Happened to see this on the yamaha psr styles yahoo group:

"Hi,

I have just been informed by my dealer Roland and GEM will no longer produce any arranger keyboards.


Best wishes, Jeff / The Netherlands"

Time will tell, seems to me I've seen that GEM was gone, but Roland? Anybody else heard anything on this yet?

GEM..., yes we know how that story ended.... Roland..., I wouldn't place too much on this story. Roland is still set to release the Prelude (a new model). I don't think Roland's getting out of the arranger game. They may downsize some products, but I don't see the arranger section going.

Not only that Roland even produces arrangers that are seated in their synth sections.., like the GW-8 and older model GW-7.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-06-2009).]

Rumors abound

is that bridge in Brooklyn still for sale?

As long as Yamaha is making instruments too play the world is a happy place!

Let's face it what we already have is more then good enough to make beautiful music.....if more people would concentrate on improving their playing skills & stop worrying about what is coming out new maybe some day the world will return to the glory of the golden days of people playing live again instead of teh instrument playing you Ahhhhhhhh.....whats the use?!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-06-2009).]

That Jeff guy is probably the same one that started the rumour on my website about GEM. I checked that story out and it was based on ONE website that saw the GEM website (Italy) was not responding, and quickly wrote a "blog" about GEM being bankrupt and firing 75 workers.

So I e-mailed GEM Italy and GEM USA. GEM USA told me they did not have any idea about the situation in Italy. GEM Italy never replied, but that is not uncommon for GEM...

Meanwhile, the GEM Italy website is back, and GEM USA just moved into a new office, as one of their employees told me.

There is, apart from that ONE website, NO other report about GEM being bankrupt.

Roland has a new arranger out, that barely hit the stores yet. Roland Central Europe is my site's sponsor for the next years... My site is about arranger-keyboards...

Rumours, rumours... Please... Check the facts before spreading nonsense.



------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

Roland simply seem unwilling to use the WORD 'arranger', even though they are still making them.

The GW-8 is an arranger, plain and simple. Putting it in the WS section of their marketing plan, and using the word WS on it does not actually change what it IS...

But it might reflect how poorly younger players view the arranger lines in general, as little has been done to address their tastes in music styles and sounds, and as packed with ballroom and schlager styles as they currently come I mean, come on! You're a young, hiphop and rap loving twentysomething... who would want to buy something that your grandparents would feel at home with?

I can see the thinking at Roland now... 'Arrangers aren't selling well to younger players. What do we do? I know! Let's just take the WORD 'Arranger' off of it, stick the word 'Workstation' on it, and put it up on the website with the other WS's...'

"BRILLIANT!"

Yamaha does the same thing Diki! Can anyone say Mini Mo..., a lot of buyers who later realized they bought an arranger keyboard found themselves saying Damn Yamaha and that Mo Pho Mini Mo

Before anyone tries to scream the MM6 isn't an arranger YES it is.., it's just not as full featured as other arrangers, but uses auto accomp and even has variations and fills that trigger exactly like an arranger. (plus as even confirmed by Yamaha it's made in the PSR factory)

You said it before Diki.., even if it's an arranger made by Roland.., if they put knobs on it.., well PRESTO ya gotta synth/workstation now



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-06-2009).]

Diki......
listen to today's top 50 songs...
then listen to the styles of each song.....
now tell me how many songs you can play with each style versus how many you can play with styles from the 30's to BEFORE the pre rap era...not as many at all......why? because many of these modern songs are being created in a different way using so many different pieces of gear that it is very difficult to use only one style to achieve what you want.....so instead we have workstations that are sought of a hybrid of both arranger/synth with arpeggiators etc etc .......& here lies the problem of today's arrangers using so called older styles......if they would just mix both KB's together even more eg: a Fanthom with G70 styles & features, Tyros3/motif... etc.... etc ..
any manufacturer that does this in opne package will be a WINNER for sure!!

Donny.., I think that's a great idea.., but "ignorance" will destroy this entirely. The problem is actually on both sides of the fence too. You'll have di-hard synth/workstation buyers saying "ain't no way.., no style or auto accomp on my workstation". On the other side there are even arranger players who'll say "no arps, pattern sequencers, and deep synth engines with fully expandable sampling.., no no, not on my arranger".

Could you imagine the cost of that unit alone as well. The pro arrangers already greatly surpass the average price of a workstation. We're bitching now about a $5,000 Ketron. Get a company to merge the two and $5,000 will be the price for the BASE model.

What you are missing, I think, Donny, is that the number of people that would even WANT to play some 30's music, and THEN do a bunch of hiphop and rap has got to be on the fingers of one hand!

You want to sell arrangers to today's kids?

Take out ALL the older styles...

If they WANTED to play Bossa's and Quicksteps, they'd already HAVE an S900 They don't. They want Timbaland styles. They want Outkast styles. They want 50 Cent styles. They want Muse styles. They want as many styles as we do. But not the same ones.

All the rock styles in any arranger today go back twenty years (at least!). You would kill a block party in four bars with any of the rap or hiphop styles we have! It is no wonder that arrangers are dismissed by younger players, to the point where they don't even want to see the WORD 'arranger' anywhere on a product....

It is by no means difficult for ANY arranger company to make a modern HIP and up to date arranger keyboard. If it wasn't possible Yamaha wouldn't have sold so many Yamaha DJX models. Shit.., that board was so MODERN for the time and AFFORDABLE that people bought one to play.., one to hold the door open, and one just to say "hey I got me three of em".

Even today the DJX would still give ANY top end arranger out there a good run for the money in terms of MODERN styles. IT CAN BE DONE. The problem is Yamaha had no idea how popular it would really be... Guess what happened...., that $299 arranger started cutting into the top line. Yamaha released a second version (totally stripped of many important features the original had).., then KILLED the line.

Donny.., younger players WILL buy an arranger if the styles were modern and up to date. The problem is no company is making it for them. Not only that..., but NONE of the top three companies are willing to admit they ain't got the style writers educated and skilled in the area to pull this off too. You spend all these years sticking to the classics., well that's what you end up with.., old fashioned out of date and out of touch "classic" style writers.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-06-2009).]

Exactly my point Diki & Squeak......it's two totaly "different" worlds........

first of all hip-hop & rap style music SHOULDN'T be played on arranger KB's because they weren't created on a arranger KBs....secondly DJ's spin these songs at parties 99% of the time & there are a very small majority of good LIVE Hip Hop or Rap bands singing & playing this kind of stuff anyway because of the same reason...they create their backing tracks & sing on top......
USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB....this melding of the style era IMO will never come to light although its a nice idea
As good as computers are to improve music in the last 40 years they have also destroyed it in other ways also....think about it...... ! REAL people playing instruments is on a slow downward spiral & its all our fault.

What the F#%K happened to real music & playing together like this dammiiittt!!!

Ahh whats the use...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMWdJpU9t5Q&feature=related



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-06-2009).]

There was a newspaper article in the Rimmini, Italy paper several weeks ago, which reported that Generalmusics owners, Mateo and Danielle Galanti were in trouble with the Italian Government over money they owed the government. The article was in Italian and we translated in into English and were able to get this much out of it. There was some kind of fraud, it reported having to do with multiple factories and employees working in these factories. I don't know how it resolved, but this is probably where this rumor started from. When I called the offices here in the USA, I was told by an employee of GEM that he had heard the same rumors and didn't know if they were true or not.
Generalmusic is a very large company in Italy and I would hope everything will come out OK and they will continue to produce products for world wide distribution. I traveled to their country in 2002 and was treated to tours of their factories and sightseing in Italy. It was one of the nicest experiences in my 39 years of being in this business.
As to Roland.......I know that here in the USA Roland has decided not to carry the E80 any more. I was surprised they were selling what was left for such a cheap price right after NAMM and when they told me there were none left and that was it, it didn't surprise me. I also know that this bad economy is having an affect on everything in all industries. Cutbacks are being made at all levels and product development will suffer.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

My Roland buddy mentioned there may not be any new TOTL arrangers (E or G series) from Roland in the near future.

Hopefully that is not the case, and Roland will still maintain presence in that area, along with Yamaha and Korg.

Competition always makes 'em better.

Ian

Sorry, Donny, but the music of the 30's wasn't made on an arranger, either... In fact, NO music on the radio at all is, was, or probably ever will be

It doesn't stop an arranger from doing older music well, because it has the sounds and styles appropriate for that music currently in it. But they would do today's music equally as well (or as badly, depending on your point of view!) if voiced and styled for that format.

The whole point is, yes, a WS is probably what the music was created on. But it wasn't created in realtime, it isn't performed in realtime easily on those WS's, and even modern hiphop and rap music has intros, verses, choruses and fills. Despite some chord recognition starting to cross over to WS's like the MoXS and M3, etc., they are STILL quite inferior to an arranger at the basic control of song creation, live.

But because the manufacturers balkanize the lines so rigidly, you never get to actually see what a well styled modern arranger COULD do if the sounds and style teams were not mired in the eighties. I say put the same teams on arranger style design that design the arps for the modern WS's (and arp is nothing more than a different word for a style Part), and you would SEE what squeak is talking about.

In the meantime, just try to find an original DJX. Listen to how contemporary it sounds (despite actually being MUCH older than your S900). Then imagine something contemporary like that... If you were a younger player of live music (rather than a bedroom laptop jockey) you would be all over these.

The DJX is a real cool instrument...I still have one here tucked away in my store room...and, you're right Diki...the styles are still pretty contemporary even though it is several years old...the one I have is mint and a real keepsake.

Personally, I'd like to see more country styles, and more jazz ballads.

Ian

The Yamaha DJX (the old cool blue) was an arranger in it's own category. It was unlike ANY arranger on the market. This board was designed for MODERN music. It wasn't choc full of waltz, polka, big band, ect. This thing had UP TO DATE styles on it. It was released years ago and even one today would hold up well against any current arranger and still do BETTER at modern styles of music...., AND IT HAD KNOBS PLUS A RIBBON CONTROLLER! You could even do some crazy realtime pattern mixing by using the keys to mute various parts of the pattern. Yamaha really did their homework on that board.

Donny you need to get your hands on one if you can find it. Hell maybe Russ has got one tucked away somewhere

Donny you're looking at this through dark glasses man. It's not your flavor of music.., you don't play it, you don't write it.., nor do you perform it. You see no reason for this type of keyboard because YOU wouldn't use it. That's just YOU bud There are many younger people out there that would snatch up an arranger that had modern styles or something like the DJX, but updated a bit. The number of DJX's yamaha sold is proof enough of that. I'd still have mine..., but I wore that blue beast out!

Yamaha in a way tried to bring something like the DJX back..., this time it's called the MM6. It's styles aren't really as hard as the original DJX.., nor is the sound set. Yamaha learned from the original DJX what an affordable modern arranger would do to their upper line.

I have the DJX original...the DJXII and DJXIIB weren't nearly as useful...or as much fun to use.





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 03-06-2009).]

The DJXII was released to kill the line. Version 2 just fell short on the whole thing. They took away the LCD display and added that 1985 LED.., don't get me started on the color scheme..., and they took away TOUCH RESPONSE on the keys of all things. It was obvious Yamaha's intention was to kill the line with version 2.., but still try to sell as many of those as they could.

The first time I played version 2 and the box version I laughed so hard!!! At the time I still had the original. I left that store thankful I still had the ol blue.

Donny this is where you should post a pic Find one of the original and that gawd awful version 2....

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-06-2009).]

Roland already uses SRX cards extensively, why not incorporate styles into a loadable card and then the keyboard could appeal to different ages and genres with the switch of a card.

That's def another way of doing it. That way Roland could continue to make the traditional arranger to cover the standards.., but offer an expansion card that would had a whole slew of modern styles and patches. It could be done.., if Roland WANTED to do it.

I'll light the fuse...

NO new music is "made on an arranger". None at all. Arrangers, using styles, are nice to reproduce exisiting songs, at best. Find the style that matches the song best, and play along.

What makes my E-80 "kind of" a workstation in my eyes, is the fact that I can not only use it as an arranger, but I can also write music, MAKE music, from scratch. The vast amount of different high-quality sounds, that (to a certain extend) can be altered to my liking, allow me to play each and every instrument by myself, record it as multitrack-audio or as MIDI-sequence. That's MAKING _new_ music. You can't do that using pre-cooked instant accompaniment.

Sure, I use styles in writing new music, to "capture" the general idea of a song, while I only have a rough idea of a chord progression, a melody line. And that's why I love the arrangerfunctions on my keyboard. But before the song is finished, I will have every "arranger" part replaced by my own.

Manufacturers would be wise to add a lot of functions to instruments, abandoning the idea of "just an arranger", but adding more and more features that allow the player to alter sounds, use imported samples etc etc. Once they get that right, the instrument WILL be interesting for young _and_ 'old' buyers.

And you know what? Maybe that's exactly what the R&D's of the "big three" are looking into as we speak.

Just my € 0,02

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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

[This message has been edited by Burkels (edited 03-07-2009).]

indeed!
modularity, that should and will be a good answer for various needs. GW8 seems as a good start. still, a lot of work to be done. also, open OS could be the other good answer.

That use is quite common among arranger users...I use my S900 the same way, usually when I am making a CD.

I do tend to leave in the guitar parts, such as strums, to make the best use of the mega voices.

For "live" play I always use my own custom assembled styles, as to put my own stamp on a tune.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 03-07-2009).]

I don't think it's that common as you think it is I think that 90% of the arranger users play along with styles that others made... That's where the arranger's reputation of "PushOneButtonAndItPlays" comes from. That's why many people look down on the instrument, since they think all you have to do is press a key and the band plays. And to some extend they're right.

It's just that you don't have to stop there. New instruments with improved and added functions to create(!) music from scratch will have to be the next generation. A cross-over between arrangers and synths, if you will. Let's call them Workstations

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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

Perhaps you are right...I do know that the line between arranger and workstation has blurred a lot in the recent past.

I find making demos much faster with an arranger than a workstation.

Ian

being a good player is the #1 thing that should matter to anyone....

second is what keyboard you use

not enough emphasis is put on LEARNING HOW TO PLAY! Too many people think they know how to play in their mind until someone else listens to their music. Btw, & on topic again.... on the other hand Roland will be around a very long time they make superior gear & is not going anywhere.

No doubt that's true Donny...but the question seems to be, will Roland continue making TOTL arrangers...especially since the E-80 and G70 are no longer produced?

Ian

Ian just be patient Roland won't let us down
..G70/E80 are still awesome units in their own right & can make beautiful music in the hands of an experienced player.
Just wait & see is all I can say.

I'd be surprised if Roland abandoned a segment they utterly dominate in Europe, the Middle East and Asia.

I predict they'll wind down their manufacturing presence in Italy, perhaps retaining R&D there, while tooling up for the next generation of E-series in China.

As an aside, and FWIW, an ex-colleague of mine who works for a large European Roland dealer reports they're still listing and selling E-80s, with no supply problems.

Does any one think for one second that if you had a hip-hop style comparable to a hip-hop song in 2009 that that style would be able to be use for more than one song?


The reason why arrangers work for the type of music they work for is that most songs in a particular genre work the same.
For example you can play a number of songs on a ballad style (Misty, Teach me tonight).
With Today’s hip-hop, To play an already existing song, you can probably only use one style to do so.
If modern styles were really needed for playing live, you would see a lot of persons playing Motif xs live or Korg M3.

Lets face it, to play an already exiting hip-hop song, people want to hear the original sounds that are in the song. Hence you have a DJ.
And a hiphop song today would be old news tomorrow.
Even Workstations are having a hard time keeping up with modern loops.

Agreed younger people do not buy or play Arrangers,They are stuck with the pre programmed (tame) loops which are goo for sing some modern "sounding" dance tunes like the Cupid Shuffle maybe. WS have far more flexibility and now can also be an arranger.

KIds want to CREATE not PLAYBACK. They want original loops not those found in a million other pre programmed keyboards. Every occasion I have I demo an arranger to a kid they ask "How do I create my own loops"
Now that I have a Motif I "get it"

The beats makes the Tyros appear like a PSR 313.
I send them to a WS. Case close,

I don't know about Asia and Middle East, but Roland certainly is not the dominant brand in Europe where it comes to arrangers.

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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

Well, they certainly have been far from dominating the arranger market here in Canada and also the USA.

Ian

So where is ROLANDs strenght is sales in the world?

Roland is not about arrangers only....

------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

Some time ago Roland had 90% of arrangers market, here in Brazil (E70,E86,E96,G800, G1000 times)
Today, Yamaha has the same 90%.

Chico

The reality today is totally different...
the arranger keyboard market is less than the 3% of the whole sales worldwide.

For this reason the Roland stopped to develope on new TOTL arranger keyboard, to much cost without return back money.

Just look around how many synth keyboards and workstation models are available and then you can count on the first hand finger the TOP arranger keyboards available.

I can say that because I get the TRUE test on my MS products too.
The last MS OS available is the Kubuntu OS 3.0, with the multiple ASIO host features and some new others features: MS User that have download this new OS on the last weeks: 265 Upgrade 3.0 download.

then I have released the new OS 3.1, totally the SAME OS as before BUT that include the commercial windows Live styler OS.
5 Upgrade 3.1 download with the Live styler!

I have invested a LOT of money for the Live styler integration and we get returned less that 150 euro of license, that we have to return to Norbert..

I have then sent one email request to this all 260 MS user that have already update to OS 3.0 and asked why they will not have the Live styler too.
about all replyed me that are NOT interested on Yamaha styles and live styler engine and wil NOT play the license at all.
they want have the MS ONLY for the multiple asio host features and for the all sounds like a true workstation.

So, this is another probe to better stopping the cotinue developement on styles engine BUT only on workstatio features, because nobody will use the MS for styles player.

You can hardly blame your current customers for eschewing arranger software... Few arranger players are buying it because of the fact that, as an arranger, it is styled and voiced OOTB considerably inferior to a Big 3 TOTL arranger. People are buying it because it makes an excellent WS and open VSTi player. So you are not polling arranger players...

Poll a bunch of PA2Xpro or SD-1 or E80 users whether THEY would like to have native Yamaha styles on THEIR arrangers, and you are MUCH more likely to get a positive result. That's because these people actually ARE arranger players

I would buy the MS in a flash if I wanted a live keyboard that played VSTi's, and functioned as a fully flexible WS, loopstation and DAW. Trouble is, me and most other arranger players want an ARRANGER. And THEN add that other stuff. I think your polling data just shows how just about everybody BUT you think about the MS. They all use it as a VSTi WS, not an arranger... (OK, some generalization going on here, but you can't argue with your own poll, can you? )

Sad thing is, if instead of spending all this time and energy trying to get LS and an XG soundset working, you had simply spent all that energy trying to get some great MS styles written, perhaps there WOULD be more arranger users responding to your questionnaire...

Dear friends ,
On many arrangers you can make your own styles. These can be totally new styles or edited presetstyles. So when you are able to create a complete new song and when you are able to use all the facilities of your arranger you could make a totally new piece of music.
For composers the arranger is a very good tool.
But the problem is this all takes some hours to do the job.

Sadly, i think the Roland rummor is true too, i've heard from reliable sources. Not completely
out of Arranger market but not doing PRO arrangers anymore...time will tell.

Okay, here is the latest scoop from Roland U.S.. First of all, please take this with a grain of salt because the person I spoke with at Roland U.S. was not altogether privy about top product management decisions by Roland Japan.

He said that nothing had been revealed from Roland Japan suggesting that Roland has stopped in the making and/or production of Top Of The Line Arrangers. He told me that the E-80 had been recently discontinued [which we all now know] and said Roland's discontinuance of the E-80 may be the reason folks on the internet think Roland has somehow bailed on making totl arrangers in the future. To his knowledge that "rumor" has no substantiative proof, since he has not heard anything even remotely along those lines himself.

Another thing worth mentioning is don't expect to see a G70 successor at summer NAMM '09 either. He said 99.9% of the time Roland always releases keyboard products [including totl arrangers] at the Winter NAMM's. So our likeliest occurrence for a G70 successor will be at Winter NAMM 2010. When you think about it though, Winter NAMM '10 is only 9 months away. Just about the same time we'll see the Audya for sale on U.S. soil perhaps too huh?

It's also worth mentioning that the tone of his voice suggested that he was privy to the actual production of a G70 successor even as we speak, but of course, tried to show his poker face by trying to hide that from becoming known to me or anyone on the outside by deflecting questions about that possibility when asked. But from his positive demeanor while talking to him, it suggested, to me anyway, that something is up and we may get our wish in 9 months at Winter NAMM '10. Whether it will have 76 keys or not is another matter.

>> I honestly felt pretty encouraged and even hopeful that Roland is still in the business of making high-end arrangers and will continue to do so both now and on into the foreseeable future. Time will tell all, right? Nevertheless, I'm certainly looking forward to Winter NAMM '10 and will keep my hopes up for a new and revolutionary high-end arranger product coming from Roland Japan. All the better if it has 76 keys too...

All the best,
Mike

If it is a G70 successor, it will have 76... if it is an E80 successor, it will have 61

I wouldn't look for 'revolutionary', were I you (or me, either!). I don't honestly think that Roland actually HAS anything in their WS line that qualifies as that, and that's where revolutionary new features usually come from. The new voicing options on the Brass ARX card is about the only thing that qualifies, unless you are unbelievably optimistic about the V-Piano technology trickling down real soon...

To be honest, I'd be happy with simply a 'refinement' of Roland's current OS and sounds, in fact, a G70/E80 hybrid, with some of the OS clunkers fixed would be adequate (although maybe not enough to make me move from the G70). Add in more extensive VK Organ parameters, and a combination of SRX and ARX slots, that would be good. Oh, and get around to linking the Guitar Mode with the style engine would be a winner.

But if they bring back the Chord Sequencer, I'll get TWO - no matter what else they add...

Here is an email from my former Roland rep when I was still in retail:

"Hi Scott:

Good to hear from you and I'm doing fine!

Contrary to rumors from our competitors, Roland is not getting out of the arranger products business. What is true is that we will no longer have an extensive line of KR-series products. However, at NAMM, we introduced the new RM-700, which will start shipping later this spring. Here's a link to this phenomenal product on our website - http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=980

Of course, we continue to make arranger keyboards, including the new Prelude that was introduced at NAMM, and now have a totally brand new line of Atelier Organs which are doing extremely well!"

Keep in mind this is from a Roland rep who told me a few months ago when I was trying to find a dealer to see the E60 that I should wait until the NAMM show.

So I take this with a grain of salt also.

So a console "arranger" piano and a home organ are their new Arranger line up?



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-10-2009).]

Getting honest information from a rep is an exercise in futility. They simply tell you whatever THEY feel will benefit them the best. They are one step removed from door to door vacuum salesmen But the same principles apply (or lack of them )...

The US market is a drop in the ocean for Roland when it comes to arranger sales.

Sorry, but if Roland Arranger were that healthy, worldwide, why no new TOTL or MOTL models for YEARS?

G70, E80, E60/50... G70 and E80 are discontinued (although no-one has definitively confirmed that they are discontinued in Europe, too), who knows how long the E50/60 will continue?

And the Prelude and GW-8 (as hard as Roland try to badge it as a WS, the GW-8 is pure arranger) as the only new arrangers in four years or so.... Hardly confidence inspiring, if there IS a healthy arranger market abroad...

Roland is fine......they make an excellent product that last for years ......dont be a fortune teller just let it happen

Oh come on Diki, you don't seriously believe Roland has to rely on arrangers to survive in the industry?

------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

Burkels... please note I did say "Roland Arranger" above, not Roland in general. Roland's health as a company is probably fine (given the circumstances), but Roland's Arranger Division has had well published cutbacks and loss of market share. And a screeching halt in TOTL and MOTL innovation and new models.

How old is the G70 now? Five years or so? The E80 is essentially the same thing in a 61. A few things added, a few things taken away. But hardly a 'new' Roland arranger. And it is four years old. Roland used to have about the same three year cycle that Yamaha do. They are now two years late. And still no reliable word of new TOTL and MOTL product, just cheap toy arrangers with very limited capabilities.

If that's the sign of a healthy Roland Arranger Division, with huge European demand, I think we have a problem...

Perhaps they agree with you, Diki, and forsee the arranger going the way of the home organ? It could be that they're the only prescient player in the big three? Time will tell.