SZ membership: women vs. men?

In the several years I've been a member of SZ, I've seen very few posts from women. I can't name a single female by name.

I know there's a nice lady from England (Mary?) who surfaced during last Summers Ejam, but haven't heard from her since.

Are there any others?

Is this as weird as I think it is?

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Bill in Dayton

Possibly because...Retired or semi retired males appear to have more spare time to surf the net and involve in forums. Females even if retired are still busy looking after the home and looking after us males ?.
When we attend the UK Keyboard Festivals there are still many females there that own and play the keyboard-Piano-Organs.

Good point, Graham...

I think the whole keyboard scene is very different across the pond. I've read articles and seen videos of weekly/monthly kb meetings where various players share their talents. I don't know of anything, at least in the Dayton area that compares. It doesn't sound like a typical neighborhood "jam session", but perhaps that's really just what it is.

We need more women...

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Bill in Dayton

It's the same thing in pretty much any musician's forum. The two largest forums that I know of, it's, like here, 99+% male. If there is a piano forum, it might be more females.

Well, there's everyone's favorite, Rikkisbears... and Elizabeth.

Regards

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

They are always too busy cooking the dinner...lol

But on a more serious note ! why has there never been any great female composers in music history, our greatest music has always been written by men, with the exception of Bella Bartok I can't think of a single famous non-male composer ?

Bela Bartok

Geez, that is one ugly woman.

Come on, Pasadoble. One of the greatest composers and you thought "he" was a "she".

Actually there're quite a few but maybe you're not into Classical music. And then there are the female songwriters that wrote classics.

I prefer to think that whatever a man can do, a woman can do just as well, if not better. Men just don't want to admit it. Also keep in mind that men controlled what people got to listen to. Guess they still do.

Regards

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

To be fair females are more capable of being multitalented than us males.
They certainly have the flair to produce music or anything they wish, but many just leave us males to play with our toys.

Same on KORG Forums.
We have probably 98% male, 2% female.

The females post quite often so they are easily spotted, but sadly that leads to problems as some males are simply not able to conduct themselves accordingly around a lady. It's sort of funny in a way, reminds me of being back in school in the kids playground.

Regards
James

And there's Linda Fus. I can't think of any others.

Okay boyz......

The reason there are fewer women posting on musical forums is that women have always been surpressed in what they want to do with their own lives! The reason is MEN!

Go back to the stone ages and look at those big guys with clubs in one hand and the hair of a female of their species in the other hand.

Women still are fighting for equality all over the planet. As long as men are placed in positions of authority, women will not have an equal voice or equal treatment.

Examples: Women are still not totally in control of their own bodies. Women are not always credited with their contributions in every walk of life. In many countries of our world women are abused regularly and forced to comply with the wishes of men.

Why don't we post here on these musical forums? We do when we have something to say that feels worth sharing.

Over on the Technics forum, there is Audrey Turner and Joan Banfield in the U.K. and Mary from Tucson, and myself in NM U.S.A. who post from time to time....

TAIKE.... Thanks for remembering my name!

Elizabeth in New Mexico, U.S.A.

Princess, every once in a great while.

Thanks, Elizabeth for checking in.

I want to make sure I understand why you feel more women don't participate in the SZ forums. Full disclosure, I'm the proud papa of three young ladies.

Are you saying that women don't participate because of men not wanting them to?

Or are you saying, you will "when we have something to say that feels worth sharing."

Which almost sounds like you're saying women have very, very, very little to share on this forum.

Would you clarify, please?

Thanks-

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Bill in Dayton

Hey! I'm the boss of my family, and I have my wife's permission to say this!

Sorry Elizabeth--I just couldn't resist.

In reality, I only knew of one, female, arranger keyboard player in my part of the world. She was damned good, a lot better than most of the male players. She was a great vocalist as well, but she eventually gave it up because she lost her voice because of a surgical procedure that damaged her vocal folds. I still keep in touch with her and have encouraged her to get back into the biz, but she says that financially, it's not worth her time and effort. She makes more money teaching music at the local high school.

Cheers,

Gary

BILL in Dayton.....

I will attempt to clarify. No, I am not saying that women do not participate because of men not WANTING them to. I am saying that women are not allowed to particiapte as musicians where men are in authority. Keep in mind that this is my opinion and that I speak only for myself, as a result of my own experiences.

Yes, I am saying that women will share on these forums when we feel we want to share. For me, it is about the subject matter.

I am not a professionally trained musician. Mostly I play for my own pleasure and the pleasure of those who enjoy listening, playing along, and just sharing what we know about our keyboards. I play as a volunteer only. Therefore, in a group of musicians who play professionally, I have little to contribute or share that I feel might be of interest.

No, I am not saying that "women have very very little to share on this forum."

I am saying that I have very little I want to share on this forum. I was remiss in stating that I do not speak for any woman other than myself.

Hopefully BILL in Dayton, I have answered your questions?

Elizabeth

Elizabeth, it's generally accepted that an arranger forum concentrates on speaking about arrangers. I don't think your tirade against MEN, as you emphatically spat the word out, endears you to either sex. There are plenty of other fora for shouting from soapboxes. Try them.

Elizabeth, I think you'll find most of the people here are not pros, but that they just enjoy arrangers, as you do.
Maybe the pros are more vocal, but it's good to remember that a lot of what "we" say isn't even relevant for the vast majority of arranger players.
I think we need more women, posters AND players.
DonM

Hi Elizabeth.

I have to say that when reading your posts I feel that there is a misplaced level of bitterness in your words towards men and that the world you believe you live in is certainly not the world the rest of us live in that's for sure.

You can be whatever your heart desires in this world. Women are in power all over the world and doing all the same things men are doing. The president of my Country is a women. Your friend in the UK lives under the rule of the Queen. About the only thing women haven't done yet is set foot on the moon and you can be sure that the reason NASA didn't send a women to the Moon wasn't to do with their sex.

Ok the world is not a pretty place, but it sure ain't the sexist place you make it out to be.

Equality starts within you know...!!!!

Regards
James

PS... this thread has major disaster written all over it.

Thank you, all of you, for your comments....

I will feel that women are indeed considered equal to men on our planet when no woman is raped, beaten, sold, and violated in any additional form on our shared planet.

I will feel that women are indeed equal when at least 50% of every governing body on the planet are women.

I am pleased to learn that many of my musical friends are, like me, self-taught musicians who volunteer to entertain others and share with others.

Like most of you, I read this forum for general information. It was NOT my intent to start a tirade about men vs. women although apparently I did that.

You are correct that I do have considerable experiencial reason to distrust men generally.

Additionally, I have a great deal of experiencial reason to admire, love, and trust far more men than I imagined I ever would....

I feel I have the right to voice my opinions whenever and wherever I am moved to do so.

I am done now, for this thread.

Elizabeth

Hi Everyone,

I normally post when I have questions about arrangers or want to share new musical toys I have purchased or found. I have posted several times this year, only to be totally ignored. So, I find myself not posting at all!

I have found over the years here, that Synthbbs is dominated by money making performers and not so many hobbyists as in yesteryear. Nothing wrong with that. Times do change.

Maybe, many of you will pass my posts over for more interesting posts which touch on your professional status. This is not a bad thing, it is just 'different' than what I remember in years past.

I can not speak for other women here just myself.

No need to take this thread to a nasty level. I do not 'hate men' nor do I not post here because it is mostly men. I work with men all day long and I am never ignored. While the content I share with men at my job is different than the content here, it is still technical knowledge. Men at work respect my knowledge of the subject matter and learn from what I have to offer as I learn from them.

I hold back now on Synthbbs. Subject content here is geared more with a specific click of men who enjoy conversing about many different topics of no interest to me and have nothing to do with arrangers.

Instead of commenting on mine or Elizabeth's explanation of why women do not post, try taking a look at the subject matter posted by men who post here. How could the subject matter include a more overall group of people with arranger interests other than professionals? Could it be that it is not a 'women' issue and possibly a mans issue?

Maybe this thread is a good way for the male members to review their recent postings and see how they could include the hobbyists that lurk in the shadows?

Hmmm....

Thanks for reading!

-Linda

Well said, Linda...it also seems to me that lately some of the posters are actually ashamed to admit they actually play an arranger...it's like it is a last ditch effort and somehow un-manly, or even worse, un-musicianly, to be playing such an instrument.

Not all are like that...just a few..it's almost comical reading the defensiveness that never occurs on other arranger forums.

Just a point that occurred to me while reading your post.

Thank you for your well worded and very candid post.

Ian

Thanks Taike,
nice to be remembered.

I'm so easily overlooked , being that I'm a mere female & hobbyist to boot. ( haa haa
only kidding.)

Personally, I've always found the guys on the music forums great. I do quite often get mistaken for a male , (Rikki as a name doesn't help.) Even tried a cute little Teddybear avatar on Korg Forums, didn't help.

Normally I do get a response from someone when I post. There again, if I don't, I can only assume my subject matter wasn't really of interest to anyone except myself (haahaa hey, get over it.)
When I've asked for help, I really don't think I've ever been let down.

Ladies, if the subject matter on the forum isn't of interest, don't complain, try & come up with an interesting subject of your own.
If everybody sat back & waited for someone else to write about something , the forum would die.

I just tend to think the music forums hold more interest for males than females. In the 10 years or so I was involved with the local music store ( as a customer & worker), I think I only ever came across 1 female in the upstairs hi tech area of the store ( keyboards , synths, studio equipment) Maybe things have changed in the last few years, I haven't been back since we moved.

If I want to chat to females I go to my Teddybear Making forums ( my other hobby)
I think I've only ever come across 1 male there.

best wishes
Rikki




[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 12-30-2009).]

Perhaps women are simply more interested in PLAYING their arrangers than bragging about how good they are to their friends and colleagues..?

As little content on this forum about the former, and so MUCH about the latter as there is, perhaps this MIGHT have a bit to do with their non-participation..?

But a point that sidetracks this thread (sorry, Ian). Does sexism exist on this board? Probably. So does racism and every other kind of -ism. But probably no more so than in the general population. Sadly, it's just where we are as a society in 2009. Will it ever change? Probably not, as long as there is estrogen and testosterone. But that doesn't mean we can't treat each other with mutual respect and pursue a goal of equality. Yeah, I know the male lion sleeps all day while the females hunt for diner but he at least fends off the hyenas and lets face it, there wouldn't be any little cubbies without him .

I think Linda is correct in that most of the jabber on this board is of little interest to most women. Only about 30% of the posts are about arrangers (take this one, for example ) and half of those are of the 'mine is better than yours' variety. They're probably even less interested in testosterone-fueled 'middle fingers'.

In the end, most boards have their own personality and will appeal more to one group than another. You may notice that there aren't a lot of Rockers on here either.......or young people......or (fill in the blank). Some 'arranger' boards stick close to the matter at hand (arrangers) and usually concentrate on one brand. This is not that type of board. Like most boards, strong personalities tend to dominate and in the case of this board, those personalities tend to be older, male, OMB's. It is what it is.

chas

I sure wasn't expecting some of the responses I got.

Elizabeth-Apparently I touched a nerve, unintentionally. I would like to see more interaction from women on the SZ. You launched into a kind of feminist sociology kind of thing, which I don't really see a connection to my original question. I tend to agree with a lot of what you said but didn't expect that to come up in this kind of thread. As the Father of 3 daughters, I hope wages and benefits come on line with what Males receive for each of them. As far as the beatings, rapes, etc. you mentioned, most civilized, Christian based countries do pretty well. ON the other hand too many countries in Africa and the Middle East have a totally different mind set on a women's place in their societies, so equality is way down the road.

The owner of the SZ, Nigel is a man, but I don't believe he rejects female registrants. So, no man is blocking any women from participating around here.

I can accept that you and perhaps other people, both men & women just prefer NOT to post here. On the other hand, you might be surprised at the encouragement you could get if you got more involved.

There's a lot of very nice people around here. Some know an amazing amount of stuff about arrangers, others are great players, others are just good people who are part of the mix. We can all act like jerks sometimes, but for every nasty post, I see 20 nice ones.

Please don't be a stranger...

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Bill in Dayton

Linda-

I went back and browsed a few of the posts where you received no responses. One was about a list of usb compatable devices for a certain kb, which I'm surprised that no one was familiar with. I'm not knowledgable of it myself, but I'd guess somebody around here is.

Another one was about a problem, which you then reported as fixed...

A third was a new midi controller which, again was way beyond anything I ever deal with. My hunch a post like that might've been more fruitful in the MIDI sequencing and keyboard style forum, not sure...

Other posts did show responses...

This happens to all of us. Its not personal, sometimes a thread just doesn't take hold. I've started plenty of dead threads myself...

As to your point that perhaps the most common topics are specific to the Pro's or guys in general and NOT very appealing to hobbyists. My screen shows the 40 most recent posts in the General Arranger Forum. Currently, six of the 40 aren't directly related to music. 36 are, or 90%. I think that's pretty decent and can't find anything within these 40 that would pertain to guys as opposed to women.

I think the pro's vs. hobbyists idea is valid. If we targeted new players/hobbyists/etc. what exactly would be appealing to this group? More tutorials on various arranger tasks? A great number of that material is already over at the psrtutorial site.

In other words, what could the established players, many of them pros, do to increase and stimulate participation from less accomplished players?

I think you have a high knowledge level and a greater presence from you here would be welcome by most.

Thanks for sharing-something to think about...

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Bill in Dayton

Rikki-

Yeah, I thought you were a guy for the longest time, lol... Sorry!

You make a good point. When I'm in a local music store...its 80% guys at least browsing around. In this market for professional entertainers using arrangers, it's even higher. There's Me, Jim H. (Zuki) and one or two others who are also guys. I think I know of one female on the circuit but she's not very well thought of.

How/why did this apparently become a man's game for the most part?

Good post...

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Bill in Dayton

I get what you're saying, Diki but is it really that prevalent here? There's a few guys who are usually pretty rigid in their attitudes and beliefs. "This is the right way to play-all other ways are wrong" kind of stuff. But that's hardly the majority.

I think the vast majority of guys take the stance "This is what works best for me and this is why..." But not to the exclusion of all other approaches...

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Bill in Dayton

How many married guys would object/encourage their wives to have an "expensive" hobby as theirs?

Bill in Dayton, whether a woman gets assaulted in Africa, the Middle East, Europe, Australia or the USA, the end result is still the same. Statistics don't mean a thing to victims. If you're a victim you're a victim.

Regards

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 12-30-2009).]

Depending on the financial circumstances of the family, it could be a pretty expensive hobby. In the end, as long as it didn't hurt us financially, I'd support any thing my wife wanted to do.

Yes, victims are victims but to look at the problem in a realistic way means we have to consider the culture where these heinous acts are committed. In most Countries, to treat a woman in that way is a crime, but in some other Countries, its not. As sick as it sounds to us here in the States, to change a cultural thing is waaaay more complicated than to arrest a violator of a crime.

Nothing we could do can change how some Countries view women in the short term. I think, over time, more countries will adapt more equal policies regarding women. Progress will not be nearly...not nearly fast enough...

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Bill in Dayton

Perhaps the way that women get treated in other parts of the world will change when we start to refuse to trade and do business with their societies, no matter how cheap their prices are..? Financial isolation is the only tool short of all out war that can change a culture.

And, I'm sorry to say, the women of the wealthier nations are as much to blame for this than their male partners. Want to change how China treats women (and girl babies) in their culture? Stop shopping at WalMart... Don't buy anything with Made in China (or any other repressive country - not singling China out, here) on it until they have at least the rights our women do. Of course, YOUR standard of living will drop for you to make this point, but it's the only thing that will have any REAL impact. Boycott Middle Eastern oil, boycott African countries' products, put up with LESS in your life, to pressure a culture for more equality in theirs...

It will soon become apparent whether you DO care or not...

But, this talk of 'total equality' is utter nonsense. The only time the genders will be completely equal is if there is no gender at all (not MY idea of a good time!). More and more scientific research shows us that men and women's bodies and minds work in quite different ways, completely independent of culture. This is NOT an excuse to treat them differently, but I think it IS a reason to not expect us all to react, behave or view the world identically. Women, on the whole, tend to be more cooperative, more collaborative, more communicative and more likely to be supportive of each other than competitive males. Which might be a reason so few take the time to get involved here..?

Let's face it, making music on an arranger is quite possibly the easiest of just about any musical task short of playing a kazoo And those that DO want technical information are usually found on the specific forum or their particular keyboard (which tend, for obvious reasons, to be FAR less combative than here) and there usually only enough to find out what they need. Other than that, what does SZ offer in the way of playing tips, music appreciation and general support for each other? Not a whole lot, I am sad to say.

This is a 'General' arranger forum, which tends to imply that it is for the discussion, comparison of 'general' arranger topics rather than machine specifics. And what else IS there but comparison, opinion and counter-opinion once you take away the simple 'how do I format an S910's HD' type of question, better suited to a PSR forum? Cooperation and collaboration is going to be difficult to engender when we all play different arrangers, and each of us is convinced we have the best?

Plying competitions (or eJams if you prefer) wither on the vine or devolve into rancor. Tips and Tricks go unremarked. Suggestions for new ways for manufacturers to coax more 'real' performances from our machines get little response. But diss the S910's keybed, or the Audya's sampler, or the Roland's weight, and NOW you have a discussion!


Maybe women ARE the 'better' sex, just for staying away from such unproductive topics?

And as well as Rikki, Elizabeth and Linda there is also Joan and Audrey on the Technics forum here as was mentioned in an earlier posting but I thought I would just remind everyone once again.

While the female members are outnumbered the quality they bring to the forums is unsurpassed. The most refreshing thing is they don't have the uncontrolled ego that unfortunately many men seem to have.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 12-31-2009).]

Oh well, but I don't ban threads based on where they may go. I don't think you do either James. In fact if some members make an ass of themselves well that would make a statement related to the topic that this thread is addressing.

When I first joined the arranger group I feel I was possibly looked upon as a female - Cass, how many do you know? I also thought Fran Carango might be a woman. It took a little while to get comfortable, but I don't think the gender issue ever impeded my or others comments.

What I wonder about is - how can so many members simply read the forum for "content" and hardly ever respond? There's obviously something here that draws you into reading. Are you not taken in by something that would make you respond? Woman or man, sitting on the sidelines on this forum especially, seems stranger than buying a daily paper and never going beyond reading the headlines. Participation is key to the lifeblood of the forum. By being a constant lurker what does anyone gain?

Oh boy, fasten your seat belts... ???

Hi Nigel



No, not at all. I wasn't suggesting that it should be closed. It's just one of those threads that worries me because it could go either way.



Yes, very true. I just hope nobody gets provoked into doing something stupid and getting banned over it.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 12-31-2009).]

I'd be really disappointed if somehow this thread down a bad road. Even those most opinionated among us seem to be making their points in a respectful fashion.

I wanted this thread to focus on the lack of females on the SZ. All due respect to Elizabeth because she makes good points about how females are treated in some places, but, I don't think its really relevant to this particular discussion.

That angle of this would be a great topic for The Bar. As we have members form all over the world, I'll bet we'd get some interesting observations.

I'm interested in hearing from some of the "lurkers" on what kind of topics/content they'd respond to.



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Bill in Dayton

I don't get it...In my musical world , there is equality..in fact most of my musical friends (musicians, singers, entertainers) are women..not men...

So why would I not expect SZ balance to be the same..Ladies, "start your engines"...I for one would not mind an increase of ladies participation in discussions here...

Also I know I rather listen to the ladies instead of the turned 60, depressed guys that have shown a reflective attitude..

I will be picking up my favorite lady (music favorite, don't want my wife to get the wrong idea.. )..she will be joining me in our New Year's Eve job..

Gotcha !!! Yep you are very right. It's pretty much jump on the roller coaster and see where the ride takes ya

Hi Bill,
not to worry. If it concerned me I'd put a Mrs in front. Mrs Rikki's Bears.
Not very musical sounding, but the bear hobby preceeded the music hobby on the internet.

I'm actually in Australia, so thought it might have been unique to here. ( ratio of men to women keyboard players)

The music store owner used to let me tag along to some of the trade shows if keyboards were involved. No females attended.

There was a Roland user group that I attended for a couple of years , 40 males, one wife ( who tagged along) & me.

Basically there was no shortage of female musicians in the shop. Downstairs where they sold sheet music , violins, flutes etc plenty of female customers,& a number of female piano teachers. Upstairs in the hi tech area, it was pretty much a male's domain.

A lot of the keyboard players I've chatted to over the years on various forums have come from an organ background. Sold the organ & bought a keyboard. Maybe that's got something to do with it? Maybe more men than women played organs also??

To me the transition from organ to keyboard seems more natural than from piano to keyboard.
The piano style I'd been used to was arpeggiated left hand. Doesn't work on a keyboard. Took me quite a while to get used to playing full left hand chords.

best wishes
Rikki

If I had to guess why many just read and don't "respond," it might be because they haven't learned to type as well as the rest of us. I'm sure there are many who might fit into that category.

Lucky

I've been thinking about this topic since Bill first posted it.

In my own experiences, having had a very colorful dating life when I was younger, I found every lady I ever went out with had absolutely no interest in music (other than listening to it on the radio) and no interest in my career as a musician. Not even an attempt at it. Even when they knew my whole life was about making music. Zilch, nada, nothing! I've always had to carry everything myself.

I never gave it much thought until this topic appeared. Sure I know lady musicians and vocalists but as I think about it, they seem to be only in it for the money or for vanity reasons. There's not one I know does it purely for the sake of making great music.

Even in the music stores, I only remember seeing women as, what I call, "tag-a-longs" with hubby or their boy friends.

Now, this is not a condemnation of the female gender. Just my own observations about me and women and music. Also, I don't rule out that it could be geographical. But this is how it is in my neck of the woods.

Lucky

Mostly bumping this thread because I felt the conversation wasn't over.

Maybe I was wrong, I hoped some of the other women would continue the dialogue.

Perhaps us guys are more chatty than the women are, lol...



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Bill in Dayton

Personally, I think there are fewer women in professional music because it is an insane business to be in! Only men are stupid enough to think it ought to be a career...

Women are more practical than us... Maybe it's something to do with knowing they are finally responsible for raising children, and can easily see this isn't easy if you are out playing in clubs all night every night. I know of a few women that have succeeded in this, but I also know of many that either never got into it, stayed with teaching for a living (steadier pay and sensible hours) or got out of the biz altogether.

Men tend to be more irresponsible, and what better profession for that type than music?

I agree with those comments in terms of playing out, but not sure that really drills down on the premise of this thread.

C'mon ladies...participate....

Please!

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Bill in Dayton

Thing is, Bill, most ladies learned the piano. And still continue to play it. Only some people, mostly men, it seems, want to play in a full band, and the arranger is the way to replicate that sound. After all, it's mostly a guy thing to go 'Let's form a band... hot chicks and all we can drink!' The arranger helps many to give themselves the sound of having done that, even if they didn't actually do it in reality...

But if playing in a band wasn't on your to do list (as many women feel, I think), why would you play something that sounded like you had?

Women don't seem to have the ego that guys do. I see all too many posts here explaining that some play arrangers because they couldn't get along with a real band, it always seems to be the story that everyone ELSE in the band was a slacker, was late, couldn't learn new tunes, yada yada yada... Personally, I don't buy it. I just think an arranger flatters the ego because you can be as bad as it gets, and the arranger never writes on a forum somewhere how bad YOU are (you in the general plural sense, that is!) and puts down your playing!

But women that WANT to play with a band generally DO play with a band. But many men just like to pretend they are playing in one

Very interesting and insightful, Diki. I've always wanted to perform/play in a band. The bands I have played in have never had aspirations of stardom and were never bigger than a quartet. I was always a small fish in a small pond. The one big chance I had came at 17, but I was too naive and innocent to give into the urge. Judging by what happened to many of those one-hit wonders, I'm glad I stayed in the little pond.

As for women players, I guees I agree that their aspirations and drive are definitely in a different gear. I played with a woman singer who, all of a sudden, decided she no longer wanted to sing the lyrics and do the jobs. She just picked up and stopped singing. Even her husband can't coax her into singing with his garage duo. She has the voice of an angel and sings as effortlessly as I've ever heard. She just has a different drive mechanism.

This all seems to suggest that the sexes are hard-wired differently. Vive la difference!

...and the more I think about it, the more I note that most great music was written by men (Broadway: Rogers & Hammerstein, George Gershwin Opera: Guiseppe Verdi, Puccini etc. And even the great bandleaders of the 40's were men.

Also, I don't ever remember seeing a woman in the field nowadays who was there to make great music. As I said they're there mostly for the attention or to simply make money.

I got into music as a kid because I simply "loved music." Couldn't get enough of it....would stay awake every night to listen to Alan Freed right up to midnight. I started playing because I wanted to make great music myself, not because I wanted to make money (although that came with it). In short, my goal was somewhat altruistic. Like Mama Leoni said in her commercials: Make good music and plenty of it....the people will come!

I don't see that desire in women. As was mentioned here, they seem to be wired for other things....and nurturing they are Black Belts at.

At various times throughout my career, I tried auditioning women to form a duo. Nothing ever worked because I found most of them to be in the field for the wrong reason. They're interest was in it, but their heart was NOT. I wanted to do great arrangements and work hard at it, and they just wanted to go out and sing....most of them not even wanting to take the time to go for vocal training.

I even have a lady friend who has a voice that would shatter glass. Julliard trained. Stops people dead in their tracks when she sings. I've tried many a time to talk her into doing a duo on stage. No dice. She's content with just singing in her living room while I back her up on the piano.

Again, I'm not knocking women at all. Just realizing a little more that they do so many things well (aside from giving directions), but they don't seem to have any innate interest in making great music.

Lucky

Well the music I play most is classic rock in the cover band I play in most weekends. But I it isn't really relevant to this forum simply because arranger keyboards just aren't that well suited to playing most rock styles. They tend to be too over processed and lack the raw energy that fuels most rock songs. Don't get me wrong I have heard some well performed rock covers on arranger keyboards but not that often. A lot of the problem is that many rock songs are electric guitar driven and generally electric guitar on arranger keyboards just isn't that convincing. If someone makes the guitar parts sound convincing on an arranger it is unusual and not the norm. And even when it is pulled off it is not at all easy to do. One of the most impressive rock covers I have heard recently was Eric's posting of Pink Floyd's The Wall but it was hard hard to tell how much of that was pre-sequenced. But the vocal harmony was really awesome and the guitar work was great.


I also think that this also applies to younger musicians who are most interested in electronica or hip hop. Arrangers don't tend to lend themselves to these styles. Hey I really think they could but that is not the market that manufacturers are aiming at so the styles to play these types of music just aren't available on arranger keyboards.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-05-2010).]

Sorry, Lucky, but that's about the most sexist thing on this thread. I know several killer female players and singers that are ALL about the music, and probably less about the money and attention than you are...

You are right that there are fewer than men, but you are wrong there are none (or just unlucky in your area). And where would we be without women like Bonnie Raitt, or Diana Krall, or Aretha Franklin, or Patty Smith, or Bjørk or..... the list goes on and on.

And for an even more extensive list, try this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_composers_by_birth_year

That should keep you busy!

I think Diki sumed it up well in that women are more practical minded and perhaps even have more comun sense. Think all the money we spend on gear, all the time spent learning how to use, practice, look for gigs, lug the stuff around... I mean even if you have good paying consistant work when factoring all these things together its not practical, logical or sensible.

Actually, I think YOU summed it up pretty well yourself. We (men) just don't like to face up to it.

chas

There is no such thing as a “sexist” remark. There are only “remarks” made that are then LABELED by whoever hears it.

That said, I looked at your list of women composers. Diki, your argument doesn’t hold water. I didn’t see one female composer that I recognized or who wrote songs that would be recognized.

Now I’m not implying that women are not capable of making great music…see:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_were_male_composers_more_famous_than_female_composers
http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10042

…but I am re-stating what I said before:

“...and the more I think about it, the more I note that most great music was written by men (Broadway: Rogers & Hammerstein, George Gershwin Opera: Guiseppe Verdi, Puccini etc. And even the great bandleaders of the 40's were men.”

Be honest, have you ever heard compositions by women that even approximate what Beethoven or Cole Porter wrote. And wrote profusely.

Now if you happen to “know several killer female players and singers that are ALL about the music” that just tells me you KNOW some “killer female players and singers.” It doesn’t tell me there are enough of them to go around in the general music field to win the argument.

“Bonnie Raitt, or Diana Krall, or Aretha Franklin, or Patty Smith, or Bjørk” These are contemporary artists who only came to the forefront relatively recently. I’m talking about since time began (or rather “music” began), men seem to have dominated the field of composing, NOT entertaining (and I won't downplay the contributions of vocalists like Judy Garland, Ella Fitzgerald, Sara Vaughan, Dinah Washington, Doris Day, Kathryn Grayson, the Andrews Sisters and the rest of the great 40’s/big band singers.

And yes, I do realize that for me it could very well be geographical. I live in an area that praises, covets, and respects only money and what it can buy. Around here, music and musicians take a depressing back seat to what's considered to be the “root of all evil.”

Lucky


[This message has been edited by Lucky2Bhere (edited 01-06-2010).]

.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 01-07-2010).]

In a male-dominated world, what else to expect? Are men better, more talented?

Why not listen to the works of female composers and only then make an assessment. This would make more sense than just saying they're not as talented as their male counterparts.

I would feel pretty dumb putting female composers down if I'm not able to do even half what they can or have never listened to their compositions.

Regards

Taike



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Bo pen nyang.

Clara Schumann. Nuff said.

Remember, in Beethoven's time, most of the classical and Baroque eras, women weren't ALLOWED (by men) to train and make a living as musicians and composers. Remember, in the time of Shakespeare, men played all the women's roles You see any shortage of good actresses, today?

And you can't take my list of contemporary female stars, and diss it, then say you are not discounting Ella, Sarah, Dinah, and all the rest. Those modern female musicians are the logical extension of what came before.

On this of all forums, I would tread warily of labeling female musicians just 'in it for the money, or the attention'. Basically, if you CAN play well, you are only playing an arranger for the money or the attention You have the skill to play in a band, but choose to play with a machine for what? For the art of it? Or is it for the money and the attention (no other musicians to grab your limelight, are there)?

Finally...

"There is no such thing as a “sexist” remark. There are only “remarks” made that are then LABELED by whoever hears it." is absurd. Does that mean I can insult the hell out of you, but what I write ISN'T insulting, until you label it so...? I don't think so An insult is an insult from the moment it is written, and a sexist remark doesn't need someone else to call it that for it to be one...

BRAVO TAIKE & DIKI!

Women back in the beginning were not allowed to do many things. Only with perseverence have women broken through a few glass ceilings....

How about Alicia Keyes?

Elizabeth....

Diki…..do you think at this point you’re possibly just throwing “stuff” against the wall until something sticks?”

You’re manipulating what I said to suit your needs for rebuttal. Read it again, please. I said “I don’t know of any women around here that aren’t in music just for the money or for vanity reasons.” I also said I live in an area that praises riches and looks down their nose at mediocrity. So what would be the obvious conclusion you would come to from those two statements?

Now I really don’t care to make a judgment call about if women were suppressed in the days of the great Classical composers. The bottom line is what I said: “there were few great KNOWN female composers to compete on the playing field with Beethoven or Chopin or even Scott Joplin. This is the way it is. I mean the facts are right in front of you, yet you still won’t admit to what I’m saying. Forget about whether or not they were suppressed, oppressed or DEpressed. In speculation, maybe they WERE better at composing and just didn’t get the chance to do it. We’ll never know that. What we do know is that they DIDN’T compose, while they’re male counterparts DID. And, hence, got the exposure.

Lucky says: “"There is no such thing as a “sexist” remark. There are only “remarks” made that are then LABELED by whoever hears it."

Diki says: ...this is absurd.

Lucky says: No, Diki it’s NOT absurd. It’s only absurd if you THINK it is absurd!

Diki says: Does that mean I can insult the hell out of you, but what I write ISN'T insulting, until you label it so...?

Lucky says: yes, that’s exactly correct! You can only insult me, if I deem it to be an insult! That’s not to say I won’t recognize insulting intentions, but I choose whether or not I want to interpret it as a degrading slur and react to it. I have free will to make that call.

Diki says: I don't think so An insult is an insult from the moment it is written, and a sexist remark doesn't need someone else to call it that for it to be one...

Diki…where do you get your “insult” information from? I suggest you study Metaphysics or Spirituality or “power of the mind” books in general.

If someone says broccoli tastes “awful,” does that make it “awful?”
If someone says graffiti sprayed on a subway train is “vulgar,” does that make it “vulgar?”
If someone makes a remark about the lack of women composers, does that make it a sexist remark?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is most everything else in the world. Nothing is beautiful or ugly, or tasteful or tasteless, or easy or hard, etc. It’s all in how you, the individual views an object, a situation...OR...a remark!

Lucky

So, if you say that the women musicians in your area are only in it for the money or the attention, does that meant that it is actually a FACT...? Apparently, not. Only if the women agree with you...!

And yet, you post it. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone would post anything, if it means nothing.
I certainly don't agree with it, I know of no woman that would agree with it, so it seems you have completely wasted both our times.

I suggest you get your nose out of those books, and rejoin the real world. Of course, that's only a put down if YOU take it as a put down. In actual fact, it's just photons coming off your computer screen. It means nothing...

Diki,

I greatly admire your intellect, but aside from that, would you answer me WHY...

1) you have to be "right" about everything, and

2) why you have to have the "last word" in every posting, and mostly......

3) why you're never "wrong" in any of these threads that you enter in to?

Lucky

Behind every great man there's a great woman.

Regards

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

So, Lucky, you are trying to tell me that YOU are wrong, you AREN'T trying to have the last word, and that you don't ever believe YOUR opinion is correct?

Didn't think so...

Seems we have a lot more in common that you would like, eh?

Diki...I never thought you weren't a regular, OK kind of a guy. I just wish you wouldn't take postings in here and play Devil's advocate with them. You seem to have a desire to keep others in a holding pattern somewhere in an imaginary "penalty box" because they dare to write something you don't agree with.

Speaking for myself (and I'm certain for others who have traveled down this same road), I don't appreciate putting pen to paper with my thoughts and then having them (what I write) manipulated and challenged for the sake of sport, and...spectator sport.

It was recently questioned why postings are slow lately. I don't doubt that those who prey off others posts (example: my "God" post) do a lot of damage to the sought-after easy flow of conversation. We already know of some members who stated that they've had it with being taken through the wringer on much of what they post.

As far as who's right and who's wrong, what keyboard is better, can the Audya play a sus/4th, are women better at music then men, etc. I couldn't give two hoots about it.
There IS no right or wrong. There are only opinions. And, speaking for myself, I would like to state an opinion or a view without having to go into battle over it.

You're a smart guy...I'm sure you get my drift.

Lucky

Smart enough to see that you are playing a double standard, here.

YOUR opinion isn't fair game, but mine IS?

Bottom line is, what kind of forum would this place be if, no matter WHAT anyone posted, good, bad, erroneous or indifferent, NO-ONE (because I'm SURE you aren't just singling me out as the only one that isn't supposed to respond, are you? ) was allowed or even OUGHT to comment on it...?

You are honestly telling me you've NEVER responded to a post you disagree with? Please...

If you want to air your opinion and have NO-ONE refute it (or agree with it - after all, what's the difference?), go outside your back door and speak to the wind... Otherwise, should you choose to post that opinion here, you are going to get people that agree AND disagree with you chiming in. THAT'S what a forum is for. Debate, consensus, agreement or disagreement. You honestly expect people to NOT disagree with you if they feel that way? Or even agree with you. After all, that's an 'opinion' too, isn't it...?

You are disagreeing with me, here and now. Allow others the same rights you take for yourself...

Diki…..I don’t even know what you’re talking about anymore. Your strategy of manipulation, distortion, aggression and attrition against those you view as an opponent is starting to come across. You’ve rewritten the whole play so that now the characters look nothing like they did in the opening act.

I’m going to say this as nice as I can here. You don’t seem to be one that I can have a reasonable and “adult” conversation with. You’re also coming across as a bit neurotic at this point, so why don’t I just back off real slow? Let’s consider you to be the winner of this discussion, but please, also consider therapy for this need you seem to have for confrontation. It wears people down to the point you start to think twice before you post anything in here.

Lucky

Fortunately, apparently, as long as I don't consider you calling me neurotic is an insult, it ISN'T...

However, I'm pretty sure you wanted it to be!

You see how silly this can get?

Diki/Lucky-

I'm calling foul on both of you for hijacking my thread on why women don't participate more on this forum. As the creator of this thread, I get to have some small token (perhaps imagined) say about its direction.

Clearly, this isn't what I wanted...

You both have made good points about women/music, but now its becoming a pissing contest. You two don't agree on the recent few threads, you're not going to agree, its getting a bit personal and you're killing the thread. The content of the last few entries would be better suited to a private email exchange, so take it there. It's done, ok?

If you want to contribute specific to my original question, I'd welcome it, but this sideshow is quickly turning into a distraction.

No winners, no losers...I just want to get things back on track. Why women don't participate more in the Synth Zone...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-09-2010).]

Reset...

I know in the Dayton metro area, female side "persons" are a very rare breed. I don't know of any female guitarists or keyboard players. I knew of one drummer about ten years ago but I believe she's either in a nursing home or possibly has passed away. There's a killer Trombone player I'm aware of, but never use and there are several harpists in Dayton who work a lot on the Wedding circuit.

If I think of singers, then the list is longer than all the above combined. I would be able to find a quality female singer more easily than I could a male vocalist.

How is it in your areas? How many kb, guitar, etc. females are you aware of?

If several people geographic regions report roughly the same things, that female kb players are rather rare in most places-then I suspect I'll have found the answer to my original question.

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-09-2010).]

Aside from classical music performed by symphony orchestras where strings dominate (slight edge in female players), I would guess from my own half-century of experience in music, that female instrumentalist make up no more than 2% of professional musicians working in 'pop' music. Probably no more than 50% of that number are keyboard players and of that number, only 10% (I'm being generous here) play arranger keyboards. Using those figures, we would need 1000 active male posters to produce one single female poster. Add to that the fact that the average female poster would never involve themselves in most of the bulls**t that permeates this board, and it's a wonder we see any female posters at all. Just my take on it. Is that on-topic, Bill?

chas

Sure, Chas...Thanks for getting us back on track.

I tried to search some of the American Federation of Musicians website for some demographic data, but couldn't find any...I think it would support your last post.

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Bill in Dayton

Hi Guys,
strangely enough, hubby was tv channel surfing New Years Eve, when we came across a Symphony Orchestra playing a New Years Eve Concert. I asked him to leave it for a moment, just wanted to check how many females. The camera was doing bit of wide pan. Would have been at least 60 to 80 Orchestra members, strings , horns etc we only spotted 1 female.

Thought it might have been an all male orchestra, but no. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to find out what Orchestra it was, hubby's not into Symphonies, but he did help me play , spot the female member. haahaa.

best wishes
Rikki

That's interesting, Rikki-thanks for sharing that...

Thinking back to my High School days...we always had more girls than boys enrolled in those courses. All the choir, band, orchestra teachers were male. In college, 3 males and 1 female were in the department. Currently for our daughter's HS, the two band director-asst., chorus teacher and orchestra teacher are all female.

My thought is that more females tend to fill teaching positions, than men...but men prevail in live performance...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 01-09-2010).]

I think that this pinpoints the issue exactly. Society does encourages people to/away from activities based on sex. It is stupid but it is a fact. I'm sure there are many men that would be proficient in making teddy bears but they have never been encouraged to do so ... actually strongly discouraged. This starts at an early age even in school where males and females are encouraged or discouraged from taking certain courses. There has been a move to change this but it will take a long time before old attitudes die.

And men will post even when they have nothing to share but feel compelled to engage in d*** waving confrontations. It says a lot about female intelligence that they always refrain from getting involved in these childish and destructive interactions. Some men just can't control themselves and have their buttons pushed far too easily. Women just don't want to play this futile game.

I have never had to ban a woman from this forum.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-10-2010).]

My take on this women vs. men idea is pretty simple - the two sexes approach communication differently, for the most part. Even though both might excel in playing, some women aproach music differently also. I don't feel that a woman would want to (generally) participate in this type of forum. If there were a similar forum populated by a majority of women I'm sure you would find the topics, comments and replies much different than the men's. Sit down and listen to a group of women have a gabfest, then move over to a men's group and hear the difference. Topics, approach, style are vastly different. JMHO.

Sexism is taught both at school and at home. And once the brainwashing's been completed deprogramming starts but with far less effort. Hypocrisy at its best!

Regards

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

I think it still boils down to child rearing... In pretty much ALL societies across the world, the female parent is stuck rearing the children, even if the male decides to try something as foolish as trying to make a career playing music fulltime! Women, at least, have the sense to know that the child is going to need at least ONE full time parent, and should they decide to make music their career, it's going to be only the tiny, lucky few who will be able to rely on their male partner to raise the children while they go out at night (and day!) to play music...

Hi Nigel,
let's face it, most men wouldn't admit to owning one, let alone create them.
As you said, we're stereotyped.

Strangley enough the "Teddybear" was named after President Roosevelt.

Elvis Presley owned a teddybear called Mabel. Poor thing was eaten by it's guard dog Barney, back in 2006. The then collector wasn't too happy. Mabel was valued at $75,000. ouch.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nigel:
[B] I think that this pinpoints the issue exactly. Society does encourages people to/away from activities based on sex. It is stupid but it is a fact. I'm sure there are many men that would be proficient in making teddy bears but they have never been encouraged to do so ... actually strongly discouraged.

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 01-11-2010).]

Hi Bill,

Sorry I’m late with this...I’ve been playing all weekend.

I accept and agree with your “foul” call. Looking back in retrospect, it wasn’t very thoughtful of me to hijack this thread and morph it into something not even remotely resembling your original topic. I’m sure you know it wasn’t done consciously...when you’re in a heated discussion you tend not to see anything but the “heated discussion.” I must remember not to let things get that far out of hand next time.

Please accept my apologies. I know I wasn’t too pleased, myself, when I used to see my own topics go “south.” Glad to see you managed to get yours back on course.

Lucky

You're fine, Lucky...

Been there, done that, lol...Happens to everyone...

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Bill in Dayton