Hi guys.

I was going to do a write up on all this, but I think if you just watch this video it will explain things a lot better.

This is not a sample library this is modeling technology and therefore is a million times more expressive.
http://www.wallanderinstruments.com/?mode=support&lang=en

Bear in mind now that you DO NOT need a Breath Controller. It will work off the Wheels / joystick of your keyboard, or Expression Pedal, but to get the most you do need to use a breath controller.

Download the demo version and see for yourself.

Regards
James.

PS.. the Voilin I posted in that other thread is of East Wests PLAY engine.

Very impressive software !!!!

WiVi instruments are the ultimate proof that samples are slowly but surely getting obsolete. Gone are the days when 500GB hard disk and 2GB of RAM wasn't sufficient for running a full symphonic orchestra. Well, that's not entirely true yet, but it is true for brass and woodwinds. The rest of the instruments are still waiting to be released. ATM, I have the full WiVi brass and the flutes from the woodwinds.

(From a review at KVR)

WIVI will be developing their own String sections based on the same Technology, but there is an alternative right now called Synful which is also based entirely on Modeling Technology.

Synful also does Brass but I don't think their modeling technology is as good as WIVI.
http://www.synful.com/
http://www.synful.com/UserDemoSounds/Mayrand/Mayrand-Action.mp3


Personally, I'd be more interested in WIVI.

Regards
James

More Modelling Technology.

Pianoteq.
This puppy is hyper realistic and offers insane control over the piano and mic placments. It also emulates Rhodes, Bells and more... http://www.pianoteq.com

And one more, this one is called Brass and it's by arturia. http://www.arturia.com/evolution/en/products/brass/intro.html

Regards
James

James...very interesting...sounds very nice...but certaily not inexpensive.
Maybe when they get the whole thing done..they will offer a pkg of them all for a little less than indiviual.
Lee S.

Makes you wonder what ever happened to the pioneers of this technollogy that gave the world the VL-1

Pianoteq is really good news. You can start with the player version,at a very nice price, and add on and upgrade as the need arises. What worries me is the technical side of things. I have never used a keyboard with a PC, and expect trouble. I have a keyboard that can be connected to a PC, but what I would like is to permanently install the sounds on the keyboard, or use an external harddisk or pendrive. I am absolutely ignorant on these matters, so a little info would be appreciated.
casaet

Should have checked things a bit before asking stupid questions. Seems you need an audio interface box between the PC and the keyboard. That should make things easier to manage.
casaet.

Hi Casaet
To understand the basics of Midi, there is an excellent article here http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_get_started_with_midi.html

To assist in choosing a suitable audio card/interface for your computer, have a look at this article here http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interfaces_1.htm

If you wish to load your virtual instruments/samples directly onto your keyboard, then you will need one that has the computer built in, and currently only 3 are available that I am aware of.

1. Open Labs Neko
2. Lionstracs Groove/Media station
3. Wersi OAS instruments (OAS 3 -7)

All options have their Pros and Cons, so you will need to find which suits you best.

Hope this helps

Bill

Double Post

[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 10-12-2010).]

Thanks abacus.
My use of MIDI is very basic and simple, and it works, but it never hurts to learn more. I have already had a look at the article about audio interfaces, so now I am trying to find a unit that suits my simple needs. MIDI in, line out to amps, and computer connection. To get one of good quality I will probably get a lot more than I need, but I am used to that. The only thing I need is the audio interface to get started with Pianoteq. But I have enough gear to keep me happy, so no need to hurry.
casaet

wow!!! that's impressive! it really seems a groundbreaking product. And it sounds impressive,I own 3 Eastwest libraries so I should know. You are spot on, sample modelling is way better than samples. I've got the Eastwest simply because I didn't find anything that sounded better, but the libraries take ages to install and are cumbersome.

sample modelling is the best, and the Wallander instruments seems built to wipe out everything else.

the website is ridicolous, though....where are the demos? where is the information? I don't get it...this seems a great product

Two sound modules to throw into the pot.....

Muse Research - Receptor
SM Pro Audio - V Machine

Both however are not true open tech and require Wizard files to get the VSTi's running. The V-Machine is also limited in power and probably not suited to running Modelling technology but I said I'd just mention it anyway because these kind of devices are rare.

One to watch will be Lionstracs and their Rack Unit which is on the way. In my opinion this is going to blow the entire market wide open and will be hugely popular.

Regards
James

I have found this stupid review:
http://www.musicradar.com/gear/all/computers-software/virtual-instruments/wivi-v2-191837/review

I say stupid, because the 'reviewer' say that the sounds are passable! he whines about the price and the fact that 'using a breath controller require as much expertise as real players'.

What a stupid review....first off, I think the sound quality is amazing. The price reflects what is being bought. It's not too expensive for what it is. And the breath controller in conjuction with a keyboard seems a child's play. These guys aren't even willing to blow air into a breath controllers? Total wussies.....

My prediction is that this product will soon overshadow the best sample libraries available. Maybe not all of them (some sample libraries offer instruments that will not be found on any other product, like Eastwest's SILK, for example). But still....WIVI seems truly groundbreaking.

Yeah, he seems to contradict himself and totally miss the point at one stage.



I really think so too. It's a great product and it far exceeds the ability of a Sample Library in many ways. Being able to move the instruments on the stage and hear them change as if listening in the real world is amazing. It really give you total control over assembling your orchestra as sample libraries normal come with set instruments in specific configurations.

I hope to be able to splash out on the entire package myself soon. I've got to watch the pennys at the moment though with Christmas on the way.

Regards
James

Hi James,
thank you for all these great links.
Stuff I certainly wasn't aware of.
Pianoteq is something that certainly interests me, plus the basic version isn't terribly expensive.
Also like the Synful strings, but the price may not be worth it for what I do. I'm trying to spend my limited funds wisely haahaa.
Going to have fun downloading these demo's.
Interesting alternative to sample libraries.

Thanks so much.

best wishes
Rikki

Simple needs need simple solutions.

Sadly, while this product is groundbreaking (mind you, there was much that I felt was quite ho-hum, too) it is anything but simple to operate, set up a stable computer environment to run it, and interface it with an arranger or simple keyboard like that...

Diki, I'm shocked you don't appreciate this.
WIVI and Pianoteq are two of the most exciting developments in Modelling Technology ever. Go download the demo versions and take them for a spin.

I guarantee you that you will be blown away.



Seriously man, PC's give very little trouble these days. Vista was a great OS and Win7 is by far the best ever to leave Microsoft.

James.

I totally agree, James. Been a fan of Pianoteq since its' initial release, have been into modeling since the VL-1's and thereabouts.

But you always have to take into account, when posting at the SZ Arranger forum that YOUR idea of 'simple' and MANY of those here vary radically!

And also, for me, there's STILL a noticeable gap between the 'expressiveness' of modeling, and its' 'accuracy'. I realize that the amount of variation that you can get from modeling, vs sampling, is huge. But, as I felt that this demo showed, that at times, disregard the expressiveness, and sometimes straight-ahead sampling, if it does EXACTLY what you want it to do, is still a bit more accurate. As a horn player myself, I am torn... I want something to PLAY that gives me the widest range of tone and expression that can be got, and if the price I have to pay is it sometimes not QUITE sounding like the real thing, well, that's OK... But as a LISTENER, I have to sometimes sit up and go 'What was THAT?!' when I hear the model break down and miss the target a bit.

I stuck with the DX7 for YEARS after they were no longer popular, simply for the breath controller sounds. But, in the end, convenience and the improvement in sampled sax sounds made it no longer part of my live performance (still got it for the studio, though!). There's a lot I miss, but there's a lot I DON'T.

And that, for me as a horn player, is the still unresolved issue of modeled vs. sampled...

I still get the impression you think me a Luddite and a technophobe, but I simply consider myself more a realist. Especially here, as opposed to a VSTi forum, where it is obvious everybody has at least a GOOD working knowledge of computer based systems, I tend towards the cautious when using adjectives like 'easy' when dealing with something that is anything BUT to the less well initiated.

Well I did slap a “For Advanced Users” title on this thread in order to attract the type of people who would be interested in this, and there are many people here who are well able for all this too.

You got to admint, this is not complicated stuff Diki.

Pianoteq is played straight as you play a Piano. WIVI, again you play straight but use your breath, Wheel or Expression Pedal to control the dynamics. Preferably Breath as that's going to give you the most control over the expressions and dynamic range.

That's not rocket science by any stretch of the imagination. They are simply to operate programs that anyone would enjoy. Takes but a moment to get the most from WIVI and I really do mean that.



Compared to what, samples ?

If your not hearing the benefits of this over samples, please do download the demos. Mark my works, they will change your mind. We are looking at truly ground breaking software here.




Hmmm... I know samples have their place, they have after all shaped the world of music for 30 years, but I really feel WIVI and Pianoteq far exceed sample based sounds so much that it just so easy to hear and understand this.



You simply can't on any level compare FM Technology to PCM Technology. They sound nothing alike.



Again go download the demo and enjoy WIVI. It's a new way of modelling you have not hear before in other programs and to be fair, you really don't have a true understanding of how good it is just from that video.



Honestly I will tell you what I think.

I believe you are well able and are very knowledgeable, but you have gotten very lazy and are unwilling to work for what you want. You have the knowledge but lack the motivation.

That's a crying shame...!!!! It's like all the fun of music and technology has been sucked out of you at some point in the past when you used to at one point enjoy it all.

That's honestly how I feel and I don't like to say that when I know you could do a lot better at everything than you are doing right now. I say all this with respect.

Regards
James.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-13-2010).]

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-13-2010).]

Fair enough, James... Yep, I gotta admit, I'm looking a LOT more at speed and convenience when playing than the ultimate accuracy and detail. Guess that's part of growing older (or slower!)...

I am also tied (by familiarity, hardware, software and inertia!) to an older Mac computer that hasn't got the oomph to power these more modern VSTi's and stuff, so, in a way, I'm closer to many of our members here in that respect, and simply base many of my opinions on what I HEAR on these demos. And, as good as this stuff gets, simply LISTEN to the first part of that WIVI demo, and, I'm sorry, but it don't sound like no horn player I know...

In practice, it may be much better. But when simply LISTENING, I have to confess, much of that didn't do a damn thing for me. And I AM a horn player. it was my major and I still play forty years later. I think I got a right to have my own opinion on that issue...

Strictly as a keyboard player, I got to say the occasional 'Wow!'. But as a horn player, I'm afraid I got to give the occasional 'Sorry... better luck next time!'

Pianoteq has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years, however I still prefer Piannimisso http://www.acoustica.com/pianissimo/index.htm which as it combines sampling and modelling to my ears gives a more realistic sound.
Sound Modelling is the way forward however, and as I said a couple of years ago, within 10 years it will become the standard for producing sound, particularly as each new update appears to reduce the amount of CPU power required. (I was expecting a levelling of CPU power required, with the newer more powerful CPUs allowing more instruments to be produced simultaneously)
If I get the time I will download and try out WIVI this weekend to see how it goes.

Bill

What strikes me about Wivi is the amazing sound quality and the fact that you can play very expressively through the breath controller.

That's the way it should be done for all virtual instruments and libraries....small package, huge potential. I won't throw away my sample libraries ( I still think that nothing comes closes to Eastwest's Symphony Orchestra Gold, and everytime I hear back my music played back by these libraries, it blows my mind), but I know I am already interested in the Wivi products and I hope they will come up with a vast assortment of virtual instruments, I think these guys are the right ones for the job.

Way to go Wivi....but please make a better website with more info about the products.

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-14-2010).]

that's as generic as anything. Carts and horses were a simple solution too....

it all depends on what you need and what you are trying to do, and how much time and work you are willing to put in compared to the results...

understand, I hate PC's, Windows, and all that stuff, but I have used them for 9 years now and as much as I try to avoid doing everything music with them, there's certain things that I can do only on a PC...for example, I compose on my PSR. But once I have recorded the full arrangement (and compared on the PC,composing on the PSR feels like an happy task ,because of the simplicity), it's time to transfer that midi file into my PC and get out my sample libraries....so as for final sound , the PC does a monster job. So as a composer, to me Wivi seems a killer product. That breath controller adds tons of expressiveness compared to a static sound. Usually you have to use a mod wheel , which is a lot more limiting as well as harder to do. Blowing air is far easier than operating a wheel, and it frees both hands

)

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-14-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-14-2010).]

Maybe I'm just a bit underwhelmed because I've been using a breath controller since they first came out...?

I still use it on some VERY expressive patches for my K2500 (you can program some extraordinary things doing that) and am pretty familiar with how to use it and program it. Consequently, when I listen to a product that uses one, I am perhaps not coming from the same 'wow!' place that some of you might be, having not used one before...

And, sorry to say, but from that perspective, that first trumpet patch STILL very much left me wanting.

well, I tried the demo version,unfortunately I don't have a mod wheel on my master keyboard so I can't have a full impression of the product. The idea of using a breath controller to me is new, and the K2500 surely is an amazing instrument ( I had a K2000 many years ago and to me was like owning a spaceship )

the 'wow' is see in Wivi is the idea of being able to record, say, a tenor sax riff using a breath controller....the breath controller might not be a new idea, but to me is not that in itself that excites me, but the fact that I could be able to achieve various acoustic effects proper of the acoustic instruments (sax, trumpet etc), without using complicated keyswitching.

On the K2500, the most you can do is controlling bends or LFO effects and the like, with a breath controller, but the new idea on Wivi to me is controlling real sax effects, etc, using breath. I don't think it's the same thing, but that's just me. You seem to have owned a lot more great keyboards than I ever had, so yes my equipment experience is more limited.



[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-14-2010).]

Thanks Bill,
something else to try.

I downloaded Pianoteq, and I'm playing it via my Clavinova CLP170 piano's speakers.
This model was top of the line ( no arranger functions ) about 6 years ago, and at the time retailed for about $6,000 AUD.

I've always luved the piano sounds on my CLP170, but the Pianoteq, played thru the Clavinova, to my ears , sounds even better.
I only downloaded the basic version of the program.


Next I'm going to try Pianissimo.

best wishes
Rikk

after downloading the Wivi demo version, I have to say that the sound quality wasn't as good as I expected....it's very good but not amazing, so in a way I take back what I said about the review above.

For example, I have a sample library from Yellow Tools called 'Candy' , all brass, sax,etc, and though it's all samples, it's better than Wivi in terms of sound quality.

But Wivi is definitely worth keeping an eye on about future versions...after all, even the first Pianoteq version wasn't as good as the latest one, and that breath controller is too good an idea to pass up

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-15-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-15-2010).]

Bill, I agree with you..I still find Pianissimo to be great..

Sorry, Arranger (got a shorter name we can use? ) but you apparently have no idea how powerful the K2500 is. You can modulate ANYTHING with anything, and then use that to modulate something else! Including breath control.

It is the most flexible hardware synth I have ever used, and still to this day astonishes me by being able to do the most whacked out things I could ever ask it to...

as I said before, Kurzweil keyboards are not unknown to me. Even so, the sounds of the K2500 are not to be compared to what we are talking about here. These keyboards were some of the best in their heyday, but let me say that at that price ,a Kurzweil now would be at the bottom of my list.

You, on the other hand, have no idea how much more powerful is a library like Eastwest's Symphony Orchestra compared to the orchestral sounds on the K2500. My point is simply that Wivi offers a degree of playability that I have not heard about before on PC. You can talk about the K2500 as much as you want, but the fact is, we are talking about sample libraries and software, not hardware workstations. The K2500 is a great instrument, but certainly not the best and with that money I can buy better, a Liontracs is a case in point.

Frankly, even a Roland Juno G is a killer modern workstation and has more features than the K2500 , at about a fourth of the price or less. Does it have the breath controller? Don't know. What is important to me is not the breath controller per se, but the fact that ,as in the Wivi video, I can control a lot of real ACOUSTIC (not synthesized) nuances with a breath controller. On the K2500 ,what can you control? LFO, vibrato, filter cutoff?
Wow. Big deal.

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-21-2010).]

These days I wouldn't praise a Kurzweil for anything other than VAST and even at that it's getting old. You can't keep praising them for the same technology for every you know. As an OASYS user I'd have even less interest than most as the OASYS is a far deeper workstation that even the hard core programmers would find themselves left with their heads spinning.

VAST in my opinion is also a wasted technology on a range of keyboards that carry very dated specs and high price tags. The PCM data even sounds dated for many sounds and is likely very limited as they won't even tell you how much the keyboards have.

VAST is also not exactly utilised when producing real-world sounds. So... what's so interesting these days about a Kurzweil ?

A triple strike Piano sound ?

Well, there's plenty of better options these days in every accept of what Kurzweil have to offer. They don't really have a lot going for them.

Heck even the factory sounds on a Tyros 4 put any Kurzweil to utter shame. It's old technology.....yawn.

James

Sorry, James, but I built a pretty extensive library for my K2500... most of the TOTL Kurzweil and Akai libraries, including a lot of custom breath controller stuff, and have it tweaked to death! It still impresses most of my clients, and, in all fairness, was the basis of MANY, many hits from the nineties that still impress to this day (not that I played them, but the Kurzweil did...!).

You see, for me, it's NOT about having the latest greatest. It's about having something 'good enough' that I am intimately familiar with... That being said, I do agree that there are more sophisticated tools out there, and for pure synthesis, the old K2500 has long been surpassed. But the list of players WELL out of our leagues that still continue to play them is long and storied.

Hollywood scores were recorded on them. Countless hits were recorded on them. That's good enough for me.

If I need anything past its' capabilities, then I've got quite a few VSTi's for synth stuff (big fan of much of the Arturia stuff) or I can use Kontact, etc.. But my primary library was built in the nineties, was TOTL for its' time, and still satisfies most of my clients. Hollywood comes knocking (fat chance!) I'll run out and get the latest greatest... Until then, what I have does the job!

Hi Diki



Diki, it's only my opinion but I strongly believe that not even the official demo's on their website right now sound remotely close to what Yamaha are doing with the Tyros 4.

Bearing in mind that the Tyros 4 also has the most basic crud ass engine going, it still puts VAST to shame in the demo's I'm hearing. VAST is wasted because Kurzweil don't have anything much of good quality to feed through it and I bet the reason for that is PCM space is pretty much like the rest of their specs. Dated and low spec...!!!!



Sure, I personally don't believe any keyboard has a “use by date” that makes it obsolete after a certain amount of time but it is sad to see the state of the new keyboards they are releasing.

Kurzweil are sitting on one of the top sound engines and they can't make it produce anything current because things like the PCM data are very limited and the content is dated.

It's a crying shame. They just appear to lack money to develop the technology and seem to be hoping to sell new products based on the good old days.



Yes, in the 90's everyone was using them for soundtrack work but since then they have been hugely left behind. When a keyboard with a crap sound engine like the Tyros 4 clearly produces a better and far more realistic sound in my opinion, then that's a sad day for Kurzweil.

Really, how wrong is that when Kurzweil have one of the top sound engines. ..!!!!!



Just so you know, I'm not putting down your K2500. I'm just saying that Kurzweil have gone almost nowhere since the 90's. It's a great keyboard, but today current range are only slightly better and they still sound like something from the 90's.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-21-2010).]

Well, as I thought you would gather from my first line or so, I am NOT using much of the built-in sounds..! So, in a way, for me it's much like your old Akai S5000 (was that the one?). Only as good as the library you put into it.

I've got Siedlek, I've got Kirk Hunter, I've got many of the old TOTL orchestral libraries, and, even though they don't compare to perhaps the BEST of the current crop, few of my clients are so picky that the sound alone is the deciding factor... Just like arrangers, it still boils down mostly to the PLAYING and orchestration.

You posted some GREAT stuff you had done on the Akai a little while back... Are you ashamed of it? Of course not! Despite it being stone age compared to what you have now. Great music is mostly independent of the means of production. There are old Hollywood film scores done on old Emulators. They don't sound any WORSE than the day they were released.

I know full well that I could be using libraries and software that completely blow my old system away. But they would cost me THOUSANDS to get (VSL ain't cheap, you know!) and thousands more in hardware to run them, and would not get me another client more than I already have. If what I use is good enough for THEM, well, it's good enough for me!