OK, I love this...He says its standard factory sounds.
Do al of you that have T4's agree, this is sandard sounds OOTB T4?

http://www.youtube.com/user/YAMATI40#p/u/19/YtJOVGn_UR8
Thanks for checking it for me.

Yep, definitely the factory sounds.

The sax is BreathySax(SA2)...one of my favorite sounds....man, it is so expressive.

He is also using another favorite sound, the guitar being JazzClean(SA)...simply excellent!

The strings sound like the RealStrings(SA) patch...nice and warm and rich.

I haven't had to tweak anything since I've set up the Tyros4 on my stand...it sounds beautifully balanced right out of the box.

Ian

Very beautiful.
DonM

Yep, and it's much better all round!!! I am simply amazed by this instrument and it's realism.. The drums and bass have improved out of sight also. The Audya has taken a back seat since the T4

OK, Thanks everybody...that answers my question.
That Sax is awesome!
Glad you like it Don. Yep, pretty beautiful song.

This illustrates exactly WHY any arranger I buy must have super sounds....it is because this is the kind of stuff I like to play.

Ian, Does the pan flute have those squeaky sounds when you play (occationally) like some demos show or is there one that does not do that?
Like this....no crazy crap happening.

The Pan Flute is well represented on the Tyros4, Lee, and all are without any odd artifacts (squeaky sounds?).

There is a Sweet!Pan Flute in the panel voices, and two more in the Legacy Folder, one being dubbed Ethnic Flute.

Plus you have your GM&XG and GM2 sounds as well.

Ian

OK, But what about the Pan Flute SA2? Seems like I heard a demo and those darn honking type sounds show up sometimes?
I will see if I can find it.

Hi Lee,

There are no SA2 Pan Flute voices...and there are no SA Pan Flute voices either.

There is a Sweet!Pan Flute and in the Legacy folder, a regular Pan Flute and Ethnic Flute.

Perhaps you are thinking of SA2 Irish Pipe Air and/or SA2 Irish Pipe Dance?

These are not Pan Flute voices.

Ian

Ian,
Yes...maybe your right it could be...
So anyways you are saying the Sweet pan flute is very nice..good enough.

If I find that demo...I'll post it here in this thread.

Lee the flute is the Sweet Flute, which is touch sensitive. When you hit it hard it squeaks--just like a real flute when blown too hard.

Gary

In other words you can easily emulate a BAD flute player!
Why would they do that?
DonM

Maybe they just want to sound like him...

That Sweet Flute "squeak" can be easily tuned down or out. I don't like it either.

Lee, if you did hear that squeak with a Pan Flute sound it was probably layered Sweet Flute with Pan Flute.

Yes, some jazzers like to overblow and get that sound. Not for me though for my uses. Kind of like hearing a guy breath in before he blows some of the horn sounds. I mean really, come on

Ha ha...they tell me the first guy they tried out for that breathing sample had asthma...

Yep, simply switch off the velocity switching or simply don't play that hard. I like the affect, there are some Jethro Tull flute parts that require it. This seems like a stupid topic of discussion. You could talk about any velocity switching voice like this. If you don't like it then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ... don't bother complaining.

Now that would be funny. I'd use that

Hey, is there a way to have the quotes larger left to right so you don't have to use the scroll thingy?

Gary,
AH, As I thought...ny experiene with the T2 was that it was very easy to 'Screw up' and it some notes a little too hard or soft. Too soft and the sound just did't play much, too hard and something I didn't like came out. So, the question is is the T4 the same or have big improvements been made in the programming to eliminate the 'Touchyness'???

Nigel,
Sorry, I think it's a good question for me as I have no idea how programmable the T4 is as far as sounds...I can tell you that the PA2 has FULL programmability of everything on the sound except the sample data itself, and that could be substututed.

I do not want to be stuck with some of those automatic nuances in some sounds. Yes, I realise learning the correct touch on SA & SA2 is important...but on the T2 I found it difficult.

Good answer!
DonM

There is a Premium Pan Flute Voice that was introduced for Tyros 3 that you can also buy for the Tyros 4.

joesax

That may be the one Lee is referring to, Joe. I don't have it, so, unfortunately, I can't comment to him on how "squeaky" it is, or if there are any odd responses to note play.

Ian

Ian:

I don't think that is BrathySax SA2. I use it all the time on my T3. This sounds more like Live Tenor Sax.

Here's a couple of my original works that use BreathySax SA2

Into the Night: http://www.box.net/shared/adnsji2zzc
It is in the last verse.

NightSky: http://www.box.net/shared/27gof6xvbr
Used throughout.

joe

Very nice original music, Joe, and a great impression of a Sax...Breathy Sax SA2 is my favorite too, although I'm really liking the Tyros4's Ballad Soprano SA2 for a different flavor.

Ian

Thanks, Ian.

Yes T4 has some great sounds. I especially like the new Orchestral Choirs for Soundtracks and the Horns. However I still can't justify an upgrade for the differences. In fact if I buy anything I think it will be a Motif, or a Kurzweil Workstation to compliment the T3.

joe

I didn't realize you COULD edit out the velocity switched layers in preset voices.

Tell me how this is done, please...

Joe,
Those 2 samples...exactly what I like..very well played.
Is the Sax you used sensitive to aftertouch as well as velocity?
If I want more bite after the initial note on...can I press harder to get it...while the note is playing?

ALso..Is there a heavy handed, barking Bari Sax (Think Tower of Power)? You know the one that shakes the walls!
Thanks

Diki, I'm unable to access layers with voice edit on my T 3. Those SA effects can pretty much be kept quiet by not depressing ART 1 or 2 buttons. Ian would probably know any tricks for this.
regards, chuck

But the velocity switched effects still come in whether you need them or not, right?

This is my major issue with them, to be honest. Most of them have NO musical connection between the effect and velocity. You can hammer-on a guitar very quietly, and you can play a single note loudly without a hammer-on. Or, a sax growl can be done quietly and a straight note as loud as you can... But, on those kinds of patches, you CAN'T.

I'd rather all those performance effects were tasked to footswitches than made velocity sensitive.

I'm not sure about the after-touch feature, but I believe it does respond to after-touch as well.

For that barking Baratone sax, they have a growl sax that is touch sensitive that sounds great when you're playing Honky Tonk Part II by Bill Doggett.

Gary

This has mostly to do with setting the touch sensitivity to the level that works best for what you're doing and your specific touch. But, you will have to see how the different effects respond to your touch and learn to work with what is there.

Lee:

Yes, The T3 has Aftertouch on its Keyboard for the voices that allow you to increase volume after the note has been sounded. The SA2 type effects are triggered by how you strike the keys (velocity sensitive) plus you can add other effects on startup notes and ending notes with the ART buttons. As a Tenor Sax player I find the velocity aspect of the keyboard similar to how I would play the sax so I am very satisfied with the results on the SA2 Sax voices and it was the main reason I bought the Tyros 3. Unfortunately T3 does not have a good Bari Sax or Alto Sax voice IMHO. But I do find the Soprano Sax voices very good on T3 even if they are not SA or SA2.

Joe

tyroschuck and Diki:

You can edit the Velocity Effects on Tyros:

The SA effects will still be present if you strike the keyboard in certain ways even if the ART buttons are off. If you want to eliminate them you need to select Voice Set and decrease the Depth and Offset parameters. If those are set low it will be difficult to trigger the effects even if you strike the keyboard hard on certain notes. Conversely if you increase these parameters you will trigger the effects very easily and often.

Joe

Thanks Joe...OK does the T4 have a killer Bari?
If not it would be a great user voice to add...
I went to a live performace of Tower of Power...wow!
When he hit that Bari...the room shook, I loved it.

But Joe, that's not removing them... that's just arbitrarily reducing the velocity sensitivity, so it's harder to get them, but you don't get back the full range of the sound in exchange...

Diki:

Yes, technically you are correct. I was showing how you can eliminate them from triggering. In my case the SA2 effects (velocity sensitive as they are)are what make the voices so real so I never try to eliminate them. Rather I increase the sensitivity. This allows me to emulate the Sax, Clarinet and guitar sounds quite accurately. So I'm not sure why you would want to eliminate them entirely since they add to realism. Of course Tyros gives you many non SA voices that do not have the effects such as Live Tenor Sax, etc which are also very good but IMHO not as real.

Joe

Joe, as I said earlier, things like hammer-ons, growls, and things like that, in real life, are independent of volume. But set up to be triggered by velocity, you ONLY get them on the loudest notes (and can't play loudly without them).

If they are tasked to a footswitch rather than velocity, you get to CHOOSE when they come in. And choice is a good thing, isn't it?

Diki:

You can do what you want by either just using a non-SA voice (which are quite good and removes all effects) or by reducing velocity to slightly below average on the SA voice and increasing the volume. However the whole point of the SA voice is the velocity controlled effects that add realism to the voice. You wouldn't select an SA2 SAX if you didn't want those velocity controlled sounds. You would pick a different sax voice. At least that's what I do. Also the kinds of SA effects associated with the sax are typically ones that would be louder when playing the real instrument. The feature you are suggesting, controlling the effects with a foot switch, would be interesting, but it's not something I believe a Tyros player would ever use as it would really just make the SA voice non-SA and IMHO you can already do that by just reducing velocity. In fact many of the voices out of the box are set to a slightly below average velocity making it difficult to trigger the effects. This was especially true on Acoustic Guitars. I had to increase velocity on all SA2 voices so I would be able to easily trigger them when needed.

Joe

The thing is, I DON'T want to lose those SA effects. I would just like them tasked to footswitches rather than velocity, so I can do hammer-ons at low velocity and straight notes at high, should I want to. I know there are voices without them on AT ALL, but that's not what I'm after (if I had one!)...

This is one area where at least Korg's comprehensive voice editing trumps the better (AFAIK) Yamaha samples. Yamaha give you NO (zero, nada, zilch) editing of SA2 voices whatsoever, at least as far as the effect triggers.

It is often stated that detail editing tends to intimidate the more casual user, and this is why Yamaha chose not to do it, but I think there is a solution. An option (in the 'Global' section) to HIDE the more advanced parameters from the casual user, and simplify the interface achieves this without penalizing the more advanced user.

I think Yamaha could easily pick up quite a few more customers by doing this, rather than forcing them to choose between preset simplicity and full editing by leaving the line altogether.

Diki:

I think you are right about Yamaha. While they do offer a lot of Voice and Style tweeking it is not to the detail level of Korg or Roland. Yamaha know their market and that feature, while of value to some, is not at the top of the enhancement list. Their basic MIDI implementation is in the same category.

Joe

Sadly, even Roland comes up WAY short in this area. Korg is far and away the leader at giving virtually WS level editing on arrangers. Mysteriously, it doesn't seem to put them out of business, and I would be unsurprised to find the large majority of users really don't USE that level of detail, but they still manage to sell quite well DESPITE this feature!

Something the other arranger manufacturers could learn from, I think!

As long as these parameters are tucked out of sight for the casual user, this could only improve sales for any arranger that implements it...

Well said Joe...the biggest disasters usually originate from trying to please everybody.

It's no big secret that Yamaha's voice tweaking (editing) isn't to the level of some (Korg, for instance)...but, it works perfectly well for their market. Their people are more interested in great sounding,extremely expressive and playable voices, and brilliant styles, and perhaps, to a lesser extent, extra voices, rather than detailed tweaking to the nth degree.

Having the basic sounds already to a superb level of refinement, and the control over them working, again, for the intended user, also means less tweaking is ever needed.

Yamaha and Korg have been co-existing in this segment for a long time...I can't see either company changing what already works just fine for both.

Ian

I think the SA nuances CAN be assigned to foot switch on Yamaha. I don't have one right now, but I remember even on the S900 that you could put in a guitar knock or similar things with your foot.
DonM

Correct, Don...SA Sax, for instance can have a breath noise and key noise assigned to pedals...SA Concert Guitar can have two types of body knocks.

SA2 Breathy Sax can use pedals for Bend Up/Down or Gliss Up/Down.

There are many other SA/SA2 pedal functions depending on the voice selected...too many to list here...for those interested, the online available manual gives lots of information.

Ian

Shooting for BOTH markets without intimidating the current one ought to be doable, Ian. Like I said, HIDE the complicated stuff, but leave it in.

BASIC mode, and EXPERT...

Thing is, the parameter hooks are already in there.. How do you think they program the voices in the first place..? All that many more advanced users would like is some way to access them. Even if it's an external computer editor, it's better than nothing!

But hide it away from the noobs... wouldn't want to scare anyone!

Doable Diki? Of course it is!

Gonna happen?

In my opinion, I don't think so.

But, anything is possible.

Ian

Intersting as Korg does exactly that...there is an 'EASY' mode selection on the main upper menu box..it hides some of the more complex choices when playing the instrument.

I suppose that might be considered a good idea...it also reinforces the point that the PA3X (and the PA2Xpro) are basically home units with some "pro" (or, perhaps a better word would be "advanced') features.

I'm dubious about the single finger chord option featured on these arrangers as being for "pro" (or "advanced") users...why is it included if these are "pro" instruments?

What "pro" (or "advanced") player would use one-finger chording?

Also, and again, in my opinion, if you have to have a reason to "hide" complex features, the basic ergonomics of the panel weren't that great to start with.

Ian