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#286758 - 05/05/10 07:20 AM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
Spalding 4 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 96
Loc: UK
Abacus itís not about selecting the right steel guitar that sounds right to me. If you have 75 steel guitars better than the Yamaha or korg steel guitars that are present in the original style and you think it would make the style you are converting sound better than the original, then simply replace it with JUST ONE STEEL GUITAR.I mean you have over 75 that are better, just pick one. Let me hear it. The purpose of the demoís that have been requested (granted mostly by me) was not about seeing whether selecting an electric guitar or banjo or Koto or sitar or zither if you feel like it could b done on the MS. Thatís not even being debated. How is anyone able to make any comparison with the original style like that? I am looking at apples to apples. Thatís not rocket science and I am amazed at the amount of avoidance this one request has generated over the last 7 years. If it was just about making styles sound different to the original or unique to the user then anyone can do that on any arranger using no skill in whatever way they want and the user could validly make the same boast about style creation using a Casio or bontempi.

And James, I know some people are content just to swap the GM sounds on a midi file and then perform with that as it is. If all you are hearing is midi notes then I guess that will do I supposeÖunless you heard the original file that had been programmed on the original instrument that showcased the original instruments capabilities. But we can agree to differ James , it wont affect my view of the very good foundation you are working out for future MS users and I am a believer in most aspects of the MS (and korgs karma feature as an arranger tool ) purely thanks to your efforts. Thatís saying something. If korg integrate karma in its arranger products then it would change the game again!

Actually thatís something I might start as a thread on the Korg forum using you demo if thatís ok with you?

But Chas is right pretty much on every count. Enough has been said already. Thanks Chas.

I enjoyed the discussion anyway and we did achieve something in getting a musical example or two of what the MS is capable of as an arranger in the hands of experienced professional musicians. I guess anyone interested (if I havenít bored them all to tears) can draw their own conclusions from thoseÖÖ.Cheers worth.

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#286759 - 05/05/10 08:31 AM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
And James, I know some people are content just to swap the GM sounds on a midi file and then perform with that as it is. If all you are hearing is midi notes then I guess that will do I supposeÖunless you heard the original file that had been programmed on the original instrument that showcased the original instruments capabilities.


Ok.. don't take what I'm saying directed at you, this is a general reply to everyone.

To even care what the style sounded like on the original keyboard is an utter waste of time because no Lionstracs keyboard will ever sound like a Yamaha if you load a Yamaha style, just as no Yamaha will ever sound like a KORG if you load a KORG style into that.

Everyone needs to accept that fact and get over it. Cause and effect guys....!!! There is a argument here on this subject at all. You simply cannot make use of RX notes or other items that trigger layers in sounds unless you clone the sounds.... and since that's not going to happen why is anyone even talking about comparing.

It's like this..... You get a style from whatever keyboard, it DOES NOT MATTTER.... and you load it into your Mediastation and you assign the best sound you have. The end result of this will depend on the sounds you picked and what your two ears tell you. Either way you will still end with a Style that's totally playable. There are no technical aspects of anything that will prevent that from every happening unless your completely tone deaf and lack the ability to follow some simply instructions.

If you want more and better sounds... then you do what we are doing right now which is building our own GM bank from premium content.

The better the sounds the more layers you have, the longer the samples, and the more of them you get per individual sound. Which automatically = superior sounds which will perform any midi data you throw at them in a superior way, more dynamics and everything will just sound far more realistic.

So wondering what an original style sounded like is an utter waste of time.

Quote:
And James, I know some people are content just to swap the GM sounds on a midi file and then perform with that as it is. If all you are hearing is midi notes then I guess that will do I supposeÖunless you heard the original file that had been programmed on the original instrument that showcased the original instruments capabilities. But we can agree to differ James , it wont affect my view of the very good foundation you are working out for future MS users and I am a believer in most aspects of the MS (and korgs karma feature as an arranger tool ) purely thanks to your efforts. Thatís saying something.


That's all anyone CAN do. You can't reproduce RX trigger notes on any other keyboard unless you clone the sounds just as you can't do the same with Yamaha mega vocies and so on.

You have to also understand that the reason those technologies even exist is because the sounds don't have the layers a premium Giga file is going to have or the responses it will give at certain velocities.

This trigger data is very specific to the sounds selected, but yet I you assign a premium giga file it will reproduce the straight midi notes in far more detail than the original sound. Sure the triggers won't be there, but the dynamics of the instrument will respond far better to the note velocity.

So there is a balance to all this. One one hand you won't be able to get access to the triggers, but on the other hand your sounds are superior in every way imaginable and they respond to straight midi notes far better than the original sounds.

Quote:
If korg integrate karma in its arranger products then it would change the game again!


Now that's something that nobody could ever even attempt to emulate by conversion processes. If KORG put KARMA inside an arranger.... well game over for all other closed arrangers.

Quote:
Actually thatís something I might start as a thread on the Korg forum using you demo if thatís ok with you?


Go for it. You never know what the future may hold. All I can say is that KORG see everything that goes on. More so than you can ever know.

Regards
James

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#286760 - 05/05/10 11:41 AM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
BlkNotes Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 220
Hello James;

Is it possible to program ones own triggers into the midifiles? Either from scratch, or by taking an RX style or Megavoice style and using the upgraded GM/GS bacnks ( i.e. giga, vst like you and nedim are working on) and add triggers to various instruments in the styles?

I recall that Wersi has an OAA ( open arts arranger) software upgrade that converts Tyros mega syles to the Wersi sound banks ( improved samples) The converted styles then played wersi sounds in place of the Yamaha sound bank including triggers and the styles sounded considerably better then the original Tyros styles. More realistic, live, dynamic etc... So it must be possible to do this some how

Thanks;
BN

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#286761 - 05/05/10 12:43 PM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
HI BlkNotes.

Quote:
Is it possible to program ones own triggers into the midifiles? Either from scratch, or by taking an RX style or Megavoice style


Yes as the triggers are usually nothing more than a simple note values and very specific pitches and velocities. For example in KORG land they use very high notes and assign the effect in there. Like C7 to C9 could contain a range of guitar effects for example. Or if on any of the keys a velocity is received over a certain value, that triggers off a samples too.

This is exactly how Giga and other premium libraries have always worked.


Quote:
and using the upgraded GM/GS bacnks


KORG actually bests everyone in this regard because from the Pa1X Series onwards there is a new funtion in arrangers that allows it to scan the midi file and actually apply RX Technology (trigger notes) to the midi data to get the most from the sounds assigned to the midi file.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 05-05-2010).]

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#286762 - 05/05/10 01:07 PM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi BN
Wersi created and programmed a special voice bank for the Yamaha styles that matched the Yamaha voices, thus no conversion of style is required.
It can be done manually, but it is not an easy job, particularly as most of the Yamaha Mega voices are played using Midi instruments. (IE; A Mega Guitar is played and programed by using a Midi Guitar, rather than a keyboard etc.)
Hope this clarifies it for you.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (IÔŅĹm definitely staying put).

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#286763 - 05/05/10 04:04 PM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
KORG actually bests everyone in this regard because from the Pa1X Series onwards there is a new funtion in arrangers that allows it to scan the midi file and actually apply RX Technology (trigger notes) to the midi data to get the most from the sounds assigned to the midi file.



Actually, Yamaha has had this same feature for some time...since the Tyros1 at least.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286764 - 05/05/10 04:39 PM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Actually, Yamaha has had this same feature for some time...since the Tyros1 at least.

Ian


You do realise that the T1 only had 10 Mega VOices ? Mega Voices are not a technology. It's a gimmick for people who don't understand anything about sampling.

KORG's RX/DNC is a technology and it applies to everything on the keyboard.

James



[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 05-05-2010).]

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#286765 - 05/05/10 05:00 PM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
KORG actually bests everyone in this regard because from the Pa1X Series onwards there is a new funtion in arrangers that allows it to scan the midi file and actually apply RX Technology (trigger notes) to the midi data to get the most from the sounds assigned to the midi file.



Actually the T1 still had the idea first...and Korg obviously copied it...no shame really, as it is done quite a bit in the industry.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286766 - 05/05/10 05:07 PM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
You do realise that the T1 only had 10 Mega VOices ? Mega Voices are not a technology. It's a gimmick for people who don't understand anything about sampling.



No worse gimmick than anything else... RX/DNC idea copied from Yamaha...no shame.

That's why those who are smart, handsome, very cool, and extremely modest use Yamaha arrangers.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-05-2010).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#286767 - 05/05/10 05:18 PM Re: KORG PA2X Style on MS, Sound Comparison
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
No worse gimmick than anything else... RX/DNC idea copied from Yamaha...no shame.

That's why those who are smart, handsome, very cool, and extremely modest use Yamaha arrangers.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-05-2010).]


And those who are smarter, handsomer, cooler, modester, and certainly geekier , use open keyboards :P



Dennis

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