, that simply isn't their target audience. If you did a demographic you'd find most owners to be elderly, retired, middle class, non professionals. The bulk of the remaining purchasers are parents who buy the arranger for their children to play with. Any professional who buys and uses these products probably doesn't make up 1% of the overall sales. Another thing to consider is that arranger sales as a whole are minuscule compared to all other electronic keyboards. Ian claims the Tyros 4 has outsold the Tyros 2 and 3 combined and I'd find that difficult to believe. Why? Because keyboards of any type be it arranger, professional, or otherwise that cost more than a few thousand dollars do not sell in high numbers. Tens of thousands sold would be an astronomical wonder. The majority of these products sell very low numbers but the manufacturing cost is low enough for the manufacturer to recoup and make some profit. The higher end products are merely launching pads to sell lower end product by incorporating many of the same features at a much lower price point.

If you're expecting any new product from Yamaha to vastly improve on the existing Tyros 4 it won't happen. Yamaha could do it but it would hinder sales overall and make future product much more difficult to design. If they manufactured a model that was at the pinnacle of what technology has to offer, they'd need to develop new technology to supersede it which would be more costly than the returns.

It also means, "big profits" for music store owners.

Ian

Then what happened to all the pro features?

Yes it has got some very good sounds and styles (if you like that kind of styles) And yes it allows the pros to excell when playing a T4...

But... where are the prof features you can find on the Korg Pro instruments, like PA3X and KRONOS... Or on Yamaha's own pro line the MOTIF..

I dont think Yamaha is aiming at the pros at all, because in Yamahas vocabullary, pros don't play arrangers, they play workstations. The Tyros 4 is there to make ammateurs like me sound like the pros do...


The T4 is not aimed at begginers either, its aimed as said before at the wealthy amateurs that want to sound like the pros and it soes a very good job at that.

If you don't get PAID to play you are not a pro IMO.

You are right. I am a amateur using a Pro arranger

You are partially right, Bachus, in that the Tyros4 is not specifically "aimed" at "pros"...however, that hasn't stopped many professional players from using the instrument. In fact, many pros also use it's baby brother, the PSR-S910.

Some arranger players, including pros, just happen to like a "user friendly", terrific sounding instrument and easy to use operating system.

Playing an arranger requires a different, but no less important, set of skills than it does to use a "workstation" and those who have honed these abilities to a fine edge, have benefited greatly from having an arranger under their fingers.

Ian

Yes, and just because you get paid to play, doesn't mean you are an advanced player.

Lots of players out there, with less than stellar skills, are making money, and not just on arranger instruments.

Ian

To me Pro refers to getting paid opposed to skill, all else is amateur...as in college vs pro sports..

Yep, there are lots of "amateur" arranger players out there with advanced playing skills that surpass many so called "pros".

Many of my clients are absolutely outstanding players, but earn no money from it...they play at home for their own enjoyment.

Just because you get paid, doesn't mean that you are an advanced player, although, by definition you are considered a "professional".

Ian