Thanks Ian

I was always a bit leery of touchscreens as well, preferring hardware buttons, but I have to give credit where it's due, with both the Roland and Korg touchies seemingly unstoppable, and even after hundreds of hours of use they just seem to keep on working.

So maybe touchscreen technology has them (touchscreens) at the nearly unbreakable stage??? Which they would HAVE to be, for this to work.

Dennis

Well, for one thing, few enough of us even want to use a G70 as an arranger, because of the weight And, for most musicians, they never even SAW a G70... they were sold (at least in the US) in Mom and Pop piano stores and not through regular MI music stores. And were incredibly rare even in those. Then you might also consider the snobbery of most keyboard players, who tend to dismiss arrangers as 'hobby' and home keyboards.

And then finally, there is the same issue that affects open keyboard fanboys... the thought that something that 'potentially' has much greater capabilities than a simple keyboard MUST be better for live use

Oh, and someone that has bought a MoXS is no more a 'power' user of keyboards than someone with an open keyboard (I've heard users of both suck royally! But I've heard a lot of arranger users suck too. Plenty of sucking to go around ). It all depends on HOW WELL the keyboard suits the task, and how difficult the keyboard makes it to achieve the task.

The main difference I see between arrangers and WS's is the priority they give to making contemporary pop music. Arrangers tend to lean towards acoustic and older synth styles, WS's tend towards hiphop and modern dance musics. One is more loop oriented, one is more classic pop and jazz structure oriented (fills, intros, etc.).

But both are focused towards a goal. The open keyboard, by its' very nature, seems a master of nothing. There is a LOT more to a keyboard than just its' sounds. But so far, most open keyboards consider the hosting of the sounds their main priority, and leave an easy to operate OS in the hands of the VSTi designers, who by and large design VSTi's with a slant towards studio flexibility, NOT live ease of use.

I don't begrudge anyone their own choice in what they use, and FOR THEM, it may indeed be the best thing ever. But I have gotten VERY weary of listening to the uncritical fanboy gushings of those that assume that, because 'potentially', an open keyboard OUGHT to be the 'one ring to rule them all', it already IS.

Enlighten me, genesys... Which open keyboard are YOU using these days? Would you gig live on it, as your sole keyboard..? Would you even DARE to go to a pickup gig without knowing what you might be asked to do with an open keyboard?

Do you even OWN an open keyboard?

Diki: “Oh, and someone that has bought a MoXS is no more a 'power' user of keyboards than someone with an open keyboard (I've heard users of both suck royally! But I've heard a lot of arranger users suck too. Plenty of sucking to go around ). It all depends on HOW WELL the keyboard suits the task, and how difficult the keyboard makes it to achieve the task.”

I think you are finally getting there.
Except that the sucking is more about the user than the machine.
Some people may gravitate to a certain OS and other may not.
Most persons here like and perform well with the Yamaha OS but, there are others like you who like and perform well with the Roland OS (can someone say Mac v. PC).
However, there are some who suck on a Yamaha and a Roland.

And, again no keyboard is 100% perfect so what people do, whether they know or not, is to prioritize what is important to them and make compromises.

The G70 is heavy but because you like the way it operates and the sounds, you compromise and use it any way.
Although the S900 is toy-looking and only have 61 keys, some people compromise and get it because they like the way it operates and the sounds.

Although an open keyboard forces one to get sounds and styles from third parties, some persons compromises because they like the convenience of having their studio and live set-up integrated in one keyboard.

OH and I use a Gem Genesys which has the concept of integration. I can use it in a band, easily tweak sounds, create styles, record audio and use as a OMB with relative ease.

So when I am in the market for a keyboard, naturally I will consider an open keyboard.

Drooling here....!!!!
That would be seriously cool.

Mackie have a dual touch screen desk which if I won the lotto in the morning, I'd buy one of these puppys fully expanded.



Hi Res here. http://www.mackie.com/home/showimage.html?u=/products/digitalxbus/images/digitalxbus200_front.jpg

Regards
James

So, how about sharing some of your playing with us, and we can hear what it's like to not suck on a Gem Genesys.

Or is this all just tech talk and little else?

Ian the Curious

Frankly I’m surprised anyone wastes their money on a Groove X6 and/or a Mediastation...not because they’re hard to demo and there’s nowhere to use the accompaniments, but for another bigger reason: why spend a fortune on something you can make yourself?

You buy a bunch of old VSTs and a laptop and the accompaniment engine from a PSR-620, then get someone who has a rudimentary grasp of ergonomics to design a case that won't fall apart if you move it....and weighs about as much as a horse. Add some pitch and modulation wheels, and a bunch of knobs and sliders, then top the whole thing off with some flashy red paint.

Presto, a Mediastation and/or Groove X6 for about $100.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-28-2009).]

Just talk... The GEM Genesys is no more open than a T3

Once more, only the fanboys with no experience at all are praising these things, while those that DO have them (and sell them) give the ACTUAL skinny on whether the 'potential' lives up to real world expectations.

So far, we have heard from Dennis about the many problems using the MS live, and then we haven't heard anything but pretty naff demos from those that aren't as prepared to criticize their own leap of faith, and blame their sucky music on the tool they chose to execute it on

Personally, I have absolutely NO doubt whatsoever that this tiny handful of members here that ARE willing to demonstrate how bad the MS sounded in THEIR hands would produce something FAR more professional if they had chosen a T3/PA2X/E80 instead. None whatsoever.

Sucking has got a LOT more to do with the keyboard you use than you are willing to admit, genesys... If it STARTS OUT with a shitty soundset and shitty styles, and you have to do everything yourself just to get it to sound on a par with a T3 OOTB, you had BETTER be one of those handful of players worldwide that IS capable of voicing a TOTL arranger, and capable of making your own styles as good as the TOTL arrangers' ROM styles.

Somehow, I don't see you as one of those people... Your choice of a closed keyboard shows you already acknowledge that you can't do it yourself. Why do you keep attacking me when I ask for the very thing that WOULD make using an open keyboard possible for you? It's not like I'm asking for them to DROP the open features... just START OUT with an already balanced and comprehensive sound and style set a la PA2/T3, and THEN add the open features. And 'keep it simple, stupid'! Live, the speed and ease of doing anything has EVERYTHING to do with whether you suck onstage or not. A great player can't PLAY his way out of not being able to get to a parameter he wants in sufficient time to use it...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-28-2009).]

Eventhough a valid argument is put forth that the arranger is much more suited to spontaneous situations, and I agree, there are many professional gigs that do not require that kind of dexterity. I play arrangers mostly, but have taken my Receptor out too, to take advantage of the superior sounds of my VSTi's.

Now, granted, I choose what I play, and when, but since the open keyboards are much more integrated than a controller keyboard and a Receptor, surely there is a place for them in today's music scene.

Trouble with using an open keyboard or module with an arranger is that many of them lack much flexibility in the MIDI routing and header setup info...

I am seriously considering a V-Machine when the Core Duo version drops, but I am lucky in that my G70's Part routing and MIDI send filters are quite extensive.

The better these things get, the more important it is going to be for arranger users to scream loudly about how bad most of their MIDI flexibility has gotten in the last few years...

Oh, and Bernie, I completely agree. I don't say there is NEVER a good use for an open keyboard live... just that the vast majority of arranger users need good live flexibility (or we would already be using WS's ). If you have the luxury of knowing in advance EXACTLY what you are going to need 100% of the time, an open keyboard might be just the thing.

But there's a REASON we are all here on an arranger forum... most of us have already figured out that what we need in a live keyboard is an arranger. Not a WS, not an open keyboard. No doubt there's a forum for people that have worked out that what THEY need in a keyboard is what an open keyboard provides. But so far, IMO, the open keyboard has yet to produce a mature arranger. Still in its' infancy, I regret...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-28-2009).]

Never said that the Gem Genisys was an open keyboard. It just integrates the features of a workstation and arranger. Same thing with the Korg PA2x pro.


The instrument does play a part in how good you can sound but IMO it does not and should not play a part in someone sucking. With today’s keyboards regardless of which one you have it is all about compromising and figuring out workarounds. As the Yamaha fans have shown, just because a keyboard does not have 76 keys does not means you must suck.
Sucking really has to do more with the person than the instrument; as you Diki have demonstrated. You are very good and proficient on the G70. But remember a member left the forum after he posted music done on the G70 where you essentially thought it sucked.

Same instrument different results.

And, the trick in making your own styles is not for them to sounds like a factory style, but to make it where it would best suit your particular style of playing and the type of music you play.

The type of keyboard you are advocating is already hear. It is the Korg PA2x pro.

If you are saying that people can not make their own styles and would not be able to get VSTs to work with styles, what would be the benefit of having open expandability on a content driven keyboard where the user can not use the open potion of the keyboard.

For the minuscule amount of editing that you say people are able to do, the Korg PA2x pro or the Gem Genesys provides users with enough to keep them busy.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-28-2009).]

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-28-2009).]