That is the most blinkered, untrue, partisan statement on this whole thread...

Users of WHAT? Closed keyboards? Balderdash! They MIGHT chose the SOUND of an open keyboard's piano sound or maybe B4, but the minute they play any of the content, the minute they play a sequence on it, they find out just how clumsily assembled these things are. Their soundsets are NOT well balanced, their demo content is embarrassingly amateur, and their OS is convoluted. And, on the shelf next to a MoXS or T3, they sound like a bad Casio with 24 bit converters And then they chose the closed product over the open one.

The 'open' keyboard market is a TINY, TINY fraction of the whole keyboard market. They are outsold thousands to one. And any of these users has the opportunity to listen to an open keyboard, at least online, and MAYBE in the store. And they STILL go home with a closed keyboard...

You see, to most people, the SOUNDS, each individually, are not what makes someone buy a keyboard. A keyboard is an 'integrated system'. The sounds (all of them, and how well they work with each other), the content, the OS and the physical layout are ALL equally important.

I have a sneaky feeling that open keyboard fans are really taking sound quality of one or two sounds as their ONLY criteria. Perhaps because they already HAVE keyboards that do the other stuff well. But perhaps they MIGHT let reality creep into their decision were they buying an open keyboard to be their SOLE piece of gear (after all, with all the hype they put on them, why WOULD you need ANYTHING else? )...

I simply keep getting the impression that the open fanboys keep missing my point. YES, I already use VSTi's. I use them as well and as much as my other types of keyboards. But there simply is no way in HELL I would, at this point in open keyboards' development, use them to REPLACE my conventional keyboards.

With one exception... Yes, I agree that Wersi have done a better job integrating the front end into the 'normal' way of operating and using an arranger. But at a horrendous prise premium and penalty. Oh, and there's much about the Wersi's home organ legacy I would be happy to drop (litterally!), especially the weight! Got enough to deal with in the G70

But to suggest wholesale that "when users compare products live, they choose the open product over the closed one" is utter rubbish. Or I would be defending my G70 as a 'niche' product and you would be ALL using soft arrangers!

Open keyboards have (potentially) the best SOUNDS. And that, my friends is IT. They don't have the best OS, they don't have the best layout (some of them have no layout at all ) they don't have the best live ease of use, they don't have much affordability (especially if you want something that IS integrated well) they don't have much content of any quality when bought, so budget for what? maybe at least another thousand or so before it DOES sound better than a T3 (conservatively a thousand dollars!)...

Doesn't seem much of a bargain.

For now (I do expect that open systems will EVENTUALLY draw equal with closed for ease of use), I'll stick to using my computers when I want to hear high quality VSTi sounds and I'll stick to closed keyboards when I want ease of use.

Now, I'm going to sleep... Wake me up when open keyboards have figured out how to work as well as closed ones, will you?

Hi Rikki.

Yeah, the setup I have on my V-Machine right now should be able to do that just by loading the SF2 file straight into the Sample Playback VSTi I'm running.

I'm using Sample Lord and it supports GM standards. http://www.samplelord.com

If you have a GM SF2 file you want me to load up on it to verify this, just let me know. I don't use my V-Machine in that way but loading a GM SF2 file should be all that's need.

Regards
James.

Oops, woke up early!

Remind me again about any soundfont GM set that even comes CLOSE to a TOTL arranger's sound set, will you?

Hi Diki
The statement (Why is it that when users compare products live, they choose the open product over the closed one?) is probably not worded as well as it could be, so take 2

When users compare keyboards live they choose what suits them, and when open and closed keyboards are compared, (Remember only about 1% would know there was a difference between open and closed keyboards) some choose a Wersi, some a T3 others a Korg etc.
Now if open keyboards were as bad as you say, why would people choose to purchase an open keyboard when they could have one of the closed keyboards next door to it, the reason is quite simple, THEY prefer it, and that you don�t is an irrelevance as not everybody wants the same as YOU.

As for live play, you will be saying next that you know exactly how a Bugatti Veyron drives and feels because you have seen it on a video, where as in truth you haven�t a clue because you haven�t tried it, just like you haven�t a clue how an open keyboard performs live, so stop pretending that you do. (Unless of cause you have secretly tried an open keyboard that is)

Remember your ONE person with likes and dislikes, which is fine, but stop keep trying to put it over as if everybody else thinks the same as you, because they DONT. (This fact may upset you, but �THAT�S LIFE�)

Regards

Bill

Any ? There are quite a few, try google.

Here's one I've used and it's very good.
http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail.asp?Item=GMWavetable250Meg

I'm sorry, but sales figures don't lie...

There are a LOT more people that think like I do than think like you (what open arranger, WS and groovebox are YOU using, anyway? Oh, that's right, Bill. The ONLY one that makes ANY effort at making the open process easy and user transparent!).

When open hardware keyboards outsell hardware closed ones, then you'll have every right to consider my opinion that of the minority. In the meantime, you can continue to merely consider us fools, for choosing something that achieves a goal easily, rather than taking the hard way...

If we use that logic, workstations are easyer to use than arrangers because more people buy workstations.

More pros buy workstations, but perhaps more home users buy arrangers...remember, we must count the Casio, Yamaha, and now, Roland, low end arrangers as well.

Any keyboard with an auto accompaniment is considered an arranger, n'est-ce pas?

So, perhaps by that correlation, there were probably quite a few more "arrangers" sold than "workstations"....have you considered that aspect?

And...perhaps to some pros, a workstation is actually easier to use than one of those icky old home arrangers.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-27-2009).]

Diki.

I totally respect your opinion, but I think your getting a little carried away with yourself.

No open keyboard will sound like a cheap CASIO, it will sound exactly like the VSTi will so I have no idea where you are pulling all that from. Same goes for the sound they come with, there is no requirements to balance any sounds in a VSTi. A VSTi is as complete instrument and it comes just as professionally put together as a closed keyboard does. Quite often the sound designers behind VSTi's are the exact same people behind the closed keyboards. Just look at Eric Persing, owner of Spectrasonics. He's a Roland sound designer who now owns one of the best VSTi companies in the world.

Millions of people use VSTi's everyday right now to make music and that number is growing extremely fast and accelerating. To understand what is coming you need to look at the past. Just look at AKAI for example. They where GOD's in the Sampler world and the S-Series sampler pretty much shaped the history of music in the 80's and 90's. VSTi's killed that off and now look at what they mainly make, VSTi Controllers.

SM Pro Audio, Lionstracs, Open labs and Muse Research are currently the only 4 in the world producing Open Keyboards / Systems for running VSTi's away from the PC, so this is something very new which is geared towards the millions of VSTi users that already exist and who are fed up with the trouble and workflow of a PC. Like all new things there will be those who see the benefits and jump to it like a duck to water, and then there will others who stick their head in the sand. But if there is one obvious truth then the answer to that is in the last 10 years and how quickly VSTi's have caught on and changed the way we make music forever.

So regardless of what you want mate, open keyboards and VSTi's are the future of music so you can stick your head in the sand or open your mind.

Or in time will you be this far disconnected from the NOW. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttRL8d039s

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-27-2009).]

OT but I'm just happy to see that Ian spelled "pros" the way it should be spelled instead of "pro's" which seems to be the preferred spelling of most SZers.

Thank you, Ian. There's still hope.

Please proceed, guys...

Regards

Taike



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Bo pen nyang.