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#262632 - 05/09/09 07:47 AM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
So I would assume judging by comments no one is using monitors & keeping the Bose in front of house.

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#262633 - 05/09/09 07:58 AM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
hammer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: Texas
Donny,
That is the whole idea - Bose says to put it slightly behind you and it solves the monitor problem. Not only that, but you now hear exactly what your audience is hearing. It works very well. I have setup that way often with my standard L1.

Hammer

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#262634 - 05/09/09 09:04 AM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
OK Dean,

I used to keep my L1 next 6 feet right of me at directly aligned with my ears...worked well that way. Glad to hear you enjoying you new unit.I hear Don M has one also.

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#262635 - 05/09/09 09:16 AM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
hammer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: Texas
I called Bose today and asked about using a keyboard with two outputs into the single input on the Bose Compact L1. Here is what the tech told me.

First, on the standard L1s there are two chans so using two cables - one into each input makes sense. On the compact with only one single input he recommended using only the Main L/R output from the keyboard and runing only one cable into the Bose.

I asked about the various "splitters" and effects cables used to combine two outputs into one input and he indicated that should not be necessary with this product. In fact, he indicated it could cause a phase problem. So, I will give it a try with only one cable for part of my gig on Sunday and with two cables the other half and see if it makes any difference.

About gain staging the unit. He said always make sure the source (my keyboard) is set hotter than the bose. For example, keyboard at say 50 percent - Bose at 25 percent. I will also give that a try Sunday. I was doing just the opposite.

He also said with the compact it is very important to position the unit to the rear of the performer - especially with the extentions in place because the sound would be well above the performer if placed right next to him. That actually makes sense and might have been the problem I experience yesterday with hearing it - even though it was only 18 inches to my left.

All this begs the question - What exactly is the real difference between the two main outputs on our keyboards? Is the Main L/R truly a combination of the R and L sounds? Or do you really need the L output to fill in the sound on a single input amp?

I know many of you out there know all of this but for those like me who have very limited experience with amps perhaps it will help.

Hammer

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#262636 - 05/09/09 09:42 AM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Dean ....good news......cant wait to hear your opinion when you push the Yammy a bit sound wise thru the compact Bose..

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#262637 - 05/09/09 12:20 PM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
Personally, I don't think anyone has ever bothered to try to quantify the mythic 'mono out isn't as good as summing L&R externally'.

It's fairly easy to test if you have a DAW. Same Piano MIDI file (why not use the Purgatory Creek one? ), first few bars. Make one recording stereo, make another recording mono, out the 'Mono Out' jack. Convert the stereo recording to Mono in your DAW, then 'normalize' both files (this is important, to make sure they are EXACTLY the same volume).

Now compare first by listening, and also if you can line them up to play simultaneously (line the peaks up to be sample accurate with each other) flip the phase (Invert phase) of one of the recordings, and then play. If they are IDENTICAL, one will cancel out the other, and you should hear basically nothing at all.

If you can hear a difference, it should show up on the null test, too. But unless there is something seriously out of whack with the summing electronics in the arranger, you should hear very little.

Personally, I would be surprised if there WAS much of a difference. Summing two signals to mono is not exactly difficult, electronically. But gain staging TWO outputs (L&R) into two channels panned mono, and ONE mono output into one channel so they are at EXACTLY the same level is quite hard. And the ear perceives even the slightest change in volume as a 'difference' in tone. Hence the 'anecdotal' reports of a possibly flawed Mono out.

Me, I think the problem is MUCH more about certain stereo piano sample sets (to my ears, Yamaha are particularly bad in this regard) being somewhat out of phase (to exaggerate the apparent width) or poorly recorded, so that there are really noticeable changes in timbre when collapsed to mono, no matter HOW you achieve that...

Making your manufacturer aware of your displeasure at how poorly the stereo sounds collapse to mono will do FAR more than worrying too much about going mono 'inside the box' or outside. They either take it into consideration when they make the NEXT arranger, or it will never improve, no matter WHAT the do to the Mono jack...

)BTW, I have done simple tests on my G70, and have noticed NO difference between going mono inside the box or externally)
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#262638 - 05/09/09 01:54 PM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
The Bose is sub par with any of the Yamaha stereo sounds.

I can't speak for a G70 or Korg, but I can tell you without hesitation, there is a considerable loss in quality when a Yamaha arranger is used in the mono Bose(one system).

Believe me, I wouldn't have sprung for two systems if one would have done the job...and one system doesn't do the job well enough to my ears.

Biggest loss is the stereo pianos, like Live!Grand Piano, Cool!ElectricPiano and several of the SA and Mega guitars that are processed with stereo delay and chorus. The Leslie effect on the organs is drastically affected as well.

I think any instrument that uses stereo DSP of any kind would sound less than it should when played in mono in the Bose.

I first noticed the deficiency on a buddy's PSR-3000 being played through a Bose L1. He didn't mind so much, because all he was using it for was to play SMF, most of which he made himself, with just basically a style and very little, if any, right hand parts.

If all you do is use SMF, it might do the trick, but if you do a lot of instrumental tunes (I do all instrumental) with a Yamaha arranger(including the T3 and CVP) then there will be a difference.

Some can live with it....I couldn't. Hence, the two systems. Mind you, I don't regret buying them, because, believe me, they sound incredible and make both the T3 and S900 sound monstrous and super clean.

The way Yamaha chooses to stereoize it's pianos is not necessarily "bad"...it is just the way they want to use them in a home arranger, which will be played in stereo, either through the factory speakers, or through a home stereo.

The CP-300 provides a mono piano because it is meant to use through a mono PA, and because it is a professional stage piano.

I'm sure other arrangers may provide mono samples for this purpose. Yamaha does not. No big deal, until you use a mono system.

I tried the T3 and PSR-S900 in mono through a Yamaha Stagepas 500, and it affected them exactly the way the Bose did, so obviously, they are meant to sound their best in stereo.

So hear what you like, but I hear the Bose crippling the Yamaha sound in mono...whose fault is it? No one's, as far as I can see, as the Yamaha arrangers were never meant to be played in mono, and even though there is a L+R Mono output jack, it doesn't quite sum things down to mono...at least to my ears.

Bottom line, at least for me, the Bose sounds crappy in mono with Yamaha arrangers....or, vice versa, if you will.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-09-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#262639 - 05/09/09 02:14 PM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
I'm pretty much with you there, Ian, except for the blanket stereo statement... There ARE some arrangers that their piano, although VERY good in stereo, collapse to mono without nearly as much phasing issues as the Yamaha's do. And there are some WS's that provide mono piano samples based on exactly the same piano samples as the stereo ones.

I simply feel that this isn't a universal problem, just one that Yamaha in particular could pay more attention to, vis a vis their piano samples. After all, they ARE a piano company...

Surely their piano sample sets should be BETTER than the rest, not worse (at this particular function - we won't go into tastes, again )?

BTW, I am sure that stereo L1 system (you got the MkII?) is wonderful, but jeez! $5000+US for a stereo PA? You got a gold mine under your shack in the Klondike, Ian?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#262640 - 05/09/09 02:17 PM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
Oh, and how about trying the DAW tests on your Yamaha I outlined above...?

Isn't it about time somebody answered this question once and for all? IS there any difference between summing a Yamaha internally or externally that is quantifiable, rather than just an 'impression', as subject to variables as that is?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#262641 - 05/09/09 02:28 PM Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I'm not going to make excuses for Yamaha, Diki...they obviously have their reasons for the way the stereo is done in their arrangers...perhaps it's because they want people to use stereo amps, I don't know.

A PA is a one time investment...I'll never need another....better than getting something every few years...I rather buy a new arranger every few years than a PA.

It's only money, and many people squander it on lesser things.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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