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#291604 - 08/28/10 01:20 AM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
The question never WAS answered... Where ARE the virtuosi of the arranger?

Nowhere... (IMO)

Why would anyone capable of being called a virtuoso bother playing something that isn't primarily HIM playing? Even if he made his own styles, it's NOT him in control. No modern arranger makes MUSICAL decisions, only robotic, pre-programmed ones. No musician worth his salt wants to be recognized as the best 'button-pusher'. He wants what the audience hears to be recognizably HIM, and nothing else. Everything else dilutes the impact.

I am afraid we tend to concentrate on non-musical aspects of the arranger... Songbooks, MP3 players, video output, rubbish like that. I honestly can hardly think of a single feature added to an arranger in the last few years that made it more MUSICAL. I still cringe when I hear the utter destroying of musical basslines by the arranger's inability to wrap notes intelligently, or the jackrabbit jumping around of chords, rather than smooth voice leading.

Musicians are SO, so much better than arrangers, in just about every way. It is no wonder that no one worthy of his salt will use one for anything other than crass commercial reasons. We sit around here and post URL after URL of amazing MUSICIANS, and gasp in wonder. But what we REALLY need to do is ask ourselves why we are playing arrangers that never get even a MILE close to what these people can do, and why we are so satisfied with them, anyway...

They suck!

Me, I want an arranger that has a heart, an arranger that is MUSICAL, that spends less time on features for people that CAN'T play, and has more of them for people that CAN. I want an arranger that does what GREAT players do, and not what very average robots do...

I believe that the technology already exists capable of doing this. But, unfortunately, the majority of the market for arrangers wouldn't recognize correct voice leading if it bit them on the behind! But they SURE know a good karaoke readout when they see one!

Maybe, one day, if the manufacturers concentrate on making features that help REAL musicians, rather than bedroom jockeys and one-finger noodlers, we may FINALLY see someone who IS a virtuoso choose to play an arranger.

But not until...

(BTW... long enough for you, Donny?:0 )

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#291605 - 08/28/10 03:40 AM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Diki is slowly coming back.


Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:


...Me, I want an arranger that has a heart, an arranger that is MUSICAL, that spends less time on features for people that CAN'T play, and has more of them for people that CAN. I want an arranger that does what GREAT players do, and not what very average robots do...



That would be the much debated PRO arranger. Maybe it will happen sometime.

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#291606 - 08/28/10 06:13 AM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1232
Loc: United Kingdom
You really dont know much about creativity at all Diki. Its not the instrument, its the limitation in terms of imagination and creativity of the player that is stalling arranger keyboards from being used as the go to keyboard instrument instead of the hobbyists instrument that it is currently.

If any musician spent 6-8 hours a day on any instrument including an arranger i know they would come up with inovative ways of using it that would blow your socks off. But unfortunately the arranger has been pigeon holed into purely a one man band instrument (which is certainly not its sole purpose) or a hobbyists instrument which again the top of the range arrangers are much more than that. All it needs is someone to genuinely get under the hood and discover how its unique features could be utilised in moden music. But it wont happen anytrime soon because the people that own arrangers change them everytime a new one comes out every 2-3 years never appreciating what they had or fully understanding what could have been done with their existing keyboard.

we dont need anymore bangs and whistle on our arrangers. We just ned to know how to use the arsenal we already have appropriately

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#291607 - 08/28/10 06:46 AM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4888
Loc: English Riviera, UK
While I agree that itís the player that makes the biggest difference, different instruments are made for different users, and the Arranger keyboard has ALWAYS without EXCEPTION, been designed for the Home Hobby Player NOT the Professional Player, therefore they will always keep having features incorporated to make the home player sound great with minimal effort.
Remember a lot of Hobby players already have a day job, or are retired and want to do things they couldnít do when they were working, consequently they do not have time to practice as a Professional would.
So if youíre waiting for features suitable for a Professional to be incorporated into an Arranger keyboard, then you will have a very, very, very long wait, as you are a miniscule part of the Arranger market.
You may not like it, but thatís the facts.
So Just Enjoy Whatever You Play

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (IÔŅĹm definitely staying put).

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#291608 - 08/28/10 08:52 AM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40463
Quote:
Originally posted by trident:
Diki is slowly coming back.
.


Vacation Over!!

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#291609 - 08/28/10 09:41 AM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40463
http://www.surflight.org/concerts.htm

Tommy Emanuel in concert on the Jersey shore in a few weeks!

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#291610 - 08/28/10 03:33 PM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
spalding1968 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1232
Loc: United Kingdom
this guy is just off the charts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hb7DYgcwSo

The reason why arranger players struggle to get to this level of creativity is because they are always looking for the next technological break through in keyboards rather than just loving making music and developing their skills to make even greater music. this guy loves making music and it is clear that he gets a greater kick out of the music than even his audiebce.

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#291611 - 08/28/10 05:07 PM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
Taike Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2665
Loc: Taiwan-Laos-China
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding1968:
this guy is just off the charts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hb7DYgcwSo

The reason why arranger players struggle to get to this level of creativity is because they are always looking for the next technological break through in keyboards rather than just loving making music and developing their skills to make even greater music. this guy loves making music and it is clear that he gets a greater kick out of the music than even his audiebce.


Right on, Spalding. No matter what most may post here, it seems they're more into new gear than into making music. They'll start debating the Tyros 5 as soon as the T4 is out. Well, first the forum goes into a slump till they hear a new board is coming out. Then speculation season starts.

As for me, I am not a technically inclined person so all these new gadgets don't mean much to me. I prefer to hit the ON-button and just play. Are no SA voices or whatever they're called elsewhere going to turn me into a better player.

To me an arranger is a make-believe instrument. It may sound great to a number of people but will never compare to the real instruments it's trying to emulate. Neither will it impress a guitar player, trumpet player, drummer, etc. The complexities of a guitar, trumpet, violin, etc. can and never will be emulated on a keyboard. It's simply impossible. So far the B3 has never been really successfully cloned and shouldn't that be easier than a guitar, trumpet or violin? So it all comes down to make-believe. Close to some ears but light years away from the real thing. There'll never be a philharmonic arranger keyboard orchestra.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.
_________________________
Those that cry "freedom" often are the oppressors.

Science can't explain everything, but religion can't explain anything.

Those that are free don't have the need to mention it about every 5 minutes.

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#291612 - 08/28/10 07:16 PM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14442
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
NO INSTRUMENT HAS HEART! It's the player that has heart, and I really don't give a damned what he or she plays, just as long as they pour their heart and soul into each and every song they perform. It can be an arranger keyboard, guitar, mandolin, violin, piano, you name it--it really doesn't make a damned bit of difference what instrument he or she plays. I've heard some incredible players in my life, many of which have been trained by the best institutions of music. Some performers are incredible readers, they can play any song from sheet music, and it is flawless. I've heard others that cannot read a note, play the same song using their instrument of choice, including an arranger keyboard, and produce a masterpiece that opens your soul and brings tears to your eyes. As stated many times in the past--IT'S THE PLAYER--NOT THE INSTRUMENT!

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, Bose L1 Compact, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#291613 - 08/28/10 08:25 PM Re: Check out this amazing guitar player (Igor Presnyakov)
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40463
Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
NO INSTRUMENT HAS HEART! It's the player that has heart, and I really don't give a damned what he or she plays, just as long as they pour their heart and soul into each and every song they perform. It can be an arranger keyboard, guitar, mandolin, violin, piano, you name it--it really doesn't make a damned bit of difference what instrument he or she plays. I've heard some incredible players in my life, many of which have been trained by the best institutions of music. Some performers are incredible readers, they can play any song from sheet music, and it is flawless. I've heard others that cannot read a note, play the same song using their instrument of choice, including an arranger keyboard, and produce a masterpiece that opens your soul and brings tears to your eyes. As stated many times in the past--IT'S THE PLAYER--NOT THE INSTRUMENT!

Gary


Great Post Gary and so true!

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