...and the more I think about it, the more I note that most great music was written by men (Broadway: Rogers & Hammerstein, George Gershwin Opera: Guiseppe Verdi, Puccini etc. And even the great bandleaders of the 40's were men.

Also, I don't ever remember seeing a woman in the field nowadays who was there to make great music. As I said they're there mostly for the attention or to simply make money.

I got into music as a kid because I simply "loved music." Couldn't get enough of it....would stay awake every night to listen to Alan Freed right up to midnight. I started playing because I wanted to make great music myself, not because I wanted to make money (although that came with it). In short, my goal was somewhat altruistic. Like Mama Leoni said in her commercials: Make good music and plenty of it....the people will come!

I don't see that desire in women. As was mentioned here, they seem to be wired for other things....and nurturing they are Black Belts at.

At various times throughout my career, I tried auditioning women to form a duo. Nothing ever worked because I found most of them to be in the field for the wrong reason. They're interest was in it, but their heart was NOT. I wanted to do great arrangements and work hard at it, and they just wanted to go out and sing....most of them not even wanting to take the time to go for vocal training.

I even have a lady friend who has a voice that would shatter glass. Julliard trained. Stops people dead in their tracks when she sings. I've tried many a time to talk her into doing a duo on stage. No dice. She's content with just singing in her living room while I back her up on the piano.

Again, I'm not knocking women at all. Just realizing a little more that they do so many things well (aside from giving directions), but they don't seem to have any innate interest in making great music.

Lucky

Well the music I play most is classic rock in the cover band I play in most weekends. But I it isn't really relevant to this forum simply because arranger keyboards just aren't that well suited to playing most rock styles. They tend to be too over processed and lack the raw energy that fuels most rock songs. Don't get me wrong I have heard some well performed rock covers on arranger keyboards but not that often. A lot of the problem is that many rock songs are electric guitar driven and generally electric guitar on arranger keyboards just isn't that convincing. If someone makes the guitar parts sound convincing on an arranger it is unusual and not the norm. And even when it is pulled off it is not at all easy to do. One of the most impressive rock covers I have heard recently was Eric's posting of Pink Floyd's The Wall but it was hard hard to tell how much of that was pre-sequenced. But the vocal harmony was really awesome and the guitar work was great.


I also think that this also applies to younger musicians who are most interested in electronica or hip hop. Arrangers don't tend to lend themselves to these styles. Hey I really think they could but that is not the market that manufacturers are aiming at so the styles to play these types of music just aren't available on arranger keyboards.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-05-2010).]

Sorry, Lucky, but that's about the most sexist thing on this thread. I know several killer female players and singers that are ALL about the music, and probably less about the money and attention than you are...

You are right that there are fewer than men, but you are wrong there are none (or just unlucky in your area). And where would we be without women like Bonnie Raitt, or Diana Krall, or Aretha Franklin, or Patty Smith, or Bj�rk or..... the list goes on and on.

And for an even more extensive list, try this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_composers_by_birth_year

That should keep you busy!

I think Diki sumed it up well in that women are more practical minded and perhaps even have more comun sense. Think all the money we spend on gear, all the time spent learning how to use, practice, look for gigs, lug the stuff around... I mean even if you have good paying consistant work when factoring all these things together its not practical, logical or sensible.

Actually, I think YOU summed it up pretty well yourself. We (men) just don't like to face up to it.

chas

There is no such thing as a �sexist� remark. There are only �remarks� made that are then LABELED by whoever hears it.

That said, I looked at your list of women composers. Diki, your argument doesn�t hold water. I didn�t see one female composer that I recognized or who wrote songs that would be recognized.

Now I�m not implying that women are not capable of making great music�see:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_were_male_composers_more_famous_than_female_composers
http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10042

�but I am re-stating what I said before:

�...and the more I think about it, the more I note that most great music was written by men (Broadway: Rogers & Hammerstein, George Gershwin Opera: Guiseppe Verdi, Puccini etc. And even the great bandleaders of the 40's were men.�

Be honest, have you ever heard compositions by women that even approximate what Beethoven or Cole Porter wrote. And wrote profusely.

Now if you happen to �know several killer female players and singers that are ALL about the music� that just tells me you KNOW some �killer female players and singers.� It doesn�t tell me there are enough of them to go around in the general music field to win the argument.

�Bonnie Raitt, or Diana Krall, or Aretha Franklin, or Patty Smith, or Bj�rk� These are contemporary artists who only came to the forefront relatively recently. I�m talking about since time began (or rather �music� began), men seem to have dominated the field of composing, NOT entertaining (and I won't downplay the contributions of vocalists like Judy Garland, Ella Fitzgerald, Sara Vaughan, Dinah Washington, Doris Day, Kathryn Grayson, the Andrews Sisters and the rest of the great 40�s/big band singers.

And yes, I do realize that for me it could very well be geographical. I live in an area that praises, covets, and respects only money and what it can buy. Around here, music and musicians take a depressing back seat to what's considered to be the �root of all evil.�

Lucky


[This message has been edited by Lucky2Bhere (edited 01-06-2010).]

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[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 01-07-2010).]

In a male-dominated world, what else to expect? Are men better, more talented?

Why not listen to the works of female composers and only then make an assessment. This would make more sense than just saying they're not as talented as their male counterparts.

I would feel pretty dumb putting female composers down if I'm not able to do even half what they can or have never listened to their compositions.

Regards

Taike



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Bo pen nyang.

Clara Schumann. Nuff said.

Remember, in Beethoven's time, most of the classical and Baroque eras, women weren't ALLOWED (by men) to train and make a living as musicians and composers. Remember, in the time of Shakespeare, men played all the women's roles You see any shortage of good actresses, today?

And you can't take my list of contemporary female stars, and diss it, then say you are not discounting Ella, Sarah, Dinah, and all the rest. Those modern female musicians are the logical extension of what came before.

On this of all forums, I would tread warily of labeling female musicians just 'in it for the money, or the attention'. Basically, if you CAN play well, you are only playing an arranger for the money or the attention You have the skill to play in a band, but choose to play with a machine for what? For the art of it? Or is it for the money and the attention (no other musicians to grab your limelight, are there)?

Finally...

"There is no such thing as a �sexist� remark. There are only �remarks� made that are then LABELED by whoever hears it." is absurd. Does that mean I can insult the hell out of you, but what I write ISN'T insulting, until you label it so...? I don't think so An insult is an insult from the moment it is written, and a sexist remark doesn't need someone else to call it that for it to be one...

BRAVO TAIKE & DIKI!

Women back in the beginning were not allowed to do many things. Only with perseverence have women broken through a few glass ceilings....

How about Alicia Keyes?

Elizabeth....