Mike, I think you have got something fundamentally wrong.

As I understand it, you CAN'T use a 'loop kit' to play a MIDI file, only the regular kind of drumkits same as you have in your current arranger...

There are no 'loop kits'. A loop is just that... a recording of a drummer playing a groove, all the sounds mixed up one ONE stereo file. There are going to be hihat hits or ride hits on every single beat, at the same time as snare and kick. You can't separate them out, or send a MIDI note to just one sound.

Now, if I were Ketron, I might have used the kit that the drummer played to make a regular MIDI drum kit sample set, to allow you to modify or replace the loop with minimal timbral change, but no word has been said about this possibility, so I don't have high hopes for this.

The thing that bugs me is that, if you listen to the better drum kit libraries that modern computers can play, EZ Drummer, DFH Superior, BFD, etc., and the MIDI grooves they develop for them, played by real drummers on MIDI drumkits, you can hear that even without going to live loops, you can get drum realism that is amazingly real, amazingly live, and VERY hard to tell it ISN'T a loop...

But with NONE of the loops disadvantages. No editing, no changing kits, or drums within the kit, no changing the 'swing factor' on the style, etc., etc.. It strikes me that, were enough ROM dedicated to a kit with this level of detail and dynamics, you wouldn't NEED loops. ROM memory is a fraction of it's cost from just a few years ago. Surely this is the better, more flexible solution without any drawbacks?

Give these a listen: http://www.toontrack.com/ezdrummer.asp (check out the expansion packs, especially the jazz drums, the Latin Percussion, the Nashville brush and rods kits, and my favorite, the Twisted kit!
http://www.toontrack.com/ny_legacy_vol2.asp
http://www.fxpansion.com/index.php?page=53&tab=148

Bear in mind that most of the demos are geared more to the younger player/producer, but there ARE some for us old farts mixed in..!

I happen to feel that loop technology for drums is a dead end, unless you NEVER mess with your arranger's drums at all. And how many of us have NEVER tried a pattern out with brushes instead of sticks, or turned down (or up!) the reverb, simple basic things like that that you CAN'T do with loops.

I really hope that arrangers don't go down that path wholesale, and reduce us to playing preset patterns whether we like them or not...

Diki, you are correct that it is not possible to access individual sounds within a sampled drum loop. And your idea of including separate samples of the entire kit used in a loop for use in a normal sequence track is a good one.

I disagree that a sequenced drum track can sound identical (you didn't say identical, but implied it I think) to a looped sample of a full kit being played live. The acoustic interaction of the toms, kick, cymbals and snare, and the much higher resolution of quantization in a digital recording versus the much lower ppqn of a sequenced track is what makes the whole looped rhythmic samples within a sequence desirable. On the other hand, will any audience member notice the difference? Pretty unlikely. As Ian mentioned in his comment regarding my link to the Sway file as played from my WK8, it didn't sound as good as the Ketron, Yamaha or Korg (of course the WK8 is also around 10 year older technology but that's another story). The point I want to make here is that the audience just doesn't know the difference. I have considered using the other instrument (from my second link) but seeing as the people I have played for thus far when using just the WK8 were very complimentary as to not only my performance but also the sound, I may save myself the extra little bit of work setting up an additional piece of equipment. Although there is something to be said for personal enjoyment/satisfaction, and the obvious sonic improvement from the other piece of equipment may win and I'll still bring it along.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic if only slightly; Pretty much all of the arranger keyboards available today sound good. Sure a sequence created on one particular brand is going to sound different and possibly not as good when played back on another brand, even when sticking to GM sounds, with a little editing it can sound just as good as the original.

I really think a better comparison to be made is in reference to the feature set of each instrument, panel layout, user interface, etc. This is where the important differences are as far as I am concerned. How easy is it to get around on during performance? How quickly does a new song take to load from the storage device and what are the storage options? How does the keyboard feel, like cheap hollow plastic or something more substantial? What type of recording functions are offered? Etc. And then it is important to realize that there are varying needs for each player, so no one instrument is the answer to everyone's prayers.

I contend that the biggest difference between all of these brands is not the instrument at all. It is the owner of the instrument. Personality and showmanship is where the real difference is. It is unfortunate to me that talent isn't included, not that being a good showman isn't a talent, but I am referring to musical talent or put another way, playing ability. I can hold my own on an acoustic piano or traditional organ, and that ability is transfered to my arranger playing. But the fact is, I get the same great response when I just playback a sequence and walk around the room with a wireless headset and sing to or dance with the audience. So I have learned to leave my playing ability chops at the door when working certain types of gigs and just rely on my good looks .

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

So David...what is the "other instrument" you would use instead of the Casio WK8?

Wow!! who knew? if you really want to make some tips throw on a Chicken Hat also.. But be careful, you don't want to be labeled a KARAOKE artist

I was really hoping for some other opinions before divulging that information. The instrument is nothing I'm selling or otherwise promoting, I am just interested in hearing some honest, un-biased opinions from others. I have my opinion as well, and I kind of like the sound, but then there are things I like about the other brands as well. Personally though I kind of like how the sounds on this instrument are more defined. I don't mean just the fact that they are not buried in reverb. The sounds are sampled a bit more up-front, are less processed sounding (a problem I have with one of the models from the original post) and the fidelity is more dynamically punchy to me. But to each his own. Again, I would just like to hear others opinions.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

I don't really look good in hats. But I have thought about gluing on some chest hair when doing a Tom Jones tune.

One word I should have included in the last paragraph of my prior post along with showmanship is 'entertainment'. It kind of stinks sometimes but the ONLY reason people hire any of us is for the entertainment value. If you are entertaining to a given audience, it doesn't matter if you have a lousy voice, or that you couldn't play your way out of children's sing-a-long, it only matters that you are entertaining. If that means I push play and stand there with my hands in my pants (well OK, I don't typically play those types of gigs)... but you get what I mean.

To be honest, it does bother me that I spent many years learning my craft, both from the playing standpoint and the technical knowledge of keyboard instruments and related products, only to be referred to as a karaoke artist. But a couple of things about that;
First, I still play in two real bands, my four piece traditional jazz group and an 8 piece group that ranges in styles from Reggae, Latin, R&B, jazz, blues, Zydeco, Rock and Roll and whatever else we can think of.
And second, other than doing demos and clinics at dealers, or making online product demo videos and other than demoing in a NAMM or Music Messa booth for the past 20 or so years, I had never used an arranger keyboard for a solo gig until just several months ago when I filled in for a friend. It was very last minute so I didn't have much time to prepare so I used an assortment of smf's I had from a past employer, I found a few styles that could work for a variety of songs and went for it. I enjoyed myself as much as anyone who was there listening to me. There were times that all I did was press the play button and then sing the song. Now I didn't just stand there or even pretend to be playing, I got out in front and joined the crowd, and I had a blast. This is just another form of performing, another from of providing entertainment, that's all. Of course I am proud that I can then turn around and actually play the keyboard without any help from a micro-processor but it is fun to provide entertainment in general no matter how I go about it.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 06-02-2009).]

Well at least you have a good attitude about the business & are not a annoying purist which I can't stand....having blinders on in this business is detrimental IMO as not to let in the world of music will definitly hinder your final product due to the lack of ideas you can peruse. I have always left myself open to all kinds of music which in return has made me a better performer/singer & musician. Stubbornness will hurt you although many don't think so in their own head.
You certainly have a good open outlook, keep it up & enjoy the magic of music!

DP

Thanks for that. I'm with you on the purist thing. Heck, I started piano lessons at age 5 and grew up on acoustic piano and Hammond organ. And the first job I had after college (a piano performance major) was selling acoustic pianos and Hammond organs. I visited multiple acoustic piano manufacturing plants and learned the ins and outs of acoustic piano building in order to be more knowledgeable while talking to customers. As good as some of the digital pianos have gotten in recent years, there is still nothing like playing a real acoustic instrument or hearing a real live band. I love real acoustic instruments being played by accomplished musicians, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what can be done through the miracle of digital electronics and welcome the technology. So I consider myself an 'enlightened purist'.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

It's possible.

I agree...I think it was wrong for me to say "audio-loop drum kit". What I meant and should have said was, "audio sampled drum kit".

Here's where I was coming from; a while back I emailed Ketron support and asked the question, "With the Audya playing a SMF, can I substitute the midi standard drum kit with one of the new audio drum kits?"

They answered, "Yes!"

So now I'm thinking that they have a drum kit chuck full of live audio samples. I know that GEM did something similar with their R.A.S.S. (Real Audio Synchro Style) technology. They used audio samples that were triggered with midi events. They offered some "Live Drum Kit" RASS files that sounded quite good.

Then when the Audya manual was released and I saw this on page 47:



I guess I was thinking that it would be possible to use Audio Drums in SMFs and I was very curious to hear samples of that. But like you said, maybe I'm not quite getting it. Maybe I'm thinking something is there and it's not.

Dave, you just let me know when you want me to Photoshop a nice chicken hat on ya. You can use the picture for your next business cards (free of charge).

-mike

Scratch what I said above about the Audya Midi Remix. I'm re-reading the manual and it does not use the original midi events to trigger the new audio drums. It replaces the original midi drum track with whatever style you selected which could include an audio drum track.

That's not what I was thinking about.


-mike