Hi guys.

Here's a little something that you might find interesting, but first I need to be explain what's going on here so you can understand all this. I'm posting this so people will know why I keep banging on about how much more advanced the KORG sound engine is compared to the competition.

Here's an original tune I wrote and performed on a KORG Triton Studio. http://www.irishacts.com/leanbh-mo-chroi/Track%2011%20-%20Cainteach.mp3

Every single sound you can hear in the tune, and I mean everything is the result of me sampling two girls singing scales into a microphone.

By that I mean I would start with the lowest note the girl could sing and she would hold that note for a few seconds. The I would record the next semi tone up and keep going until I reached her top note.

I then took theses individual recordings and assigned them to notes on a keyboard so when I pressed the keys, I'd hear the girls singing the note I was pressing.

From there then I used the sound engine of the KORG to warp the sounds into a large combination of different sounds which resulted in everything I needed to create that tune you are listening to.

So everything you hear is the result of two girls voices computerised. No other material was used, no factory sounds, no nothing. Just two girls voices.

From this work and other voices I recorded I even released a Sample CD of all these sounds which will load into most KORG keyboards.
http://www.irishacts.com/ezypal/index.php?do=catalog&c=korg_triton_%2526_pa_series_libraries&i=vocal_assault

Regards
James

Here's another original tune. Everything you hear except for the Twinkle Bell notes that come in at the Chorus are produced using the same methods I explained above.

http://www.irishacts.com/leanbh-mo-chroi/Track%2009%20-%20Neamhai.mp3

Regards
James

One last example..
Here's what the voices sound like mixed with factory sounds and drums.

70% of what you hear are human voices warped by the Engine, the remaining 30% are factory sounds and drum kits.

http://www.irishacts.com/leanbh-mo-chroi/Track%2005%20-%20Banphrionsa%20Faye.mp3

Regards
James

Nice work James, There is no doubt that Korg’s editing capabilities are at a high level (probably the best, compared to other keyboard companies). They have great sounds, especially the layered pianos, Rhodes & my fav was the i3 strings. (JMO)

But I see the Korg, especially PA2X more of a studio arranger, than a gigging arranger, not that it can’t be used as one. I know many people use them and before everyone jumps down my neck. I find with all those great Korg sounds (and they are great), Korg does not do enough to produce better quality styles. This all subjectable and based on different tastes, Yamaha has really improved with the mega voices and the guitars really bring a nice touch to their styles. Ketron (pre-audya)!! Drums and bass are in your face and styles just come alive like a band (remember pre-audya) Audya is a whole other discussion. Roland…(hasn’t released anything new to compare too) plus I’m bias ( I hated my g1000).

I wish Korg with all these great sounds would only produce better styles. Just my thoughts….

PS I'm not trying to start a mine is better than yours but as James opinion of Ketron and the audya (which I respect) is his. But I also would like to add korg keyboard to my giggs but I find 'others' better suited for my playing style than what Korg has release at this moment.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 12-02-2009).]

I have several on-line friends using Korg arrangers, and that has been their biggest, and pretty well their only, complaint.

Do you think the same might be true for Audya, although, they do have their older models that have plenty of great styles that you could use in the former?

Ian

I put the audya aside only because everyone will jump on the "issues". But from what I heard online a playing one for a couple of hours the styles are extremely high quality. Just WOW, are the only words I can think of. The previous model always had great styles and very "band" like. But the Audya just sounds like a band, it hard to tell the difference.

Hi mc




Those are all totally fair comments and something I respect. We are all individuals with certain needs and tastes as you said. The story with the Audya is a different matter and has nothing to do with sounds or styles. It's purely about what Ketron has done if you ask me.



I totally understand and even the purpose of this thread is not a mine is better than yours story either. It's simple meant to be a demonstration of just how advanced their sound engine is.

When you say you want better styles, what do you mean exactly though because the only difference I really see between Korg styles and other makes of keyboards is that the KORG styles tent to run much longer before they loop back to measure 1, where Yamaha styles for example are usually always in around 4 measures long.

Is it not better to have a style that runs more like a performance than a loop ?. Or are we talking about something entirely different ?

Regards
James

Sounds good. You have done some excellent work with the sampler.

But the sound engine used, is the sampler, not necessary the on board sounds and not an arranger.

Good work however.

.


[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 12-02-2009).]

I originally had a song posted, but I feel that maybe it lead changing the direction of the thread.

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 12-02-2009).]

Ok, let me get into "better quality" styles. I not am saying that all of styles are not useable. There are plenty of styles that sound good but as a whole think the styles should really stand out, in your face.

The drums have improved over the PA80, they sound much more real the sampling is much better. But I think it is the actual style assembly and/or the actual recording of each track, drum, bass, accomp. 1,2,3 etc that needs improvement.

The things that I would be looking from Korg is a much a fuller style. More a live band feel, plus a latin section overhaul.


KETRON SD5: 0:00- MERENGUE 0:30- SALSA 1:28- SLOW SWING 2:20- TENOR SAX http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAUfsWF60V8

Latin Salsa http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/products/pa2x_demo.html?en

If you go to each demo section of the Korg and The Ketron http://www.ketron.it/demos/index.asp?lNum_idDemo=2 http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/products/pa2x_demo.html?en

There are some similar styles for each brand. Compare the sd5 styles assembly.

I would like to here your thoughts on comparisons.

Hi DanO1




Sorry but a sampler can only reproduce what it recorded, it cannot change the sound.

It's the sound engine that takes the signal and turns it into so many different sounds as demostrated in the songs.

The same rules apply to any device that produces it sound by the means of PCM sound generation. Samples are only recordings they can never be changed by the sampler. Only looped, chopped or reversed. Either way, it's still just the same recording diced without the sound engine.

Regards
James

Hi mc.



The main difference I hear is that the SD5 sounds more like a keyboard with lower quality samples than the KORG which at no point sounds like a keyboard. It sounds like a band.

For example compare these two. http://www.ketron.it/mp3/SD5/BigBand.mp3 http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/mp3/pa2x/Full_Songs/08_Big_Band.mp3

The Ketron bolts out the gate with a blast of music but the sounds leave a fake taste in my mouth, especially that trumpet sound. Where the KORG one seems more like a relaxed professional band sitting back and enjoying the mood if you know what I mean.

Or here's a better example altogether. http://www.ketron.it/mp3/SD5/Salsa.mp3 http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/mp3/pa2x/Full_Songs/11_Latin_Salsa.mp3

The Ketron is very weak and lifeless sounding and the drums are very fake, where the Pa2X is again far more professional sounding and live. Again sounds like a real band.

I'm not sure I can find anything on the Ketron that I like better than the Pa2X from a sound quality point of view. Everything on the KORG just sounds far more believable.

As for style programming quality, they are pretty well matched I think.

Regards
James

Well I am happy you love your Korg so much as much as I love Ketron.



[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 12-02-2009).]

After playing many years Yamaha I find the Korg styles much better. More realistic and less boring than Yamaha styles.

I'm not sure how this became a Korg vs. Ketron debate but at least in the salsa example the Ketron sounds much better to me. I play Yamaha and wish I had some Latin styles that came at least close to the Ketron.

Maby Korg latin styles aren't as good as Ketron's( personally I think the Korg sound better ) but every keyboard has his pros and cons. And Audya has a lot of cons. Especially if you see how much this keyboard cost.



[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 12-02-2009).]

Perhaps I started it, so I will remove my tune.

That's too bad, Dan...I thought it sounded great.

Nice work.

Ian

This is the real bit what Fran says, where in Gods name is the other £2000.00 in the Audya, it isn't anywhere, it's in your imagination, it certainly isn't in better anything, I have both side by side, well one on it's end. Anyway Auyda is not finished yet and I doubt if it will ever command a £2000.00 cost difference. As well I have never heard sounds coming out of Audya like James gets out of Korg, that's why no Audya users are posting sound samples like his.

As it seems, people are more interested in setting up another thread about styles in the different brands of keyboards, leading up to yet another Audya bashing thing even.

Too bad. Let me reply to your initial posting then. Yes I find this VERY interesting, and I am very impressed by what you did here. This must have been one hell of a job to sample, tweak, alter, assign... and on top of that you wrote, played and produced beautifully a couple of great songs to use all those new sounds. Excellent job! Thanks for sharing these recordings!

Expect some traffic from visitors of a Dutch forum soon. I'm going to write about this there :-)

------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

Well it only becomes a Audya bashing when one individual chimes in on how bad his Audya is.

James originally demonstrated how powerful Korg’s sound engine is. Which it has great sounds and features. I would like to own a korg in the future again. But for Korg to earn my business, I would like to see a better style assembly and fuller styles, especially in the latin section. I wasn’t try bash Korg, not at all. I used the Ketron SD5 example, (since the Audya is a completely different animal). I play a lot of latin music and over the past 10 years they’ve improved their keyboards, but never upgraded their latin section to the same degree. I don’t know if Korg reps read this site. It just input from a potential customer that would like to see more. Whether Korgs answers the calling in future models is up to them.

I think we have gone well off topic which is ok I guess, but let me just say that to take two female voices and turn them into a number of new sounds and write songs with them is nothing short of amazing by any standards.

It takes one hell of a powerful sound engine to do all this. This is not about a “mine is better than yours”, I simply want to make people aware of just how advanced KORG keyboards are. Weather you use the engine yourself or not in this manner or to this level makes no difference, you still benefit from its abilities just by selecting the factory presets because the sound designers at KORG use every system to it's fullest to create those factory sounds.

Regarding the Audya .... and to go off topic again I personally don't think there is anything wrong with how it sounds that merit any sort of negative feedback. If I don't like it or any other keyboard over a Pa2X, then that's just a personal taste thing, it is in no way a negative slam down for the keyboard I might have compared against. Not everything has to measure up to the abilities of a KORG keyboard just for me to like it. There are just some certain expectations which define the keyboard and command respect. The Audya is one keyboard that does not even come close to meeting those expectations but the reason for this is Ketron and the state they released the keyboard in, so it has nothing to do with how it sounds. Never did and never will.

When I see the Audya I just think of Ketron releasing a keyboard long before it was even ready to be release in an attempted to turn a profit on a failed project. When I say failed project I mean a failure from the point of view that many of the targets ketron set out to reach where never meet and that the project ran well over budget and it's deadline. So to turn a profit they released a unfinished keyboard on their customers with the intentions of finishing it later. That to me is totally unacceptable for a number of reasons. The price is also in my opinion a result of the project overrunning and not the technology in the keyboard.

Anyway.... that's not what this thread is about.

Regards
James

No James don't stop never mind going off thread, I think you were just getting to the interesting bit when you stopped.

Ketron bashing is old because Ketron is old

Dan,

I believe most of the Ketron bashing has been about the Audya's shortcomings and bugs...not it's sound.

Regarding other Ketron instruments, how they sound to one person will differ from how they sound to another, especially if they compare them with what they are presently using and/or promoting.

I think a Ketron, sounds like a Ketron...just like a Stratocaster and a Les Paul have their characteristic sound(s), so do keyboards from their respective manufacturers.

I think Ketron instruments sound great...they just don't sound like Yamaha, Roland or Korg; that's not necessarily a bad thing, unless you expect them to sound that way.

I've been on your site several times...you do some fine work, both with your compositions and your arrangements.

Ian

+1

Sound Engine has NOTHING to do with the Onboard Sounds or the Sampler.
You can use Samples from wherever you like, the SE is just the tools to work with.

Ian,
I think you hit the nail on the head. Each manufacture has there own familiar sound. Yamaha & Korg similar in there own way, very polished cd like sound. Ketron sound are in it self, unique. I think more ruff around the edges, in your face type. To each his own. I think a lot of people who dislikes ketron sounds, are just that:

"they just don't sound like Yamaha, Roland or Korg; that's not necessarily a bad thing, unless you expect them to sound that way".

I am sorry you feel that way.

I really don't know why I even try to defend the Ketron product or post on this forum.

I left when Diki was around and decided to come back when he was suspended.

I will leave again so that I can just read.

Life is way to short to read all this negativity on a product and company I worked for at one time and respect.

Merry Christmas.

Best of luck to all.

I totally understand, all of the posts have been hijacked just to become an audya bashing. Instead of talking about features, undiscovered shortcuts, what can improve on our keyboards, etc. Some members just act like children. So please don't go dano, You have tremendous amount of knowledge about Ketron, that people should take advantage of your experience in keyboards.

Good luck in whatever you decide.


[This message has been edited by mc (edited 12-03-2009).]

Dan- I had never even heard of Ketron until I found this forum a few weeks ago. Yamaha is the only arrangers sold in stores around here. Anyways I am very impressed from the samples I've heard and I hope my next keyboard will be a Ketron.

This is very childish. Boohoo they insult my favorite brand and now I don't post anymore. Please grow up.

Guys, it IS possible to keep a civil debate about all this - always has been, always will be.

Some people overeact (in my opinion) by leaving, on the other hand, some people ARE just too blunt, short and abrasive without much regard to anyone's feelings or any attempt at diplomacy - all that under the guise of "revealing the truth" - Diki was most often guilty of this in my opinion.

Hellboy I think the only issue is that folks sometimes forget, this is text based!!

In the old days letter writing was a true art form. Being able to express exactly ones thoughts and feelings, with both the correct syntax and grammar, complete with punctuation, meant the receiver of the letter was able to "get inside the head" as it were, of the writer.

These days it's get to the point in as short a possible time, and forget any sort of grammar. We as humans are really designed for face-to-face communication, and once away from that we really need to consider very carefully our writen word construction.

In essence I think that is the only issue.

Time and again, folks on this forum have said if we were all in a room together we would all get along very well. I concur with that.

Folks do need to step back a little when reading a text message and try a little empathy with the poster.

I know I have been guilty of immediately jumping up and down (not literally) when reading a post, but then after a moments pause, realise there was no malice in a particular post, just someones opinion, and of course their complete right to express such an opinion. The same as they (I hope) give a post of mine the same respect and thought.

Dennis

And that, in a nutshell, is the whole crux of the matter. Well said, Dennis.

Nice post Dennis

Fairly said Dennis.

Ya know, I hope we all WOULD get on in a room together, but for mostly good reasons, (not just because we would all be within *ahem* arms reach of each other if you know what I mean!) nevertheless, that was the point of my post.

It IS text based and people CAN'T (fully) divine an original intention (good or ill) without getting in someone's head - or at least hearing the tone of their voice/seeing their face.

Therefore:

They really should choose their words carefully.

(I think maybe you're mainly talking about people's REACTION to the other person's posts - yes?)

I guess we can all have days where we're thin skinned (myself definitely included) - or more to the point, feeling good or bad about ourselves. The more confident we are in ourselves, the less defensive we are when someone questions our choice of Keyboard/P.A./Song/ etc etc



[This message has been edited by hellboy44 (edited 12-03-2009).]

Hi All,

You can spit your dummies out and throw your toys out of your prams until the cows come home but I will not change my stance until such times as Ketron finish the product that I bought. There are some out there who are happy with Audya and that’s OK with me, but I am not happy, James has tried to explain the difference between the Audya and the Korg, I have explained the price difference. My next door neighbor drives a BMW and I have a Ford, good job Ketron don’t make cars. Look for God sack don’t take offence to the first line on this note about the toys and dummies, it’s not personnel it’s just business, if you can’t see what Ketron has done to the people who bought Audya then don’t reply to any of these threads cause I am having a rant about it. I am not going to be s***t on from a dizzy height and get rob at the same time, the Audya is not worth £4200.00 as it is now. James has spelt this all out to you chapter and verse and if anyone can argue has well has he plays and programs Korg then let the battle begin. If you like your Audya then turn away now!

Regards All


[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 12-04-2009).]

I think you got it. The poster bashing a brand should be an adult and be able to express his or her self in a civilized way.
Once the original poster does things correctly, then it is up to the receiver of the post to also response civil.
Communication is a two way street.


It is made more difficult over the internet since we are not in physical reach of each other and we do not know each other.
But even being in physical proximity of each other does not necessarily guarantee civility.
You can have people arguing over things in a bar after a few drinks and can be very rood and loud. Or you can have persons discussing topics as they would in a coffee shop or public square.

I would like to think of Synthzone as a public square or coffee shop. But there are persons who have come from the bar after having 5 or 6 drinks and appear to have no other purpose than to talk trash about keyboards and OT things.


In communication tone and venue are very important.

Nobody is even commenting now on the topic of this thread.



I'm rather disappointed because what I was trying to demonstrate is quite extraordinary. To be able to take a human voice and do all that to it is something I personally appreciate on many levels. The beauty of the human voice to the technology that allows us to explore our imagination.

Regards
James

Hey James...sorry I'm late commenting...busy with Yamaha stuff and getting ready for a quick tour.

This example you posted is astonishing, and indicative of the power and complexity of the Korg's engine.

It's no wonder Triton was and is so popular...a few of my Yamaha clinician buddies use them along with their Motifs for personal gigs, and I understand why they do.

I'm working on picking up a Wavestation EX...waiting to find out it's condition.

Nice work, and thanks for sharing your talent.

Ian

You must have missed mine. It was on topic. Yeah, it happens

Bart

------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

Hi James,
luv the demo.
Tinges of Enya?
Took me weeks to learn Watermark (slow learner). None of my synths at the time had anything in the way of good human voices to try & create a midi backing.

Will the sounds work in my PA800??

Ian recently gave me a copy of a style he created ( Freestyle) which precedes the T3 Ethereal Style. It has no defined rhythm
( basically layered pads )some of these voices may work beautifully with it.

Don't want to get too excited just in case all the sounds won't work in a PA800.

best wishes
Rikki

My apologies James - I got caught up...

Yes, definitely an achievement that demo!
If it makes you feel any better, I'm not surprised, because you see - you're the Preacher, and I'm the choir. I own a Korg PA1-X Pro Elite!

Hi Rikki



Probably one of my all time favourites. I love just playing it straight on the Piano when I'm stressed out. Minutes later I'm in almost a dream like state.



They will indeed. The Pa Series edition was designed for the Pa1X, but it will load straight into the Pa800. The download also comes with the Triton Edition which is slightly higher quality because twice the amount of Sample Ram was used. That's why I have downloads to show the Pa Series edition against the Triton edition.

Regards
James

Hi James,
is the Vocal Assault a CD ( postage) or is it a download??
If it's a download, roughly how large, & is it made up of a number of small downloads, or is it one large download?

Only reason I ask is, I'm on a wireless broadband, at times it's really slow & I get dropouts. Unfortunately my contract's for another 12 months.

I followed the link you posted. I could have missed the relavent info.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Rikki.
Your roughly looking at a single 100MB download. My server is also super fast, we have huge amounts of bandwidth because we host KORG Forums.

Regards
James

Thanks James,
I was a bit nervous because of the poor quality of my wireless broadband setup.
The download worked perfectly, not a single glitch.
Beautiful voices. Some of them are going to sound really great with Xmas Carols.
Heavenly choirs haahaa.

best wishes
Rikki

Enjoy.

Kind Regards
James