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#269464 - 08/19/09 10:55 PM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi,
I think it would be great if they could be loaded up with the type of styles ( & sounds required ) that the user wanted ie
jazz, swing, country or dance, rap whatever, for the youngsters, oriental for those that want it.

I've never used an oriental style or a rap style, doubt the kids would use a vienese waltz.

For years they've tried to please everyone with a mish mash of styles.

Will they survive, time will tell.
best wishes
Rikki


p.s
One thing I'd luv to see is an onboard phrase library , so that it would make it easier to create user styles, something along the lines of Technics Easy Composer.
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#269465 - 08/20/09 01:10 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by rikkisbears:
Hi,


p.s
One thing I'd luv to see is an onboard phrase library , so that it would make it easier to create user styles, something along the lines of Technics Easy Composer.

http://www.wersiclub.co.uk/Rhythm%20Designer%20-%20English%20Manual.pdf
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#269466 - 08/20/09 02:26 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Bill,
very interesting. Can't be tempted though, no Wersi's in Aust. unless specially imported.

With the Technics, ( from memory)I was actually able to create a complete style part ie the 5 instruments, plus bass, & drums. If I remember correctly the drums were split into, bass drum patterns, snare patterns, hihats . In short you could even create new drum patterns quite easily .

You just kept scrolling thru various tracks till you got something that suited.
Could have been better set out, but it was simple.
best wishes
rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by abacus:
[B]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#269467 - 08/20/09 03:44 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
One thing everyone has to realize is that arranger manufacturers (and keyboard makers in general), have primarily one thing as their first concern and that is $$$.

Having a modular based system where you can get the styles you want on the same arranger would not bring them as much money as making you buy a new hardware board.

Take for example the Roland GW8. They have the latten version (hardware), the East European version (hardware) and the Asian version (hardware).
Why didnt they make one master keyboard and have the ethnic sounds and styles as plugins?

Also look at some of the other brands that have oriental versions (hardware) of their arrangers.

It is better for the arranger manufacturers to sell a hardware unit than just and additional sound and style set.
_________________________
TTG

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#269468 - 08/20/09 05:31 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The hardware-led business is unsustainable in its present form. Simple as that.

The problem is the hardware sale is a rare one-off. Take myself as an example. I've average 8 to 10 years from every Roland 'board I've bought over the last twenty-odd years. Few are kissing 2000 goodbye every year for a new TOTL arranger with nothing meaningfully new to offer. Sure, there are a few suckers who've upgraded T1, T2, T3, but even they must acknowledge the law of diminishing returns has kicked in. All the manufacturers have reached a plateau of functionality it's hard to see moving beyond.

In such a stagnant market, the up-sell becomes more important, generating revenue from the existing user base. Diki has floated the idea on the Roland Arranger forums of manufacturers shifting focus, and offering an iTunes-style model of new styles/voices/features being offered via an online store. Why it hasn't happened before now has me scratching my head. It's so obvious and, frankly, there's no other way I can see in the present climate of generating sustainable revenues.

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#269469 - 08/20/09 05:37 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
...
What annoys me the most is that, there ARE some pretty hip sounding drum kits, synth basses, etc., in my G70, I KNOW there's a ton of contemporary stuff in a PA2X (not really sure about the Tyros3, but it's got to have at least SOME up to date stuff), but NOBODY is writing styles for these arrangers. Korg have excellent style writing teams for the M3/M50, Roland have personnel for the FantomG, Yamaha for the MoXS loops. Why can't they simply get THOSE guys to do styles for the arrangers? Can't be any harder than doing arps for the WS's.
...


In some cases, there are totally separate teams working on the pro and home market products (arrangers still considered to be home market). It is my understanding that in at least one of the brands you mentioned, the two divisions don't really communicate with each other at all much less do any real collaborating. It has been my observation (keep in mind that I have been on the wholesale side of pro and home keyboard products for quite a few years) that the employees on the pro side look down on the home products division like they are an evil stepchild. The pro reps want nothing to do with them, the designers of the pro gear want nothing to do with them. I think I'm a little odd because I share equal enthusiasm for both types of products.

So maybe one of the reasons things are the way they are is that the manufacturers themselves aren't real sure of what to make of an arranger instrument. Just a thought.

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-20-2009).]

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#269470 - 08/20/09 05:45 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by rikkisbears:
Hi Bill,
very interesting. Can't be tempted though, no Wersi's in Aust. unless specially imported.

With the Technics, ( from memory)I was actually able to create a complete style part ie the 5 instruments, plus bass, & drums. If I remember correctly the drums were split into, bass drum patterns, snare patterns, hihats . In short you could even create new drum patterns quite easily .

You just kept scrolling thru various tracks till you got something that suited.
Could have been better set out, but it was simple.
best wishes
rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by abacus:
[B]


Hi rikki,

Just curious and not trying to be a smart aleck. In the amount of time it takes to scroll through the many solo kick drum, snare, hi hat, bass and chordal phrases and stick them together into something useful, couldn't a person actually create their own personal rhythm and accompaniment tracks? The answer may be "not if the person doesn't know how to play drums". But my thought is in the amount of time spent reading the manual and learning how to use the style creation features, one could just as easily learn how to create their own drum beats, etc. and then have a style that is totally unique.

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

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#269471 - 08/20/09 08:05 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamaster:


In such a stagnant market, the up-sell becomes more important, generating revenue from the existing user base. Diki has floated the idea on the Roland Arranger forums of manufacturers shifting focus, and offering an iTunes-style model of new styles/voices/features being offered via an online store. Why it hasn't happened before now has me scratching my head. It's so obvious and, frankly, there's no other way I can see in the present climate of generating sustainable revenues.


Actually both Yamaha and Wersi have been doing this for some time, (Wersi being software has a big advantage here) with Yamaha further upping their game with the T3, other manufactures havent bothered for some reason, so their owners have to rely mainly on 3rd party support developers.
One of the reasons may be the limited amount of Ram and Rom space on current boards, (And loading time of course) but all manufactures could overcome this if they wanted to. (If it was hardware it would probably have to be a new board though)
Anyway keep the pressure on and who knows.
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#269472 - 08/20/09 08:41 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
...other manufactures havent bothered for some reason, so their owners have to rely mainly on 3rd party support developers. One of the reasons may be the limited amount of Ram and Rom space on current boards, (And loading time of course...


Roland chose the SRX route, which offers exceptional quality - and NO load waits - but it's still, necessarily, a hardware solution limited to voice expansion. They were very short-sighted in abandoning the style aftermarket, especially when the Gold styles of the E-80 V2 upgrade proved they are still peerless at creating them.

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#269473 - 08/20/09 09:53 AM Re: Survival or Death to the Arranger keyboard ?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
Unfortunately, with piracy so rampant, what is their incentive to make them? They certainly aren't cheap to make. Without new product in the MOTL-TOTL range, why would Roland want to LOSE money (or break even or only make a small profit ) keeping our interest up in a product they no longer sell?

I can see the point doing this so that current owners will happily migrate to a new Roland, knowing that after sales support in the styles dept. is excellent. But when you don't HAVE any new product, and seem content to let owners that want to upgrade go to another manufacturer rather than bring any new models out. Five YEARS between models is simply too long when you compare it to other production cycles.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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