http://tiny.cc/gDhn3

Lest we think that arrangers are ONLY for us old farts

First thing I think I've seen on the T3 where the sampler was being used at all...

I cant even watch this idiot....

what a joke sheeeesh!

My SWF player won't play this file, Diki.

Is this on YouTube, and do you have a link?

Ian

I finally got it to play…… very interesting……. Well, not all of us are old farts. I’m 33 years old and I’ve been playing arrangers for 13 years. It’s funny because you do see young generation using the T3 in the video but there French. I think there is just something’s that the younger American generation just won’t understand or use.

Well on another note, it seems that the French don’t mind using this overpriced, low quality arranger. I don’t think he said, “Je ne gaspillerai jamais ce beaucoup d'argent sur un clavier en plastique encore”, Oh that’s "I'll never waste that much money on a plastic keyboard again".

I can't get it to play...can somebody post the direct YouTube link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYZzzzIbZjo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecreatesongstyles%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D8972%2E0&feature=player_embedded

or you can do a youtube search: Demonstration du Tyros3 Yamaha par A.delauney Part8

Thanks my friend.

I remember seeing this before; he is a real ham and is a lot of fun...good player too.

Nice use of the sampler.

I've never seen a sampler used that way on arranger, pretty interesting though and yes he seems like a ham.

Well, if it's all done on the T3, then I think it's pretty cool but some 'old farts' might be a bit stuffy (or jealous) in review.

If only Yamaha would open up their sampler format to include Akai, there are all kinds of really useful loops, chopped or straight, and one shots that could easily be loaded into the T3's sampler. Up to and including real drum grooves, a la Audya...

But they are going to have to make it more open and simpler to use before this gets easy...

Actually its not all that difficult to use. Not anymore than the Motif anyway.

But the Motif is closed to external formats too...

Only single .wav's can be loaded, there's no multisample format other than Yamaha's proprietary one.

Yeah thats right But I really don't see the excitement with the ancient Akai samples. For the past 20 years i hear about Akai Samples...... The S900 has better voices than many of those old Akai sample disks, I must be missing something....

There are sample CD and software that can be sampled that has to be better then old Akai samples. Unless its the Akai FORMAT people are excfited about. Mapping is not all that difficult on the Tyros either. Certainly easier then the old samplers. The XS is a walk in the park in that regard, especially as compared to the Tyros with eight elements to play with across the vertical and horizontal sampling planes. Thats better than my Dimension Pro software sampling

You think..?

Two things... up until Giga Sampler, nearly ALL sampling was done on Akai. Roland had a decent
share of the Hollywood market, Emu were still hanging around, but the #1 selling sampler was Akai.
EVERYONE made disks for it... some very high end stuff (Platinum Drums, Russ Garfield, XSample, Peter Siedlek,
Ilio - all their drum loop libraries were available in Groove control format, ready sliced with MIDI files to
play it back - just what you need for Audya-like drums) the list just goes on.

And secondly, unlike most Giga stuff, the file sizes were kept down to seldom over 32MB (some big stuff
got spread over two loads to get a 64MB piano, for instance) so they are ideal for loading in your
arranger (which are not exactly known for fast loading times!) rather than the GB sized instruments
that streaming allows. You wouldn't want to spend nearly an hour waiting to load your maxed out T2,
now would you?

Trust me on this one... if you haven't heard the TOTL libraries that were produced for Akai in it's heyday
(and can often be found at very reasonable used prices, now), you can't compare it to any of the
internal sounds except the SA ones (and that's more a function of the triggering than the samples).

Hollywood used Akai extensively in the eighties... They sure as hell ain't using T3's now!

Sure, there were duffers around back then. There are still duffers for Giga, too. But the same people
designing TOTL libraries now were the same people working in Akai back then. I still use a fair amount of
legacy Akai stuff ported to my Kurzweil. As good as it's internal ROM is (I've got the expansion ROM's),
the Akai sounds for most things blow it away, and are still making it to the final mix on many projects.

Diki's right. Akai was on top and still is sitting up there. Even those older disks are still being used by a lot of musicians today. Yamaha could really benefit from opening up to that format. It's actually a very common request from Motif users.., but Yamaha won't do it.

It was the norm to hear consumers asking "is that available in Akai format" in those days and they're asking it just as often if not more today. Akai has become an industry standard for a reason. When sample disks were coming out 99.99999999% of the time the first question out of a potential buyers mouth was "is it available in Akai format". No better example of "if it ain't broke.., don't fix it". A tried and true format that has become an industry standard.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-18-2009).]

Getting back to the topic, I just sold a Tyros3 to a 29 tyear old.

That qualifies as "younger", eh?

I also think it is the "coolness" factor (or lack of) that prevents younger players from buying home keyboards, as opposed to workstations...anything with speakers is considered "home" and therefore uncool.

At my age, it doesn't matter, but younger buyers are afraid of peer criticism and want to "look cool" as well as sound cool...and many people hear with their eyes, more than their ears.

Of course, on the other hand,the DJX sold very well and it had speakers.

I really don't think it's a style content issue at all...that is easily fixed by more contemporary style being available...I think it's a perception problem.

Anytime these young people see an arranger being played, it is usually by someone over 30.

I've yet to see a youngster with an E-50/60 either so it ain't just a Yammie problem.

Who buys Casio's arrangers? They are certainly priced for the younger buyer. Are they targeting a younger buyer, perhaps a buyer with a little colour remaining in their follicles or who have anything in their follicles at all, for that matter?


Ian

If the arranger appeals to a targeted youth and the styles match today's hits.., then speakers really aren't an issue.

Yes.., Ian's right. The DXJ sold VERY well. It actually sold TOO well. Yamaha didn't expect it to cut into the upper line as it did. The DJX was a lot of modern bang for very little buck too. I'd still have mine.., but I wore that thing out.

I will say this though..., the plastic body on the DJX was TOUGH. It wasn't built like the typical PSR (as the DJX was part of the PSR line as you often don't see the full model number for it shown). The plastic shell on the DJX was hard as hell.., the paint even seemed to be a little more durable too. I think Yamaha speculated that model would actually see road use and built it for that possibility.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-18-2009).]

Actually, the DJX sold very well, and then the bottom fell out of it as the styles became all too familiar.

The DJX II was actually not as good, and failed to ignite any burning interest.

I know, because I sold them.

Every workstation/synth that came with built in speakers, usually sold poorly.

Could someone name one that did sell well?

Ian

Revolutionary ?

I could do this on my GEM WX2 more then 15 years ago....

I wouldn't say the bottom fell out because of the styles. The styles on the original still would put up a fair fight against some of Yamaha's current modern styles on some of their arrangers.

The DJX line died due to the release of the second version. The DJX-II pissed off a lot of di-hard DJX lovers who were so excited when the word of a second version was released. The bottom of the DJX line fell out because of the second version doing no justice to the original. I will say the look of the DJX-II turned people off before they even played the thing. People were asking for a back-lit LCD.., Yamaha answered that by dropping the LCD all together and replacing that with and old LED dispaly. Then the HUGE kick in the weebles was when people learned that "touch response" was taken away from the keys!

I agree with you that speakers on workstations have always been a turn off.., but speakers packed into the right type of keyboard (such as the DJX) proved to be very popular. Also part to do with the DJX's internal speakers being pretty darn good and having AMAZING low end bass.

Makers flirted with internal speakers on workstations and even synths back in the day. Remember the very popular Juno-106 (with speakers)? I think it was the Juno-106S

The problem with DJX was you couldn't add new styles.

Other "consumer" synths with speakers...Yamaha's DX27S, B200, and Roland's HS-80/60/10.

These instruments are rare because they just didn't sell well.

Yeah I did miss the whole Akai thing. I remember them being the creme of samples though in many peoples minds. I never messed with samplers, instead buying sample players like the Proteus,U220, etc. Plug and play.

Today the samples are so good its hard to believe (other then major multi layered stuff)Akai's floppy library is still relevant. But I will believe you and a pox on Yamaha for not allowing me to check it out on the XS...

Floppy library? You really DON'T know about this (yet had no problem with an opinion ), do you?

Akai stuff came on CDROM's. Hundreds of MB's of samples on one disk. Akai used SCSI for rapid loading (even by today's arranger standards).

I may have confused him Diki. I just realized I typed DISK instead of DISC in my reply. Sorry if I confused you KingFrog.

Those samples weren't on floppy.., WAY too large for floppy. These samples were on DISC. I often screw up and write DISK when I should be writing it DISC. My bad

Squeak

Of course, that modern style selection would actually have to exist before you could know this at all, Ian.
It's another chicken and egg thing. UNTIL the styles DO become 'cool', it doesn't SOUND cool. If it don't sound cool, no-one looking for a cool keyboard is
going to look twice at it, speakers or not.

I don't believe that speakers make the slightest bit of difference. But what the unit sounds like DOES. It's
all very well saying that IF it had cool styles, it still wouldn't sell, but with all due respect, until it does,
you are guessing, and IMO, incorrectly...

The DJX sold well because it SOUNDED cool, and for no other reason.

One of these days, someone in the arranger industry is going to try this again. And make a FORTUNE

Or not... and eventually go broke (none of us getting any younger )

That's right Diki! It sold well because it SOUNDED COOL! Plus add all the other little goodies it had (THAT NO OTHER ARRANGER KEYBOARD OFFERED IN THAT PRICE RANGE) and there's several other reasons it sold well.

Hopefully someone picks up where the original left off. HUGE market for that type of arranger. The success of the original is proof enough of that too.

Here's the thing though. These modern arrangers CAN sound pretty good in terms of more modern styles. However.., the company MUST employ style writers who TRUELY know the music. It's obvious that modern styles on arrangers today are just an afterthought and more of a space filler.

Remember what Yamaha did with some of those older PSR's with hip hop styles? Remember how the kits used in those styles WERE NOT available from the preset kits.., but to access those you had to go into the editing of that particular style to get that kit. They had made a few changes on individual kit instruments. Hi Hats, and Snares were "tweeked a bit".

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-18-2009).]

Well have to agree to disagree, Diki...I really believe it would...I worked in the business for quite some time.

Ian

Diki those speakers on the original DJX made a HUGE difference. TONS of bottom end.., and if my memory is correct there was even a dedicated knob on the panel of the DJX that was a LOW END BOOST. The quality of those speakers def added to the sound.

No doubt it did...but it stopped selling because people got tired of the styles...you could not load in new ones.

That was the biggest complaint I got about it.

A nice instrument in it's day, and perhaps a re-make with the ability to load new styles would do well.

Still better, some enterprising person could do up a batch of contemporary styles for the present PSR, but they would have to devise a protection system.

Ian

Worked in MI retail myself, Ian.... never had a problem selling ugly sh*t that sounded great (was the first dealer for Ensoniq
Mirage in the South). Couldn't sell bad sounding gear no matter WHAT bells and whistles were on it.

Seems like squeak (who had one ) thinks the speakers were a PLUS, not a minus. I think you miss
what younger players want. FIRST, it has to sound cool. After that, well, who the heck knows? Because
NOTHING in the arranger pantheon sounds cool

Until someone makes one, you can't even speculate whether speakers make any difference or not...

(And damnit! Why did I bother TinyURL-ing my first post just to end up with the page too wide anyway?
Got a URL too wide for the page, mc? Use TinyURL, and keep things readable... )

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 05-18-2009).]

You're missing something Ian. That lack of internal style editing on the DJX really wasn't as much a show stopper as you'd think. It didn't take long before the di-hard midi techies got into the DJX and opened her up for software apps.

Not only that the DJX became a common side by side companion to di-hard MPC users who wanted a nice inexpensive groove keyboard to use with their samplers.

Roland did it too.., there was the really not so well known Roland EG-101.., that board was hard to find.

I understand what you're saying, Squeak, but I would wonder just how many DJX users were owned by "die-hard midi techies"...sort of like, how many S900 users are die-hard pro players?

I can only give my own experience with selling them...the biggest request were for more styles of the same quality...it may have been different in other regions.

I also sold quite a few Roland DJ-70 Mk II's which proved very popular.

Several of the DJX's I sold were used "live" by DJ's in conjunction with the rest of their rigs.

It was quite a bang for the buck, and you're right, the on-board speakers were pretty good and they did have a bass booster.

You can still hear demos of the styles and sounds here: http://www.synthmania.com/djx.htm

A second hand one usually goes for $130-$150 when they come up for sale, which isn't too often, at least around here.

Ian

There were a lot of di hard midi gurus who had DJX's. They were selling for $299 and that price was just too tempting for many. I belonged to several DJX forums (not up and running any more) and there were A LOT of midi gurus who had the DJX on those forums. I was even seeing in mags (showing personal studios) and the crazy thing is you'd see all this top end gear.., but there was lil o'l blue sitting there too

There was a surprising number of experienced players who bought the DJX solely because it was SO unique and damn cheap for what it did and how it sounded.

Yeah, I guess I should really take into account the regional differences with this sort of gear.

There is only a small community of users as you describe...my region is steeped in Celtic, Celtic Rock, Country, R&B and quite a bit of Jazz...even Karaoke was very slow getting here ...very traditional place, yet fairly broad in musical tastes, considering.

The DJX did sell very well, all the same...the users were almost an "underground" here, and it's only in the last decade, that "dance music" was an integral part of the scene.

Ian

My idea of the most civilized place on the planet would be the LAST place that Karaoke caught on...

I would love to move there...