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#289050 - 06/12/10 03:19 PM arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
hey all....just got a fantastic PSR-3000.
This keyboard exceeded all my expectations.

I still remember a couple of years ago when I was frustrated with making music on PC and wanting an arranger to write music on. My idea was to abandon the approach of writing music directly on the computer, because I would always getting problems for a reason or another from the software, etc (and I have used computers for 10 years, so I am no newcomer)

I have used (and still use) ,other than the standard boring Cubase stuff, Band In a Box with all the Realtracks, plus Kontakt and three killer libraries from Eastwest.

But I was so sick of computer technical problems and also complexity. Since I started to use hardware arrangers.....wow, what a change. WOW !
I bought and tried a few older keyboard because in my mind spending so much money for an arranger would not make sense ....I would still fall into the trap of thinking 'well, with that money I can buy that great sounding library'. What a mistake, and what I missed by making that mistake.

So I took the plunge and got an used PSR-3000 from Whitley Bay Organs.... I choose to buy from them after reading good stuff about this shop on these forums, and I am glad I did. They sent me a PSR-3000 for 499 in lovely condition. I love this keyboard, it's so easy to build great arrangements with, it's fullfilling all my musical activities...the flash key is a blast, I previously bought a PSR-1000 to save a bit of money over the 3000, and was working my ass off to transfer my midi files from the PC to the floppy.

Wow, that flash key on the 3000 made me realize what an idiot I had been, I should have bought this keyboard before. Now I have a little key with my whole midi library with thousands of soundtracks and songs, and for those songs who are available only as audio, I just connect my MP3 player in the Line in and jam away.
I thought it was only good for singing, but no, it even doubles as a line-in , perfect!

What all this means? It means that I can turn off the PC entirely and don't even need it for playing any music files at all, which is great as I end up focusing on the music for hours without checking my email every 25 minutes!!

The chord recognition on the Yamahas is the best I have seen, as well as the ability to write anything in real time and step time. I am very fussy about exact harmony progressions. Also great sequencer to me is essential....I have tried some other makes but in my opinion Yamaha is the best for that....I did try some nice GEM keyboards and it was very difficult to write exact progressions with all the inversions I wanted, etc....but Yamaha really kicks ass in that department, plus the PSR-3000 is really an excellent well-round workstation, I love this simplicity and efficiency....

with the bloody PC software, before you set in punch in and out points for overdubs you have to go through 15 steps. By the time you get there, you even forget what you were trying to do (and it happened many times to me!) On the Yamaha it automatically records and overwrite the previous part as soon as I hit the first key. Or you can just press a pedal for the ins and outs, no need to enter horrid numeric values. Not even Cubase has the super-efficient little things as on an arranger !!

I am not throwing away the PC stuff, my idea is to write the music with my arranger from start to end, then export as a midi file and replace the sounds with the libraries I have.

But for writing music, forget it. I'll never look back again.....the arranger is a real instruments made for musicians, the PC stuff gives you the illusion of mind-blowing potential but if you think about all the time you have to invest in it to make things work, you'll grow old....and it'll never work in exactly the way you want.

Take Band In a Box. Great program, sure. And the Realtracks sounds killer. But oh, how I hated it when I was writing the chords for a track and all of a sudden the software would include an augmented fifth or an augmented fourth in my progression. These notes require a particular way to handle them, and yet I could not get rid of them, even after trying all options, or I had to change style to make the progression less full of things I never wrote !! In the meantime, hours would pass by, without writing any music, only trying to make things work.

Another example where the arranger scores and the PC doesn't, even with expensive software: I have spent good money on a piano library from Eastwes. Great quality and sound, no doubts, except for one problem: the dynamics SUCK. Even with an hammer-action master keyboard, I can only get a very narrow dynamic range, like a bit more piano than mezzoforte and a bit more forte.

Where's pianissimo and fortissimo ? That one REALLY sucked, I would bang on the keyboard really hard trying to get a 'forte' in the choruses, to no avail.

Believe it or not,I like the piano sound in the PSR-3000 ! It has a nice dynamic range and sounds sweet! It's no 20 gb piano sounds, but I don't care, it plays better!

Plus, a good hardware arranger, for intros and endings, blows any software out of the way. I have spent hours just studying the great sounding intros on these arrangers. One man Band plays Yamaha styles so the intros etc are there, but it's very hard to find a soft GM module for it that sounds as good as an hardware arranger.
Well, there's the Ketron SD1, but I was still getting other problems.

An hardware arranger is the best. The apparent higher cost will more than pay off in the long run. I write more music with the arranger in a week than I did with all the stuff I have on the PC, in 5 months.
I can really focus on the music and just turn off the computer entirely, I remain immersed in the writing process without even missing the sampling libraries that I have and even forgetting to check my email (good thing!)

Just in case anybody is thinking to 'replace' a real arranger with PC stuff....don't do it. Maybe you want to use both, but don't fall in the illusion that a PC , with all it's 'possibilities' can substitude a real instrument. I have seen time and time again that it can't.

Anyways, sorry about the rambling...I just am so happy with my PSR-3000


[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

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#289051 - 06/12/10 03:54 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10579
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I use the arranger (a PSR-S910) for all my recording, using the PC just for burning the CD or converting the Wav to MP3.

I find having the styles and even the One Touch settings invaluable for getting down ideas quickly and painlessly.

I don't use any software recording programs, and prefer to do without them.

Congratulations on your PSR-3000...I had one, and it is a terrific instrument.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#289052 - 06/12/10 03:56 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4720
Loc: English Riviera, UK
If you want to use your computer as an arranger you need arranger software, not Cubase or other sequencing software.
http://www.varranger.fr/
http://www.live-styler.de/home/
http://www.livearranger.com/

Then you can set up your master keyboard to operate like an arranger.

Not sure why you cant get the full dynamics on your master keyboard and piano samples, as I have found the default settings to work pretty much spot on. (You must have changed some setting without realising it)

If your using your computer for composing, set it up for music and not anything else (Set up different user accounts and use fast switching if you want use other things, just remember not to do it at the same time)

If you want full integration with everything both arranger software and computer software have to offer, then go for an open keyboard that is specifically designed for the job, Such as;
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/groove-x7-red-p-251.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAwYfXRv0c&feature=player_embedded

Hope this helps

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#289053 - 06/12/10 09:06 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 37700
Loc: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by arranger_yes_pc_no:
hey all....just got a fantastic PSR-3000.
This keyboard exceeded all my expectations.

I still remember a couple of years ago when I was frustrated with making music on PC and wanting an arranger to write music on. My idea was to abandon the approach of writing music directly on the computer, because I would always getting problems for a reason or another from the software, etc (and I have used computers for 10 years, so I am no newcomer)

I have used (and still use) ,other than the standard boring Cubase stuff, Band In a Box with all the Realtracks, plus Kontakt and three killer libraries from Eastwest.

But I was so sick of computer technical problems and also complexity. Since I started to use hardware arrangers.....wow, what a change. WOW !
I bought and tried a few older keyboard because in my mind spending so much money for an arranger would not make sense ....I would still fall into the trap of thinking 'well, with that money I can buy that great sounding library'. What a mistake, and what I missed by making that mistake.

So I took the plunge and got an used PSR-3000 from Whitley Bay Organs.... I choose to buy from them after reading good stuff about this shop on these forums, and I am glad I did. They sent me a PSR-3000 for 499 in lovely condition. I love this keyboard, it's so easy to build great arrangements with, it's fullfilling all my musical activities...the flash key is a blast, I previously bought a PSR-1000 to save a bit of money over the 3000, and was working my ass off to transfer my midi files from the PC to the floppy.

Wow, that flash key on the 3000 made me realize what an idiot I had been, I should have bought this keyboard before. Now I have a little key with my whole midi library with thousands of soundtracks and songs, and for those songs who are available only as audio, I just connect my MP3 player in the Line in and jam away.
I thought it was only good for singing, but no, it even doubles as a line-in , perfect!

What all this means? It means that I can turn off the PC entirely and don't even need it for playing any music files at all, which is great as I end up focusing on the music for hours without checking my email every 25 minutes!!

The chord recognition on the Yamahas is the best I have seen, as well as the ability to write anything in real time and step time. I am very fussy about exact harmony progressions. Also great sequencer to me is essential....I have tried some other makes but in my opinion Yamaha is the best for that....I did try some nice GEM keyboards and it was very difficult to write exact progressions with all the inversions I wanted, etc....but Yamaha really kicks ass in that department, plus the PSR-3000 is really an excellent well-round workstation, I love this simplicity and efficiency....

with the bloody PC software, before you set in punch in and out points for overdubs you have to go through 15 steps. By the time you get there, you even forget what you were trying to do (and it happened many times to me!) On the Yamaha it automatically records and overwrite the previous part as soon as I hit the first key. Or you can just press a pedal for the ins and outs, no need to enter horrid numeric values. Not even Cubase has the super-efficient little things as on an arranger !!

I am not throwing away the PC stuff, my idea is to write the music with my arranger from start to end, then export as a midi file and replace the sounds with the libraries I have.

But for writing music, forget it. I'll never look back again.....the arranger is a real instruments made for musicians, the PC stuff gives you the illusion of mind-blowing potential but if you think about all the time you have to invest in it to make things work, you'll grow old....and it'll never work in exactly the way you want.

Take Band In a Box. Great program, sure. And the Realtracks sounds killer. But oh, how I hated it when I was writing the chords for a track and all of a sudden the software would include an augmented fifth or an augmented fourth in my progression. These notes require a particular way to handle them, and yet I could not get rid of them, even after trying all options, or I had to change style to make the progression less full of things I never wrote !! In the meantime, hours would pass by, without writing any music, only trying to make things work.

Another example where the arranger scores and the PC doesn't, even with expensive software: I have spent good money on a piano library from Eastwes. Great quality and sound, no doubts, except for one problem: the dynamics SUCK. Even with an hammer-action master keyboard, I can only get a very narrow dynamic range, like a bit more piano than mezzoforte and a bit more forte.

Where's pianissimo and fortissimo ? That one REALLY sucked, I would bang on the keyboard really hard trying to get a 'forte' in the choruses, to no avail.

Believe it or not,I like the piano sound in the PSR-3000 ! It has a nice dynamic range and sounds sweet! It's no 20 gb piano sounds, but I don't care, it plays better!

Plus, a good hardware arranger, for intros and endings, blows any software out of the way. I have spent hours just studying the great sounding intros on these arrangers. One man Band plays Yamaha styles so the intros etc are there, but it's very hard to find a soft GM module for it that sounds as good as an hardware arranger.
Well, there's the Ketron SD1, but I was still getting other problems.

An hardware arranger is the best. The apparent higher cost will more than pay off in the long run. I write more music with the arranger in a week than I did with all the stuff I have on the PC, in 5 months.
I can really focus on the music and just turn off the computer entirely, I remain immersed in the writing process without even missing the sampling libraries that I have and even forgetting to check my email (good thing!)

Just in case anybody is thinking to 'replace' a real arranger with PC stuff....don't do it. Maybe you want to use both, but don't fall in the illusion that a PC , with all it's 'possibilities' can substitude a real instrument. I have seen time and time again that it can't.

Anyways, sorry about the rambling...I just am so happy with my PSR-3000


[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-12-2010).]


all I know is that Diki has some writing competition

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#289054 - 06/12/10 10:44 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6262
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
all I know is that Diki has some writing competition



Nah, I think its just Diki that made a new account to try and prove the same old things from a different viewpoint..

There is just to many flaws in this story to give it any serious consideration..


But then for some/most people that have a hard way to comprehend the new technollogy closed keyboards are just the way to go, and they will be very happy with them in the end.
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, korg Kronos 88, Ipad, Mac-mini, Mainstage3, Komplete Ultimate12, Omnisphere2.5, Keyscape, Trilian, Serum, pianoteq5, Ivory2, Blue2, Zebra2, Diva, Hive, V/collection, Synthmaster2.9, Halion 6, Superior drummer.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#289055 - 06/12/10 11:30 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10579
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:

But then for some/most people that have a hard way to comprehend the new technollogy closed keyboards are just the way to go, and they will be very happy with them in the end.


Either that, or they're smart enough not to need the so called "new technology" in the first place.

All we've seen on SZ is people making "open arrangers" behave like closed ones.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#289056 - 06/12/10 11:39 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10579
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
all I know is that Diki has some writing competition



Would that be in sheer volome, or in content?
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#289057 - 06/12/10 11:41 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
If you are using high end East West and Kontakt samples and think the PSR-3000 sounds are anywhere near the same quality, you seriously need to have your studio monitors or your hearing checked.

Any issues you are having with dynamics has to be an error in the setting of your system as the East West Piano samples are multi layered with more velocity cross fades and dynamic range than those on your PSR-3000. There's a reason they use 20-40GB for a single sound, it's called multiple layers, multiple velocity switching, longer samples, and more samples per sound.

There isn't a "closed" keyboard made that can compete with the best VST sounds available, its just not possible with the limited RAM and CPU power that closed keyboards utilize. I don't care how well you sample 128, 256, or even 512 MB of sounds and edit them, when a single sound on a high end VST uses 10, 20, 30GB or more and has nearly every key of the instrument sample mapped, its bound to be leaps ahead of your closed system.

Computers can be problematic and I agree that using an all in one system can be much better. The key is to find an all in one system that has great sounds, tons of features, expansion capability, lots of polyphony, is intuitive, and is built very well. For me that was a Wersi Abacus. For you it seems to be a PSR-3000 which is baffling to many I am sure.

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#289058 - 06/13/10 01:55 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10579
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
There's no argument against "open" arrangers having more powerful sounds available, but as far as playing styles, they aren't any better than a closed system...at least from what has been shown so far.

Not everyone requires sounds at the level of VST's...many of us are quite happy with the excellent on-board voices supplied with the instrument.

I believe the OP has decided he prefers the all-in-one approach...if it works "better" for his needs, then it is, in his case, "better".

I don't need/want to use software recording, and I prefer doing mine on the arranger...it's editing functions are perfect for my purposes, and the streamlined method of it's recording features allow much better capturing of ideas while they are still fresh.

The sounds are more than acceptable on today's MOTL arrangers, easily rivalling TOTL instruments, and just one of the many reasons why so many pros are using them.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#289059 - 06/13/10 02:47 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6262
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Either that, or they're smart enough not to need the so called "new technology" in the first place.

All we've seen on SZ is people making "open arrangers" behave like closed ones.

Ian





The strong selling point of open workstations/arrangers is for people that make their own music and own arrangements.

Still Lionstracs instruments are far from open.... as all buttons are tightly knit to the lionstracs interface. This allows for easy access and easy operation..

I think Lionstracs is the perfect mix between an open system and a closed arranger.. because live-arranger works pretty much like a closed arranger.. which also needs a standard soundset, because otherways it will be very hard to create content for these instruments...

Open-labs systems are much more open then Lionstracs... because of their freely programmable interface and knobs..

But the Liomnstracs almost offers all features without most of the downfalls as written about by Diki under his new account.
To be accessible there needs to be standards, Lionstracs is way less open then a PC, and exactly that adds possibillities for the community as there is a standard.
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, korg Kronos 88, Ipad, Mac-mini, Mainstage3, Komplete Ultimate12, Omnisphere2.5, Keyscape, Trilian, Serum, pianoteq5, Ivory2, Blue2, Zebra2, Diva, Hive, V/collection, Synthmaster2.9, Halion 6, Superior drummer.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#289060 - 06/13/10 03:38 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6098
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by arranger_yes_pc_no:
hey all....just got a fantastic PSR-3000.
This keyboard exceeded all my expectations.

I still remember a couple of years ago when I was frustrated with making music on PC and wanting an arranger to write music on.


I know exactly what you mean. I am a software engineer for 25 years now and am totally comfortable with computers. However when it comes to making music I find that computer issues simply get in the way. Sure I admit computers can offer more options ... but I really don't care to invest that sort of time or effort. I much prefer to have a closed system that simply works so I can ignore the technical issues and just get down to playing music. I am quite happy to sacrifice some options if I can just start playing music with being distracted by technical issues.

My entire work life revolves around solving software problems. So that absolutely is the last thing I want to do when I am away from work in a creative mood.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-13-2010).]

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#289061 - 06/14/10 07:51 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
abacus , been there, done that. I have used Band in a Box and One Man Band for years. Band in a Box I have used more, because I don't need a lot of realtime stuff.

As for Live Styler, my God. I uninstalled it after 10 minutes, hated all the numerical values I had to enter and it's complexity.

I'll use the PC only to substitute the sounds after the music has been fully written on the hardware.

Integration? No thanks...it never really worked the way I want, and it never will.

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#289062 - 06/14/10 07:54 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:
Nah, I think its just Diki that made a new account to try and prove the same old things from a different viewpoint..

There is just to many flaws in this story to give it any serious consideration..



so, you read a post and you think it's your friend Dik who's trying to tell you some 'old things from a different viewpoint'. Then , because of this, you conclude that it's a story not worth of your consideration.

I suggest you take up therapy, my friend.

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#289063 - 06/14/10 07:57 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel:
I know exactly what you mean. I am a software engineer for 25 years now and am totally comfortable with computers. However when it comes to making music I find that computer issues simply get in the way. Sure I admit computers can offer more options ... but I really don't care to invest that sort of time or effort. I much prefer to have a closed system that simply works so I can ignore the technical issues and just get down to playing music. I am quite happy to sacrifice some options if I can just start playing music with being distracted by technical issues.

My entire work life revolves around solving software problems. So that absolutely is the last thing I want to do when I am away from work in a creative mood.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-13-2010).]


thanks Nigel,I really valued your opinion. It describes exactly my point. Less options at times can work a LOT better.



[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-14-2010).]

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#289064 - 06/14/10 07:59 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensnareyou:
If you are using high end East West and Kontakt samples and think the PSR-3000 sounds are anywhere near the same quality, you seriously need to have your studio monitors or your hearing checked.


That's not what I have said. At all. You seriously need to get your sight checked. and /or your brains. Probably both, though.

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#289065 - 06/14/10 08:06 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:

I have found the default settings to work pretty much spot on. (You must have changed some setting without realising it)

Bill[/B]


default settings of what, Bill? Do you use Eastwest pianos too?
The piano sound I am talking about, has nothing to do with settings....it has a ridicolously narrow dynamic range. I have tried every settings you can imagine.

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#289066 - 06/14/10 11:23 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4720
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi
Go to http://purgatorycreek.com/ and click on the Digital Piano Shoot out, there you will find the dynamic range of East West Piano samples are as good if not better than the others.
The ones I have tried (True Pianos, NI, Pianissimo, Pianoteq) have worked pretty much spot on straight out the box, and with the quality samples that East West produce, I find it difficult to believe they would get their piano samples wrong.

Livestyler
Sounds like you were using a very early version which always was a pain in the backside, however its now much better, (V11) so have another look, and also make sure you have a look at the others I posted as well.

Integration
Try any of the computer based keyboards, and you will find you can select the Top sound samples as easily as the internal voices on your Yamaha. (This includes main and style sounds)
Regards

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#289067 - 06/14/10 11:43 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
I agree with Bill.

I have used a software based arranger system for many, many, many, many years and then some!!!!

Thank you

Frank

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#289068 - 06/14/10 11:58 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6262
Quote:
Originally posted by arranger_yes_pc_no:
so, you read a post and you think it's your friend Dik who's trying to tell you some 'old things from a different viewpoint'. Then , because of this, you conclude that it's a story not worth of your consideration.

I suggest you take up therapy, my friend.



Maybe you should talk to my therapeut
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, korg Kronos 88, Ipad, Mac-mini, Mainstage3, Komplete Ultimate12, Omnisphere2.5, Keyscape, Trilian, Serum, pianoteq5, Ivory2, Blue2, Zebra2, Diva, Hive, V/collection, Synthmaster2.9, Halion 6, Superior drummer.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#289069 - 06/15/10 07:48 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
So what we are saying here is, if anyone posts a cogent, well articulated and detailed post about anything, it MUST come from me?

You flatter me... (even if you didn't intend to..!)

I think the point the OP is making is the INSTANT nature of arrangers. That's why we all like them so much. WS's, even long before open keyboards, have been able to make MUCH better sounding final products than arrangers do. BUT... it takes a LONG, long time, comparatively. Not all of us have that time to spare, not all of us have the skills even if we HAD the time, not all of us need the improvement that time would make over our arrangers...

There's a REASON we are all here on an arranger forum. And, as much as the open keyboard love their keyboards, when push comes to shove, pretty much ALL of them have conventional arrangers, too. And, if the truth be known, actually use these live a lot more than their open keyboards.

There's room in music for BOTH types of keyboards. My disagreement with the open community mostly comes from their hyperbole of not NEEDING closed keyboards any longer, all evidence to the contrary. It's painfully obvious that the open community does not have a TOTL arranger, yet. And that closed keyboards do not have the sound and flexibility of the open ones. But there are different times when you need these different tools. Neither can replace the other.

I use arrangers for live playing. I also use arrangers as sketch pads for studio work. But then I complete these projects with VSTi's, and WS's in addition to what sounds from my arranger survive (sometimes it's none, sometimes it's quite a few). To do the job properly, you need to use EVERYTHING. I still believe (and so far, all evidence seems to show it) that open keyboards do not yet do the jobs of their closed counterparts as well, as easily, and as quickly. They do the jobs that they are best at better than closed keyboards. But there is no outright winner, yet.

And, trust me, the day that software alone CAN do the job as well, as easily and as quickly as what I currently use, I will be buying and using it. Until then....

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#289070 - 06/15/10 07:56 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2141
Loc: Columbia City, IN USA
If your not into or up to the task of heavy integration and customization almost like programming then closed is the way to go.
Some of us do have those skills and desires...so we like the open systems, at least somewhat.

The thing is..I can handle the integration...but, Im not musically talented enough to deveop all the performaces I want (styles are available, but need lots of re-voicing in some cases).

Anyway, I don't think I have enough time left to do all that and develop better playing skills. So, at this time...I choose to work on my music skills.

Lee S.
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Lee S.

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#289071 - 06/15/10 08:18 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
For all the invective from the open fans, I AM a big user of open systems But simply put, I use computer based open systems for when I use them in the studio, and closed for when I perform live and need to do stuff quickly. Until the open keyboard does the quick stuff as well as it does the slow, I don't NEED two different keyboards. One for live, and software on a computer for studio works well, is inexpensive, and covers all the bases.

When things change, I'll revisit the question. But it's obvious from the lack of anything live from the open boys (or the poor quality of what little IS posted) that the reality does not match the hyperbole, yet. Technology moves pretty quickly, on the whole. But we've been waiting YEARS for the reality of open keyboards to match it's potential. Still waiting...

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#289072 - 06/21/10 07:36 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1053
Loc: FRANCE
I am the creator of the vArranger software.

Mixing the best of the 2 worlds is a good solution :

vArranger software + Ketron SD2 sound module.

Gives you a perfect, ready to play, professional solution.

Dan
http://www.varranger.com
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#289073 - 06/21/10 01:07 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by DAN.2000:
I am the creator of the vArranger software.

Mixing the best of the 2 worlds is a good solution :

vArranger software + Ketron SD2 sound module.

Gives you a perfect, ready to play, professional solution.

Dan
http://www.varranger.com


Way too expensive in my view, especially when coupled with the SD2... Especially out here! (in Oz that is )

And for all that money, its still not as good as the closed arranger which can be purchased for the same amount. No PC needed

No offence meant, just some observations.

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#289074 - 06/22/10 06:06 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1053
Loc: FRANCE
What is that cheaper keyboard you are talking about?

Here we get the sound quality of the Ketron SD5 who is like 3 times more expensive.

Of course, even if the sounds are the sames, we cannot compare hardware arrangers and software arrangers.

It's really 2 options.

Hardware is more stable, and more cable free than softwares (even if I gig today with vArranger without any problems, and install all in 5 minutes)

Today, half of my gigs are done with my old but good Ketron SD1, and half with vArranger.

vArranger is not only a good and stable arranger, but also a very nice tool to create new sounds (layered) very easily, with a nice graphical interface.

I will post soon some demos of my new Ketron SD2 sounds (+ oriental sounds)

Amazing !!

Also, about the price, there is currently a special offer (6 days left) for group buy when you can get a good reduction.
http://www.varranger.fr/vforum/index.php?topic=52.0

Of course, softwares are not against hardware, but along with hardware

Dan http://www.varranger.fr
_________________________
Regards,

Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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#289075 - 06/22/10 06:37 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
When things change, I'll revisit the question. But it's obvious from the lack of anything live from the open boys (or the poor quality of what little IS posted) that the reality does not match the hyperbole, yet. Technology moves pretty quickly, on the whole. But we've been waiting YEARS for the reality of open keyboards to match it's potential. Still waiting...


Things changed about 10 years ago when Wersi came out with OAS and have continually progressed beyond any closed system thereafter. You've never even played and OAS system in person but you're sure quick to negate it. I can't imagine what more you'd need the system to do as its already beyond everything else available in sound, features, and function.

The reality is the Wersi plays back VST's and sampled sounds that easily rival any closed system, your beloved G70 included. You being a devoted VST user should know just how superior their sound is. The Wersi factory sounds alone rival nearly every TOTL arranger out there and there are far more sounds as well (nearly 1 GB). I know you'll chime in proclaiming the user needs to spend hundreds or thousands more in VST's to make it useful but that simply isn't true. You'd know that if you actually took the initiative to play one. Why not take the time to get to know the keyboard personally before spewing misinformation and negativity about the system?

I believe you are in FL. Florida happens to have one of the highest concentrations of OAS systems so finding one to audition should be quite simple. Even though you've belittled Wersi owners and their keyboards time and time again I'm sure we nice folks would welcome you to audition one. Try it, be informed, then perhaps the bashing will stop.

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#289076 - 06/22/10 10:42 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
brickboo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 2068
Loc: Fruita, Colorado, USA
I have tunes sequenced on my keyboard to play my sax. I also have many tunes I use live from BIAB now for at least 8 years. I've never had BIAB substitute any chord for the one I put in.
Does anyone else use BAIB and had that problem?
Thanks, I'm just curious!
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#289077 - 06/22/10 11:36 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
I am only speaking for the piano found in Goliath. I did not check the full Pianos library that Eastwest has.

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#289078 - 06/22/10 11:46 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
arranger_yes_pc_no Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:
The strong selling point of open workstations/arrangers is for people that make their own music and own arrangements.

Still Lionstracs instruments are far from open.... as all buttons are tightly knit to the lionstracs interface. This allows for easy access and easy operation..

I think Lionstracs is the perfect mix between an open system and a closed arranger.. because live-arranger works pretty much like a closed arranger.. which also needs a standard soundset, because otherways it will be very hard to create content for these instruments...

Open-labs systems are much more open then Lionstracs... because of their freely programmable interface and knobs..

But the Liomnstracs almost offers all features without most of the downfalls as written about by Diki under his new account.
To be accessible there needs to be standards, Lionstracs is way less open then a PC, and exactly that adds possibillities for the community as there is a standard.


I might agree with you about Liontracs, it looks like what I might be looking for, but for now it's early to say, the presentations are not exaustive enough yet. Open Labs makes an optimized PC into a keyboard. Not what I want, at all.

For now I am very satisfied with the PSR, and I also bought a cheap Tascam audio multitracker. I am breathing fresh air again and feel like I have dropped a burden.
The PC stuff will be left alone until I write the full tracks on the PSR, as I have mentioned before.

And for the record, I am NOT Diki, so maybe it would be wise that you don't assume things that would then appear silly... Just a word of advice.

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 06-22-2010).]

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#289079 - 06/22/10 04:09 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
beachbum Offline
Member

Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 641
Loc: Austin
I have been playing around with Sonar and all the patches and mixing and this and that... Takes forever to get anything done. I can't beat the quality I've gotten from my past set up, simple arranger board recording to the computer with adobe Audition... Check out the sound quality, even if you don't like this type of music you have to admit this is pretty good with no additional extra's
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=313920

[This message has been edited by beachbum (edited 06-22-2010).]
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#289080 - 06/23/10 03:07 AM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6098
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensnareyou:
If you are using high end East West and Kontakt samples and think the PSR-3000 sounds are anywhere near the same quality, you seriously need to have your studio monitors or your hearing checked.

Any issues you are having with dynamics has to be an error in the setting of your system as the East West Piano samples are multi layered with more velocity cross fades and dynamic range than those on your PSR-3000. There's a reason they use 20-40GB for a single sound, it's called multiple layers, multiple velocity switching, longer samples, and more samples per sound.

There isn't a "closed" keyboard made that can compete with the best VST sounds available, its just not possible with the limited RAM and CPU power that closed keyboards utilize. I don't care how well you sample 128, 256, or even 512 MB of sounds and edit them, when a single sound on a high end VST uses 10, 20, 30GB or more and has nearly every key of the instrument sample mapped, its bound to be leaps ahead of your closed system.

Computers can be problematic and I agree that using an all in one system can be much better. The key is to find an all in one system that has great sounds, tons of features, expansion capability, lots of polyphony, is intuitive, and is built very well. For me that was a Wersi Abacus. For you it seems to be a PSR-3000 which is baffling to many I am sure.


I am not arguing with you that you aren't correct. But I don't really think it even matters. I remember some of the best piano performances I have ever heard being played on a Korg T3 which is far below the VSTs you mention or the PSR-3000. So the bottom line is nothing to do with the quality of the piano sample but has everything to do with performance. The quality of the sound is much more important to you than your audience. Worry more about how you play than how you sound. If your a hot player you will sound great using any piano sample ... if your not the sample you use won't help at all.

[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-23-2010).]

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#289081 - 06/23/10 08:04 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Nedim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel:
I am not arguing with you that you aren't correct. But I don't really think it even matters. I remember some of the best piano performances I have ever heard being played on a Korg T3 which is far below the VSTs you mention or the PSR-3000. So the bottom line is nothing to do with the quality of the piano sample but has everything to do with performance. The quality of the sound is much more important to you than your audience. Worry more about how you play than how you sound. If your a hot player you will sound great using any piano sample ... if your not the sample you use won't help at all.


Nothing ever was better said then this on this or any other forum...i just wonder how
many guys in here think that thi audience has a clue on what we use or think of Sound.
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#289082 - 06/23/10 09:03 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
hitman Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/04
Posts: 325
Loc: VA/ USA
The audience does have a clue, but it depends for what audience you play! If you are refering to most of the audience from eastern europe, residing in the US, than I will have to agree that they really don't have a clue or care what you sound like.

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#289083 - 06/23/10 09:40 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by hitman:
The audience does have a clue, but it depends for what audience you play! If you are refering to most of the audience from eastern europe, residing in the US, than I will have to agree that they really don't have a clue or care what you sound like.


Oooh, thats a bit harsh don't you think??

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#289084 - 06/23/10 09:54 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Taike Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2665
Loc: Taiwan-Laos-China
Quote:
Originally posted by hitman:
The audience does have a clue, but it depends for what audience you play! If you are refering to most of the audience from eastern europe, residing in the US, than I will have to agree that they really don't have a clue or care what you sound like.


Scientifically proven fact or just "your" opinion? It's hard to believe something like this. And if they're residing in the US, why not just call them Americans?

------------------
Bo pen nyang.
_________________________
Those that cry "freedom" often are the oppressors.

Science can't explain everything, but religion can't explain anything.

Those that are free don't have the need to mention it about every 5 minutes.

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#289085 - 06/23/10 09:59 PM Re: arrangers vs. PC software
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 37700
Loc: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by beachbum:
I have been playing around with Sonar and all the patches and mixing and this and that... Takes forever to get anything done. I can't beat the quality I've gotten from my past set up, simple arranger board recording to the computer with adobe Audition... Check out the sound quality, even if you don't like this type of music you have to admit this is pretty good with no additional extra's
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=313920

[This message has been edited by beachbum (edited 06-22-2010).]


Nice job Beachbum.....you've come a long way ...stay the course!! WTG!

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