Both Ventilator (rotary stomp box) and MixCraft5 (daw) are reviewed and given "key buy" awards in Keyboard Mag..

Bernie, how does the G70 drawbar organ sound thru the Ventilator?
Also how does the rotary (Ventilator) compare to Native Instruments B4 rotary..?

Problem with using the Ventilator on the HB section of the G70, Fran, is that you STILL can't port it to its' own output, so you have to stop using the G70 for anything else while you use it. And there are VERY few sampled organ Tones (which you COULD route to their own output) without some Chor/Vib and Leslie already sampled into them, which makes for a horrible sound if you run them through a Leslie a second time...

Wouldn't mind getting one of these for my old Voce V5 module, though. I thought the Leslie in the Ventilator sounds a LOT better than B4's, to be honest. Main thing is to get some decent reverb on AFTER the Leslie. That's what p*sses me me off so much about the HB section. Pre-Leslie reverb! (and post-main fader distortion )

What utter morons!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-17-2010).]

Fran
It sound really good on drawbars and a few non Leslied organs. I use it in my band with separate UPG's, with the output from the mains. I even have some with drawbars and other instruments where I can put them on direct and tweaked to sound good. The biggest disadvantage with the G70 is that you cannot send the drawbars out on direct. This, of course, means no auto acc as Diki said on a previous thread, because you lose the effects if put out direct. I didn't try it, but took his word for it.

I don't have this problem with my Kurz or KN7000, as they send drawbars out on direct and the Nord sounds great with the Vent.

I always liked the B4 on my Receptor, but the Leslie sim is so much more pronounced using the Vent. I like the fact that I can tweak it all I want. I also have the Motion Sound Pro 3X that is going up for sale.

Believe me, there is nothing like it. It is the best purchase I have ever made, and I have made a few in my day.

Bernie

I was answering when Diki posted. While we are on the G70, is there any way to advance the OTS numbers with a pedal or switch ?

sorry, the ventilator is another very average quality stereo simulator.

just listen to the demos through headphones to see what I mean...it will make your eyes roll as the sound shifts from left to right on slow.

i like Lonnies very politically correct "for using with a wanabee hammond organ"...lol



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-17-2010).]

No, no OTS advance. Only way to do it (not a bad one, mind you) is to make a duplicate UPG of each with the OTS setting, put them all adjacent to each other in a UPS, then use an FC-7 to do UPG Up/Down.

"....and if you try sometime, you just might find.... You get what you need..!"

Two things I REALLY want on the FC-7 would be OTS 1-4 and Marker 1-4. Two REALLY handy things to do, that you would never need at the same time. 'Bout time someone hacked the OS of the G70, now it's officially orphaned

The thing about stereo separation is you can dial it down. Or use a stereo combo like the TraynorK4 to make sure that 'wide' is still only a couple of feet (like a real Leslie). If you are DI'ing into a PA, set your pans on 10 to 2. But doesn't the Ventilator have a 'width' parameter? If you are going to listen on 'phones, you probably want to dial that back...

A Leslie is not stereo, but it is a very 3D sound.

The acoustic image has to have more than one element moving within the stereo scene. Whilst the primary signal moves from left to right you also need to hear intensity as the horns throw the sound in different directions. more intensity and frequency range as the horn passes toward you, and less as it moves away. But more than intensity, there is a slight doppler (pitch shift) effect due to the horn moving toward and away from you. Also the bass rotor does not move with the horns (and sometimes in the opposite direction!) so that also needs a seperate image in the acoustic scene.

To date the only simulator I have heard that does this is the one on the KeyB which I know doesn't help you.

As far as I am aware a good add on simulator (at the moment) is a complete myth. But I always listen to the demos, just in case.

The demos for the ventilator are essentially a fixed mono effect moving back and forth across a stereo image that you can adjust to some degree. It lacks Intensity, Frequency and Pitch. As well as the supplementary elements as the sound is reflected back.

Why only one of the manufacturers have realised this is beyond me.

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-18-2010).]

And you think it sounds unreal ??
http://www.neo-instruments.de/de/ventilator/ventilator-demos

I like the sound of it,but my T3 will do the job also for me (in band)

Impuls.

those are the demos i based my comments on.

There's a BIG difference between the sound, close up, of an actual Leslie, and what your audience gets to hear, whether live in a medium hall (small room, usually the Leslie is sufficient by itself) or on a recording. Once you bring secondary amplification into the picture, most of the lovely 3D aspects of the Leslie disappear for the audience, and, of course, a stereo recording already IS two mono recordings combined to give the illusion of a full soundfield.

So, for purposes of a Leslie sim, the 3D aspects of a Leslie can be discounted, IMO. The goal isn't to make something that sounds JUST like a Leslie with you are sitting next to it. It is to make something that, when heard from the audience's perspective, is indistinguishable from a miked up (and recorded) Leslie. It's altogether too easy to fall into 'purist' traps and poo-poo anything that doesn't give YOU the impression of sitting next to the Beast, but the ultimate goal is to give your LISTENER that impression...

Sit at a REAL Steinway D or a nice CIIIF Yamaha, and there are 3D aspects to the sound that no recording or sample set can truly reproduce. But you are probably just FINE with using a TOTL sample set for live or recordings (Ivory, Truepianos, etc.), confident that your audience can't tell the difference. Why should the Leslie be any different?

The Ventilator (at least to my ears) comes as close as any sim I've heard (seeing as KeyB don't want to release the sim separately) at reproducing the 'recorded' sound of a Leslie. If TWD has any other nomination he thinks are BETTER, I'd love to hear them. But diss one sim, you've basically dissed them all. Even KeyB only outputs stereo, so the three dimensionality of a close up Leslie is gone for THAT, too...

The point I was trying to make about collapsing the stereo image is that a REAL Leslie's total spread direct is the width of the horns. The rest is throw. But altogether too many Leslie sims and B3 clones get put through PA's with the speakers 15-20 feet apart! So obviously, the stereo is wrong! Same thing for headphones... in real life, the left ear hears what the right ear does and vice versa. Cans stop that, and ruin a sim, unless you dial back the 'width' parameter.

The real trick to a sim is, record it live, with a combo (or just solo, even), then play it back and compare it to other RECORDINGS of a real Leslie, not to an actual real Leslie in the room! That's the only way you are getting a fair comparison...

I used to use all the same arguments and excuses as you when the XM1 and XK2 was released. I even wrote a guide for adjusting virtual mic angles and distances, correct panning and speaker placement and even using the best speakers and x-overs.

But the fact is...A budget price cola tastes as good as real Coka Cola to someone that hasn't had real a real Coke.

...The Hammond Player knows the difference, and when given the chance to hear the real thing so do the Audience.

Whilst average products get good reviews there is no incentive to do the job properly. I now know it is possible to create a 3d image in a stereo environment. Someone will do it, maybe not KeyB...but keep pushing for it and it will come.

I've played a Hammond/Leslie combination most of my adult life but am now quite happy with the built-in 'sim' on my Nord C1. Does it sound like a Hammond/Leslie? NO. Does it sound good? Yep. Has ANYONE ever complained that it doesn't sound authentic? Not so far. They HAVE complained, however, about me playing a wrong chord . Says it all, as far as I'm concerned.

chas

at least you couldn't have played the wrong note when you were grabbing a fist full of drawbars eh



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 04-20-2010).]

People hearing real and fake Leslie's on recordings for years. I doubt ONE of them can tell the difference. They are still more concerned about WHAT the organist plays, and less on what he plays on...

Far too much of this high priced 'clone wars' bull is about marketing and making money for the dealers. Let's face it, some of the top players in the business been happily endorsing and playing these same sims and clones that YOU find utterly unacceptable. But if you made more money of THEM than a real B3/147 combo, bet your life the story would be different!

Thing is, I remember what a REAL Coke, out of a real glass bottle tasted like back when I was younger. Even Coca-Cola doesn't sell the 'real thing' any more, and people are just FINE with drinking what they do make. It quenches the thirst, and after all, isn't that it's JOB?

A LOT of Hollywood scores are performed on 'virtual' orchestras, these days. ANY purist will tell you they don't sound identical to the real thing. But the audience rarely has a clue. As, to be honest, most musicians can't, either (bet YOU can't tell a good orch sim from the real thing). I use a real B3 and 147 in the studio several times a week. But out live, I'm happy with the sim. Sure, it's not identical. But neither is my piano, my Rhodes, my Clav, my strings, my horns, my synths.

But it's close enough for my audience, and it's THEM paying the rent...

Excactly Chas it's ALWAY about the "PLAYING" NOt the instrument.....that's whats so comical in some of these threads.....people should PLAY, PLAY, PLAY, ......instead of TALK TALK TALK.......I have no problems with the NORD leslie sound..I enjoyed playing it when I had the chance in some of the stores in the area. Nord makes a very fine instrument.

bet you didn't use the expression pedal, though!

You know, for someone that goes on so much about 'Play, play, play', it's amazing how little you care about WHAT you play, though.. Someone that is willing to play piano parts without a sustain pedal honestly has no right to make comments concerning the authenticity of ANYTHING, IMO...

Zzzzzzzzzz geeze diki you are really getting boring.....so much as you always know everything...I have to ignore what your saying most of the time. Especially on this sustain topic...I do it my way...you do it your way...there are NO rules........let's leave it at that shall we.....

but you can't can you?.......so continue with your last words as usual.....I got better things to do like go out for dinner now. Enjoy yourself.

i never said it wasn't any good full stop..its average, and fine for an average player with an average clone.

a serious hammond player will still lug a leslie around until something comes along that will not just be an average replacement..it has to be as good...or 'almost' as good as the original. And its not always about whats best for the audience. a good Hammond Organ will give something back and improve the performance of the player too.

The way I see it if your ok with the hammond sound on a general keyboard then something like the ventilator will be fine, so by all means go for it. Thankfully there are still plenty of people that don't feel inclined to settle for average gear.

So, if it's average, what is 'better than average' in your viewpoint as an organist..?

I mean, when the OP is about the Ventilator (a Leslie sim), what's the point in saying it's not as good as the real thing? Neither is Ivory compared to a SteinwayD, but few have the money to lug one of THOSE around. And few can lug a real 147 around these days, nor a full B3.

Back in the REAL world (you know, the one without cartage companies and roadies and technicians to set up and maintain a dinosaur rig), most of us HAVE to use sims. So, rather than just being a killjoy and purist, how about something USEFUL?

Like, if you don't think the Ventilator IS the best Leslie sim out there, which one DO you like the best (that is available standalone)..?

i never did compare it to any other sim if you read back. i listened to the demos because i was interested in it aqnd posted what i though to it...actualy i was hoping it would be better, because there is a great need for a good simulator. if anyone knows of one...please tell...because i don't know of one myself.

and if we don't compare a simulator to the real thing..whats the point? Our benchmarks for anything should always be the original version, wether its an effect or a sound....for instance, do you honestly not judge the sounds on your keyboard against the real instrument they are supposed to be replicating. if they don't sound as good as the real instrument, you can never say they are 'good' copies. ok, you might have to accept them as they are but it still doesn't make it sound any better.

i just wanted to say, when i referred to an "average player" I wasn't meaning to put anyones playing down, and I certainly didn't mean to insinuate anyone involved in the conversation had 'average' playing abilities.

ANY sim, sample set, whatever, is going to be a poor substitute for the real thing. The question is of DEGREE... I happen to think that of all the pianos in arrangers, the G70 is head and shoulders above the rest. But it in no way compares to a REAL piano.

So, when asking about organ Leslie sims, sure, you can reference back to the original, but once you accept that the real thing is completely impractical, it is simply a question of degree. So, once again, I ask you which you consider the 'best' sim available? After all, as an organ enthusiast AND retailer, you are in probably as good a position as anyone to give an informed opinion.

Honestly Diki..I am not sure what to suggest by way of sims. I do agree with you about practicality of carting a Leslie around if its not your main instrument. Although for someone whose primary instrument is a Hammond or Hammond Clone, a Leslie (or similar) is pretty essential (unless you own a KeyB...but even then for appearance sake you might still use a Leslie.) But if you are using the organ patches on the G70, then the Ventilator will probably be fine for you.

I just find it dissapointing with the technolgy available to us today; you would think that at least one manufacturer would do a good job with a simulator.

In the meantime...i will keep listening to demo's and if one comes up that I like i'll post it.