New Roland announcement: http://www.roland.co.uk/articles/default.aspx?c=41&a=10424

I wouldn't get your arranger hopes up...

With the reduction in the number of Roland Arrangers (Although the E series are still showing on the UK site) and plenty being launched by the competition, the possibility is there. (So no harm in hoping)

Just read this on Roland UK Website

Roland Connect 2009
On September 1, 2009, Roland will launch a new and innovative lineup of musical products via a unique web exhibition called Roland Connect 2009.


The virtual event will debut some exciting new products — from a professional stage instrument to desktop home-studio gear — covering a wide range of musical genres and product categories.


The site will be officially opened to the public on September 1, 2009.

Well, I'm buying a backup G70 this weekend (used), so I guess I'd better keep my fingers crossed...

But if Roland push the TOTL up into Audya and T3 price range, I think, unless it is SO technologically and sonically advanced that I can't resist (and I'm a very good resistor!), the G70 might be my last arranger for a VERY long time.

Probably a good job I like it so much, eh?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-07-2009).]

It is up already, and if you wait for the animations to finish, you can download a Roland clock for your PC. :-)
http://www.rolandconnect.com


------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

if we get an arranger with AUDYA realism on drums, guitars, bass, (audio loops)
GREAT authentic styles (including latin) and
ROLAND build quality...

...i'm ALL OVER IT !!!

Diki, did you buy Vince's G70?

Yep... I have got to the point where, if no further Roland's appear, I won't be jumping ship for anything out currently.

Sorry, but the inability to edit audio based arrangers makes them a no go for me. I am looking not so much for realism (although, especially in the drums department, the G70 can compete with much of the Ketron and Korg's, certainly sufficient for live use), but more for individuality... With audio loops, you can't change a rock kit to a brush kit, an electric guitar to an acoustic, or any of the things that can radically (or subtly) change one style into another.

Roland make this process the easiest of any arranger manufacturer, so, while it seems unlikely that any new TOTL product is in the pipe (Roland would be unlikely to launch this now, rather than back at NAMM), their current, discontinued product STILL has the edge at this essential feature (at least, for me!).

At this point, it seems prudent to have a backup, although I have gigged constantly for four solid years without one. I cannot envision the horror of HAVING to move to another platform should my G70 get stolen, damaged or just plain break down. What are my options in a 76? PA2Xpro... I have played this, not THAT impressed, far too few fills. Audya... too expensive, too preset. Yamaha... no 76's. Guess I HAVE to get a spare!

I totally agree with you....The G70 is simply unbeatable...and for what we can pick up G70's for...talk about "bang for the buck"...There is no better deal...

I could never figure out why folks dismissed the G70 so quickly...and lose money on it too....

Side by side ..The G70 is considerably the better keyboard over the E80...Keys, range, and to me the G70 sounds better...(there is a difference)...The one thing the E80 does better than the G70...They reworked the GM table for SMF's...No tweaking is needed , where we automatically select the grand X and V drums on the G70..The E80 already covers the change with it's selected tones..

The E80 offers me just enough of a difference to keep me content and is the perfect back up too..

I too, can wait till Roland releases the new top model...and yes I know it is coming and have insight why they are delaying the launch..

I would be willing to bet that half the G70 detractors have never even played one! And the other half come from OS's so alien (as moving from a Roland to any other would be for me) that overcoming the hurdles puts too much of a damper on the enjoyment of the sounds.

I really feel the G70 is the arranger for anyone that plays extensively with live musicians. Not only will it hold it's head up soundwise with any other WS out there, it'll do it faster, easier and with less stress on the gig if you have to set up sounds for a song. THEN you can take it out on a solo or duo gig, and have drums that sound as live as your real drummer, and have a huge library of different rhythms you can use (unlike the limited library of audio loop arrangers).

Right now, with great condition used G70's floating around the $2000 mark, bang for the buck rests squarely with one of these. Only a couple of hundred more than an S900, 76 pro keys and construction (and yes, weight! ), a piano to die for (still none better in an arrger, IMO), the best B3 sim in an arranger, and a huge modern and legacy library.

Glad I got mine...

Diki,

i too love my G-70 lots,
but i find myself using my Ketron XD3 more and more...
it just "cuts" through my PA better
it's gotta be those drums...
the proof is on my dancefloor :-)

question:
why another G-70?
why not the GW-8 JUST for backup
it's ALOT lighter and CHEAPER,

Because...a back up can soon become the primary..and who would rather have a GW-8 over a G70 for your main keyboard...Not I..

i was thinking a 1-night backup, just in case
but i guess then you gotta fix your broken one, etc,

my backup/main is my XD3

so between my G-70 AND my Ketron module, i'm good to go... :-)

Something's in the air with Roland.....I think. I thought I'd take another look at the GW-8 but now I can't find one in any of the stores. They used to give them out as party favors when you shopped there. Now they're as rare as covered wagons. Maybe they're changing their whole arranger lineup? Yeah, and fish fly in a full moon!

Lucky

I'm on the brink of buying a new KORG PA2XPRO.I think I'll wait and see what Roland have to offer.
It would be great if they released a new 76 note arranger. I would expect it to be expensive but more than likely well worth the price.

Frank

You guys really think Roland will announce a TOTL aranger in Sept...and there is no rumers about it???

I would be very surprized indeed...

But..It would be cool.

Lee S.

I had a GW-8 for a while. Although, technically, it is style compatible with the G70, there's a LOT of work involved in getting them to sound right. The lack of ANY onboard style editing tools other than mere volume and pan controls for style parts makes adjusting the part sounds and kits (they are not 100% compatible) a trial and erro process in the G70.... transfer style to GW-8, listen to what you want changed, go back to G70, make adjustments, transfer to GW-8, listen to adjustments (finally), go back to G70, make more adjustments, transfer to GW-8, listen again, and so on...

Sorry, but my idea of a backup is something you load the EXACT same data in as is in your main axe, and go out and gig. Not spend months so it can do that...

so Diki,

everyone that uses an AUDYA should just go out and buy another one just for backup? :-)

They may have to, given the reports of problems with them we have heard

Bottom line is, if you use something other than a duplicate of what your primary arranger is, you DOUBLE your preparation workload. Who, in their right minds, wants to do that? If I've GOT double the time available, I've got time to prepare DOUBLE the tunes...

There's no way to transfer all the Audya's audio loop rhythms to any other arranger. You want to work with those, you GOT to have another Audya (or a nearby dealer with a spare!). Little chance of either, IMO...

and little chance of ever seeing someone with 2 AUDYAS,

$10,000 is quite a hefty amount to spend

if AUDYA was MY main keyboard, my XD3 would do fine as a backup

is an XD3 as good as AUDYA?
of course not, but it IS what i currently use for 70% of what i play (the other 30% coming from my G-70),

so if the XD3 is my "main" board NOW, why not a backup, when a better one comes around?



[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 08-12-2009).]

I totally agree with you both. If it wasn't for my issues with the Touch Screen and having to use it to edit items to get favorites setup, this board would have been a definite keeper for me. The sounds and playability is absolutely fantastic. I'm going to miss those Roland Sounds. If I had someone on the books to just program things for me (as some other blind musicians seem to do when they get to the top), Diki and I both agreed this would have been a perfect live rig for me.

I really wanted to try it; I did - even though I had to buy one first; I took a bit of a loss, but it was worth it. I'm really missing it already.

I now am goint a different route and moving away from the arrangers for now. I'll still be monitoring the news and topics around here just to keep up.

Best
Vince

There'll be no news from Roland until the wrangling over the moving of production from Italy to China is resolved - that's the real reason for the "radio silence" about arrangers from Roland since late last year.

Do you mean they in the process of are moving production to China or just wrangling about whether they are going to?

Lee S.

Well since Seamaster has brought it to the surface..I may as well let you all know what I was told...It was suppose to be confidential..but others have mentioned it already...

I have a different spin on the delay...

It is common knowledge, workmanship at the Chinese facilities (Not just Roland's) is sub standard compared to the Italy plants..

Roland is trying to close out commitments with China, and restore Italy locations...or use Japan plants again...
Hopefully by the end of this year...

Now I hope this leak does not stop my contact from "leaking" to me..

i just hope a kick @ss Roland arranger leaks out this September

we need THE TOTL arranger with all the bells and whistles so that all other manufacturers can up their game AND lower their price...

so far the AUDYA is THE ONLY arranger i would buy to "replace" or add to my G-70

Returning production to Europe is going to make the next Roland TOTL (if and when it appears) certainly no bargain...

If $4500+ is the new bellwether for TOTL arrangers (while their WS brethren remain roughly at their price points), how many of us are going to be able to go down that path. I, for one, haven't seen a 25% increase in my business this year (the increase over the old $3500 mark)...

The thing is, I don't see any new or remarkable technology from Roland even on their WS's. How anything new is going to trickle down (the usual direction for innovation) from the WS's beats me. About the only thing of any note is the voice allocation system from the ARX Brass board. Hardly groundbreaking. And the SA type voices on the new Atelier, which have failed to impress me, at least.

There are many 'refinements' that could be made to the G70's OS (see the New Features forum at Roland-arranger.com for a compendium) but none of them would significantly change the G70 into something worth a grand more...

Me, in the meantime, would HAPPILY pay quite a premium (at least $100) for a new OS that SERIOUSLY addresses all the remaining OS clunkers.

The reason why arranger manufacturers have a high price on their arrangers as opposed to workstations is because they know arranger users have been paying a high price already.


They know from their research and from past experiences, the market for arrangers just have to have the newest and latest arranger and price is not an option.

Until their figures tell them otherwise, they will continue to do the same thing.


Just look at how many persons who went for the T3 when there was the T2 that did the same thing.

Yamaha certainly fall into that category to me with their incremental upgrades in each model. They have this down to a fine art at this stage too which is why they are the biggest arranger keyboard manufacturer in the world.

The secret sauce to making Yamaha arrangers is based on two things.

1: Knowing that the majority of arranger users cannot program, nor do they have any interest in doing that or creating their own styles. Because of that it's easier to make the keyboard simple to operate and so the focus should be on making it sound fantastic out of the box and give enough to allow users to customise the keyboard so that they can access what it offers quick and easy. In other words it's all about the short term wow factor.

2: Because of number 1 above, the same people will never notice that each keyboard only offers an incremental upgrade because when Yamaha add something like MEGA Voices these people see this as an entirely new feature and not what it really is, just an updated sample library that could have been sold for $100 to them.

If you were to tie down the average Yamaha T3 user and to show them how much more a KORG Pa2X can do that the T3 can't, they would just switch their brain off because they don't understand all the technology and how far everything has moved on.

Oddly enough, this is what the majority want, which is why Yamaha are the biggest sellers of Arranger keyboards in the world.

My 2 Cents.

James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-15-2009).]

James that is the best post I have read here in years....truer words were never spoken. Well said.

Yes I can't agree more with James. In the past I also didn't look further then Yamaha. Now I own a Korg and can't be more happy. No more Yamaha for me.

The trouble with this analogy is that it fails to explain why the TOTL arrangers have just seen something like a 25-30% increase in price (T2 used to be roughly $3500 street price, now it's supposedly pushing $4500), similar with Ketron, yet the MOTL hasn't seen this jump. The S950 is going to be only $200 or so more than the S900.

Now, given that both of these model jumps only represent a minor upgrade in technology, why the 30% for the TOTL and only 10% for the MOTL? One would have thought, IF having your customers over a barrel explained this, the MOTL could be as severely inflated.

Personally, I think it comes about because Yamaha are perhaps realizing the light at the end of the tunnel is the train coming the other way! As arrangers become less and less relevant to today's musician, at least for the TOTL, they are prepared to trade volume for profit. Sell 30% fewer arrangers at 30% more, you come out about the same. The only problem with this is that it is a death spiral. Anyone that watched the rapid increase in home organs' prices in the seventies and eighties as the market dwindled can't help but recognize the same trend here.

Yamaha's market research quite possibly point out to them that, at the MOTL price point, a 30% price increase will result in a greater than 30% drop in sales, as budget arranger users are on a MUCH tighter budget, but, at the TOTL, the sky's the limit. It appears they have heard of the saying "A fool and his (retirement) money are soon parted"...

The puzzling thing is, haven't Yamaha owners noticed, it only takes a while (six months to a year) before quality conversions of newer styles from the latest model become ported over for the older model..? If new styles truly ARE the reason T2 players upgrade, why don't they just wait? In fact, I believe that many ARE waiting... I certainly haven't seen all that many posts by T2 owners posting that they absolutely HAD to have the T3. At least, those competent enough to already play well and gig steady.

The 'home' user, though... he's ripe for the fleecing. If you can't PLAY any better, there's only one way you can convince yourself you are getting better, isn't there?

Thank God, at least the MOTL players recognize that price SHOULD reflect capability

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-15-2009).]

James I agree with your statement!! Having "Entertained" myself with a T3 for a weekend I quickly realized how much better the PA2x was!!When consider the asking price for the T3 .... Wow!
There is a clothing retailer in the NY area that has used this slogan for as long as I can remember "An Educated Consumer Is Our Best Customer"!! I think Korg may want to "borrow" this slogan. Roland could use it also. For many years if I purchased an arranger or drum machine it had to be Roland. With the introduction of the G70 they decided to market the KB in "Home Style Piano Stores" Wow ... that really worked! Hope someone got fired for that decision.
As I have stated befoe I had a G70, great arranger but no "Break Fill" to me this is a deal breaker .. why because there is a PA2x. If not I would still own the G70.
There has been a G70 sitting in the Sam Ash in LI for alsmost 2 years! When I demo'd the T3 I went over to the G70 and played and said to myself ... Dam if this doesn"t sound "Better" than the T3!!
Well I'm rambling here ...

[This message has been edited by JCkeeys (edited 08-15-2009).]

The 'home' user, though... he's ripe for the fleecing. If you can't PLAY any better, there's only one way you can convince yourself you are getting better, isn't there?

i made a good living with a florida organ retailer for years doin the above, the new organ would
have that style that made you a better player. and you just had to have it. i see the "keyboard business" hasn't changed.

JC, if it came down to the 'Fills' issue, personally, I would be balancing the lack of a Break/Fill with the fact that the Korg has two fills per style (and a break/fill) with the Roland's SIX fills and a Break (but no fill).

Transitions between style divisions has always felt less smooth and musical on the Korg's to me because of this lack. Two USED to be sufficient for a two Variation arranger, but in the land of four Variations, four Fills is an absolute necessity, and six (or more) is preferable. Two are, IMO, completely unacceptable.

The thing is, it's easy to re-task Intro's as Break/Fills (and gain up to four, rather than the one), but you can't easily use Intros as Fills (unless you are the kind of player that ALWAYS cues up your fills a bar in advance).

Now, don't get me wrong, there is MUCH to like about in the PA2Xpro. But, just as you can't do without a B/F, I can't do without smooth fills for ALL transitions. Difference is, on a G70, you CAN make B/F's...

Now I own a Korg for almost a month I don't have any problem with "only" 2 fills.

And yet, strangely, Yamaha, Roland, Ketron, Wersi, even Lionstracs ALL think that you need more than two fills for a four Variation arranger...

Perhaps you don't have a 'problem' with it because you have no choice?

Me, I don't have a 'problem' with no Break/Fills on the Roland. I have worked out a couple of workarounds (hit Break, THEN hit Fill - easy with a footswitch pedal - instant Break/Fill!). But it doesn't mean I wouldn't LIKE one (or four!). There's NO workaround for the lack of four fills on the Korg. And yet, you are happy with it?

Sounds more like defensiveness to me. I don't mind admitting the weaknesses in my G70. And strive to make workarounds for them. But when workarounds don't exist, I'll bitch and moan as good as anyone. Why are you so happy with 66% fewer fills than the competition? I've played a PA2xpro, and the FIRST thing I noticed was how jumpy some of the transitions were, compared to Roland and Yamaha...

I have no opinion either way on the topic of Fills on KORG keyboards but if it helps anyone, don't forget that the you have PAD's on the Pa-Series keyboards that can be used to trigger samples, one shot patterns, or even phrases that follow chord changes.

This applies to both instruments and percussion, so there are options available to function as work-a-rounds if need be.

You can run 4 pads at the same time too.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-15-2009).]

Can you get the Pad to 'Replace' the Variation as well as add to it, James? I don't see how this could really be used to get a proper fill out of a Variation if it can't...

To be honest, I've always been a Roland guy, so I never had Pads on any arranger I have used. They seem like a great thing, if used carefully.

But I still don't see why Korg cling so stubbornly to the 'two fills and a B/F' paradigm for so long (especially as they just went through a major OS revision) while their competition outstrips them on this issue... How hard could it be to add the additional fills to the OS and use AutoFill to address them without even redesigning the panel (so it COULD be an OS refinement rather than a model change)..? Sure, they'd have to reprogram a few styles to demo the feature (and add it to future styles), but simple programming would allow already existing 2Fill styles to play like they do now (Roland's have no problem with older, two fill styles), and 4fill (or six, or sixteen!) styles to use the newer system.

It is, BY FAR, a simpler thing to implement than DNC, yet it remains unaddressed. Were I Korg, this, along with a plethora of new sample sets to make the most out of DNC, would be my main priority to improve the PA2...

No, it's not meant to replace any existing part of a style. They are performance pads that add to your performance and they can be set to sync with the arranger side of the keyboard or not. So all I'm suggesting is that with a little creative usage you could overlay them in a One Shot mode synced with the Styles to simulate a fill. How effective that would be depends on the style I guess.



I'm only guessing here but I would say it's not an issue that needs attention based on the activities I see on KORG Forums. I don't remember anyone ever asking for additional fills, and it's not on the current Pa2X wish list the guys have going over there.

I don't know really, I'm only guessing here based on what I read over on KORG Forums each day.

Regards
James

I am not defensive I only say that after playing almost a month on a Korg I feel no need for more fills. I think that Korg owners don't have to use the fills as much as the Roland and Yamaha owners because the styles of Korg are not as monotonous as the ones on Roland and Yamaha. And I have noticed that many styles on Korg contains mini fill ins.



[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 08-15-2009).]

Which are fine until you play a twelve bar section, or any irregular (non 8 and 16) length structure. Then they start popping up when you DON'T need them.

What I'm talking about is the difference between going from Var4 to Var 1 and Var 4 to Var 4 (or 3). Basically, ONE of those has to have a bad transition, if not both...

Hi Diki,
fills is something I've never been particularly good with ( ie as far as programming)
The PA800 actually has some drum fill pads, so I guess they're designed to play over the top of the variation to give the impression of a fill.

My old DGX fills were nothing more than a drum fill, the rest of the instruments appeared to just keep playing the regular variation pattern with the drum fill.

I was never overly wrapped in some of the KN7 fills. I think it had 8 ?? but some of them were so busy, they didn't blend in either. I suppose it's got a lot to do with how they're programmed.

Extra fills would be great for the Korg, but not a deal breaker for me. It's got too much else to offer.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Can you get the Pad to 'Replace' the Variation as well as add to it, James? I don't see how this could really be used to get a proper fill out of a Variation if it can't...

That I agree

Heres the story on the fills (we have gone over it before).

1) Yes a PA800/PA2XPRO (right out of the box) on some styles (Definetly only some styles...I think ones with guitar tracks in them) if the fill is pressed just anytime will sometimes immediately upon entry trigger a sound that does not seem to fit at that specific time. It can makes things sound a little OFF. This is because it triggers IMMEDIATELY and triggers at that point in the fill (that point in the pattern sequence), not the beginning of the fill. So, depending on the style..and what is at that spot in the fill...it is a problem. Once again only on some styles.

2) If prssed on the downbeat (red indicator on) it never has any issues because the fill starts at the beginning the way it was programmed and sounds fine. Seems to work fine for any variation also.

3) In Release 2.0 of PA800/Pa2XPRO (released this spring) Korg enhanced a programming parameter in style record mode(modify a style or make your own) called 'CUE MODE'. With that Parm, we can now EASILY change a style fill or a variation for that matter to begin on 'Next measure, first measure' = The style element enters at the beginning of the next measure, and begins from the first measure of the new pattern. This is for variations and fills.
So if you make this change...when you press a fill it does not start in the middle of its pattern (and play any sound that may not sound quite ok based on the timing of when you press the fill. I have changed a few styles that I use and it made a big improvement.

4) The trasitions from one variation to another is fine and you don't need a fill neccessarily. Sometimes I use one, sometimes not.

5) The CUE mode has 4 otions in it: Immediate first measure (only for fills), Immediate next measure (Only for fills) Next measure first measure (Fills & Vars), Mext measure current measure (Only on Vars)
So, per style, per style element you can setup whatever you want. This is a PRO workstation, hence, yes, there is LOTS of programming options. I like that.

Comment...Personally I think this area of the board could be a little better right out of the box (and more fills would be nice as well) ...but, with everything it offers I do not find it to be a big deal for me. For me (you may not see it this way) it is not a reason to not get one or change to anything else currently out there.

Lee S.

Yamaha as does other arranger manufacturers realize that the MOTL players are gigging musicians and are the same market like the TOTL WS user.
So price is a factor at that stage. If a person is considering a MOTL arranger, they are looking at price vs features. Now, given that MOTL arrangers today have probably the same or better quality and features than yesterday’s TOTL arrangers, a skillful gigging arranger player is perhaps the major market for the MOTL arranger because they don't have to have everything done for them and are willing to edit to make the arranger sound to their liking.

Just look at how many persons gig with an S900 or a PA 800.
The MS is even going to have MOTL arrangers.
And, I believe that if Roland stays in the arranger business, it will be a MOTL.


You see, before, the gigging musician, in order to get the better sounds and styles, they had to buy the TOTL. Today, now that the MOTL arranger has comparable sounds and styles to yesterday's TOTL, the gigging arranger player does not have to buy a TOTL.
So, the pool of persons left who would buy a TOTL arranger has dwindled and only people who would buy an arranger where price is not an option is left. That is why arranger manufacturers can up the price on the TOTL. But, as you said, that will not last for ever.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 08-15-2009).]

Diki I understand where you are coming from. I would love to have the 4 fills. That's why I "entertained' the T3 I feel the T3 has the perfect setup ... 4 varations ... 4 fills 1 break/fill. Even though I believe the PA "Sounds" better I would have taken the T3 over the PA if the Hamonizer and Vocal side of the T3 was up to "Pro" standards and it's not. That part of the T3 is very weak".

[This message has been edited by JCkeeys (edited 08-16-2009).]