Post deleleted:

Nigel just delete this post. This post will just turn into another crap shoot because other posters allow too much of their own PERSONAL positions (relating to how THEY use an arranger) to get in the way.

Are we not here to learn and share..? Some of you guys need to understand that this forum isn't just about people that perform and not everyone here's buying arrangers for the same reason you do and prefer to HEAR a different type of audio demo. If you guys want to help this group out it's up to you. Just because you guys prefer to hear it one way doesn't mean that's the only way everyone else here wants to hear it.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-04-2009).]

Squeak these are easily accessible on you tube to listen to no?
http://www.korg.de/?popup=9785&no_cache=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgaficTi78



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2009).]

Honestly Donny the answer is NO!!! Type in a Korg PA arranger..., and you're stuck with 5 billion middle eastern demos (nothing wrong with middle easter music.., but the pickins are slim when it comes to these models on YouTube outside of those music styles). MediaStation demos are the same one's we're seeing here. I've see a couple good G-70 demos, Yammie demos, ect.., but 99.99% of them are someone going nuts over top of the selected style. With the compression factor of YouTubes vids..., often a style is lost in the background. I've seen a few vids that are showing the styles by themselves too.., but again so many aren't showcasing the board.., but the player wanting to show what they can do as well.., which at times can get in the way of actually HEARING the board.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-04-2009).]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KTDM4dyqCA&feature=related

Seen this one.., it proves my point. What are you hearing more of THE GUY PLAYING WHO'S LEAD PATCHES ARE RIGHT IN YOUR FACE.., or the the way in the background style that "wants to also be heard too"? I got decent speaker and I hear the usual... Someone more focused on showing their playing ability rather than what the board can do....

Squeak I think most posters want their work critiqued or at the very least shared...

I wouldn't take the time to post styles, not in a million years. Who the heck has time for that?

My .02

Cheers-

------------------
Bill in Dayton

I know people also want opinions of their work.., that's great and we should continue doing that. However, their is a clearly enough people on this forum who also want to hear the styles.., I just thought that perhaps people would feel more comfortable posting in a situation where their playing may not be hammered to death... Just a suggestion. What you see as pointless doesn't mean it won't be useful to someone else. Just another way to look at it.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-04-2009).]

I agree with Bill.....style demos you can hear online if you look anywhere or on the manuafacturers sites.......
http://www.korg.de/?popup=9785&no_cache=1

to me they mean nothing compared to hearing them played by someone in real time...because that's the real deal plain & simple.Just look at the unbelievable controversy over the chord recognition on the Audya due to styles played in different ways.....a bad player can kill a keyboards reputation versus a good player...but the style remains the same



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2009).]

Just a different approach guys that's all. Try to look at it from a NON PERFORMERS position Donny. There are many here who don't perform. You peform for a living.., so yes you want to hear all the fluff and buff. What about all those people here who would just like to hear what the style sounds like?

I've talked to numerous members in private email who are HOME PLAYERS who would love to hear the styles alone posted here.., but find themselves always pushed to the back because it's PEFORMERS versions they're always hearing on the Zone. There are HOME PLAYERS here as well. They can speak up if they want to. I've spoken to many of them privately. I took the step and threw the question/suggestion out there. If the others want to jump on.., then it's up to them.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-04-2009).]

http://www.korg.de/?popup=9785&no_cache=1


but squeak thats the point if you cant play hearing things like this make you go in your pocket and BUY BUY BUY.....thinking some day you can do it if you practice for 20 years...& dont think the Kb will do the work for you versus your own talent as many many do! face it posting work here or anywhere is TABBOO in teh eyes of many players ....why? I have no idea....all this talk talk talk means squat without the hearing of it to solidify & bolster opinions & substantiate what the heck anyone is talking about....

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2009).]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndPwCTxKUgI&NR=1
for the Roland GW-8 styles etc.

Eddie....excactly

here try this one.....

Pa800
http://www.korg.de/?popup=9785&no_cache=1

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-04-2009).]

Look I threw it out there... To all the members I've talked to privately about this issue..., step up or not it's your choice. I told you guys I'd throw the bone out there. Obviously you're not going to get this from members here if you DON'T ASK FOR IT. If you don't want to step up then don't ask me again to throw your questions out there that you're too insecure to post yourselve. I dropped the bone for you guys... This is my last post on the issue.

I just want some of you guys to understand that this forum isn't just about people who perform with arrangers. There are a good number of home players who want you guys to post style only demos...., and could care less about all these Youtube demos with reps showing THEIR fluff and buff rather than the keyboard.

We always talk about being more open minded don't we..., not everyone here wants to hear your interpretations of a style. Some actually want to hear the styles by themselves without all the hoopla in the background.

Squeak no need to get upset & defensive so early in the morning but I think our point was proven by the online demos posted here on styles of all kinds.....

btw heres a great Tyros 3 style demo..non pro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuw9IktLCLE&feature=PlayList&p=37507BFB3E549725&playnext=1&index=47

OK...my HO.
I don't perform out. I am a average at best player. I have played on/off for 45 years for fun only. I am taking some lessons to improve my musical abilities. I am a pretty fair tech. person and I do enjoy a lot of aspects of my keyboard and music technology.

As far as demos...I really enjoy hearing others work...it's encouraging and fun to me.
When I hear a demo...I try to get what I can out of it...maybe playing style or technique, maybe sounds or styles of the instrument or maybe just to enjoy the music.

I am working on a couple pieces now that I will post when time is right...mostly because they are beautiful songs and ones I love to play. If someone enjoys them great.
The sounds/styles will be cool, if some like my playing...so much the better.

I look forward to anyone posting their work...it does not have to be totally PRO to be enjoyed by me...

Lee S.

I'm not mad at you guys Donny. I spoke out for quite a few people who I have been in contact with through private email from the forum. There are a lot of members here who are really insecure about posting questions because of all the bullshit we fight about here.

I threw the bone for them.., if they want to push the issue with you guys it's up to them. What gets me frustrated is I agreed to open the subject if they came out as well to support the request. Myself I wouldn't mind hearing just style demos from people here, but it's no real biggie to me.., but you'd be surprised how many members here who don't perform are tired of hearing performers only type demos. Maybe it's harder for you guys to get because well you're simply basing your responses from the position of someone who performs. The fence has two sides Again some people don't always want to hear how the arranger works for you, but want to hear it stripped so they can judge if the arrangers styles will work for them.

Again I'm not mad at you guys.., this issue isn't as important to me as a few others here..., but just because their numbers aren't as great as some others here doesn't make their needs less valid.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-04-2009).]

I deleted it because HOLY CRAP you'd be surprised how many LURKERS there are on this forum. Many of those who asked me to do this are daily lurkers and don't participate in the topics.

Right after a few people posted and the first responses weren't positive I was already getting EMAILS saying just "LET IT GO".., and not to worry about it... WOW..., talk about not seeing something through and giving up on an issue before it even gets off the ground.

I tell ya something.., if just two lurkers a day came out and started posting for the next 7 days.., by the end of the 7th day we wouldn't recognize anyone here

I just read this entire thread and have very little idea what you're talking about. I must have got to it too late. Why post something and then delete it so soon?
DonM

I too, have no idea what this is about. THEREFORE, let's not drag it out to multiple pages since the original, defining post has been deleted. Else it'll be another Seinfeld 'thread about nothing'.

chas

Don't worry guys you didn't really miss anything important...

Only point I got was the one about most user music having the RH sounds nearly drown out the accompaniment...

I must say, I keep posting about this. With as cheap as recording equipment is, with as advanced as the arranger 'capture' systems (whether audio or MIDI) are nowadays, there's really NO excuse for putting out stuff that obliterates that accompaniment. Simply record yourself, listen to the music as if you were listening to a CD or live band, and listen to the music as if you were one of the players in the band (not the soloist). Can you hear yourself AT ALL?

Chances are, no...

So you go back to the registration, turn down all the lead parts, and record again... NOW does it sound balanced? OK, 'write' the registration. Rinse and repeat. After doing this for long enough, you MIGHT finally get used to hearing yourself WITHIN a mix, rather than on top of it. If you don't, you are doomed to make the same mistake forever, as witnessed by most of the Youtube stuff out there.

It's not ALL about you...

THANK YOU DIKI! Before I removed my email from my profile I had quite a few lurkers pass my email address around.., and I've talked with them outside of the Zone answering questions. I was shocked to really find out the number of people who are tired of hearing all these arrangers with the RH just destroying the styles in the background. A surprising number of people here would really like to hear the styles by themselves or at least have the poster back off a bit.

I posted the question.., with the understanding several of the lurkers were going to come out of the woodwork and support the request... I just had that itch telling me this post would go south and go that way fast.

Man..., some of these people really LURK!!!! I was shocked at how fast those emails came back to me saying forget it

I think it's a valid issue...., but no hard feelings on my end. I threw the bone out for em and the chickens backed away.

You're spot on about many of the Youtube posts out there too. Video after video of arrangers where it seems like the player and the styles are in two completey different rooms.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-04-2009).]

But in all fairness, squeak, it's hard to demand decent mixing and self monitoring skills from people that barely have any playing skills either...

Usually, the better the player (on these demos), the more likely that what they play is mixed well as well. Most good players actually WANT to hear the accompaniment, not just themselves

It simply illustrates what a wide range of playing skills and ability arrangers get used by. To be honest, you don't see this much with WS's and stage pianos, etc.. Only the poor arranger tends to be abused by people with next to no ability at all What amazes me, though, is that, given how the accompaniment is the only decent thing being recorded, why on earth they want to hear themselves over the top of it to the point where it can't be heard!!

Diki in the initial post that's EXACTLY what I touched up. The obvious fact that we have varying degree of playing skills on the forum. So rather than go nuts soloing or not post in fear of your playing skills getting trashed to hell.., just post some styles from these arrangers for people to hear. However, the whole post is moot now if these lurkers will not come out and ask for it. I aint posting another one for em.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-04-2009).]

Whats the sense.as so many state that they strip down the styles to almost nothing anyway I think that makes them believe or substantiates them playing an arranger to themselves or their peers!!! I say let it rip....the more parts the better......it's called an arranger for a reason.

They might SAY that, John, but I sure as hell haven't heard it much in anyone's demos

It's rare you get anything much more than a single note RH solo and MAYBE a pad in the LH. Rest is the arranger. There's a good game being TALKED, but not much WALKING...

Diki...
I've been saying that for years here...
I can't believe you got it all right!
But be careful you might get blasted for saying it.. I see sharing music as an opportunity to learn, absorb, & appreciate more then anything else. I'm always open to learn NEW techniques...life is too short.

Shoot I remember once upon a time I got my arse kicked just for "suggesting" the possibility that some players here (after hearing posted demos) perhaps are buying arranger to cover for weaker playing skills...., and were relying HEAVILY on the styles.

Nothing wrong with that, squeak. After all, they are SUPPOSED to be fun for the less advanced player... And are often used by singers to back themselves up. To be honest, most of the time, it's still the singer's voice that people will remember. You've got to have some formidable playing chops before anyone will remember that in deference to the singing!

I just wish more of the 'beginner' players would try some self recording and adjust their registrations. Often it is little more than dropping 10-20 off the lead sound volumes, and they sound MUCH better...

Any of the 'lurkers' out there, simply TRY this... you'd be amazed

I totally disagree...more often than not, I just want a trio to back me...I don't want that big band over playing behind me on every tune....

Simplicity is more rewarding...and you can still create a great dance beat, after all you still have what drives the music..the bass and drums..just throw in a rhythm guitar, and play Rhodes over top..What else do you really need for most tunes?

Squeak, I am not one of the home players that emailed you, but I can see the value of pure style demos...I really don't care about what other people play over arranger parts..I just want to hear what the keyboard has to offer...

When the styles are to busy and the artist is over playing...it is so Yamahaish..

There's actually a fair number of people Fran who also want to hear styles only to see what the boards sound like without all the fluff. Sadly they're not coming forward. Oh well..., I put it out there for em.

Yamaha at least have a decent sized selection of style only demos on their Tyros website (at least for T2, haven't visited the T3 site for a while). In all fairness, anyone should be able to get a good impression from there...

Anyway, these guys should be bugging the manufacturer for style demos.

Diki,
So, what's wrong with that...we are not all PRO's.

So, If I post a song with mostly single note RH melody (Using beautiful sounds, of course) and mostly arranger in the LH it will be looked upon as not worth listening to???

If this forum is only for PRO players with high egos, maybe...a lot of us should leave right now.

Lee S.

Ahhhh...that's how I love to play my arranger, Lee...and it has been my experience as a clinician, that MOST players (pro and amateur) use them exactly the same way.

I've been using an arranger professionally for quite some time, starting with the Yamaha PS-6100 (a real old timer).

Ian

Leeboy, I don't think you read the entire thread. There's nothing wrong with how you play. What you missed was that that comment was for those who CLAIM that they like to strip out all the arranger parts, and play with just a minimal accompaniment. However, virtually no-one ever posts any music done like that.

Talk about thin skinned. Have another read of JUST my posts, and tell me where I say anything derogatory about using LH chords and RH solo...

The thing I go on about is how many (including pros) like to hear the lead voice mixed so loud you can barely hear the accompaniment. Something ANY of us can learn from...

You've got to quit making this an 'us and them' thing. This isn't 'pros versus joe's', this is a forum with players of all skill levels, from bare beginner to advanced player (don't mean they are pro, just advanced). If you take any advice and tips the more advanced players give out as a slight on your ability, well, you aren't ever going to learn a damn thing, are you...? I presume you aspire to try and play better? Have a little more self-esteem, and take what is talked about as an opportunity to get better, rather than a slight on your ability.

But feel free to leave if you are uncomfortable being around people that talk about more advanced playing or mixing techniques... I mean, you wouldn't want to accidentally pick up something useful, would you?

Exactly Diki well said......I only wish that years ago before arrangers came about that we had such great avenues like these forums to share thoughts and ideas on playing. We had to go it alone and hope that you could absorb anything you could from reading, watching other live acts, playing with friends etc etc ......I dont think some people here realize the great potential having all these levels pro to beginner in one easily accessible place to just push a button & ask a question where you can learn so much about arranger KB playing and beyond.

Diki,
Don't worry about my skin..it's plenty thick!

So...
'It's rare you get anything much more than a single note RH solo and MAYBE a pad in the LH. Rest is the arranger. There's a good game being TALKED, but not much WALKING...'

Sound a bit Krass to me...
Yes I read the whole thread...read it again yourself.

Actually your comments back from my post shows the kind of person you seem to be here anyways. Like you run the place?

I really don't think you realize how some of the stuff you write is seen by others...you thnk I'm the only one?? Dream on...I've even heard the complaints about it in person! (as current as today!)I usually just let stuff go by...I've seen how you get 'into it' with others here...

Sometimes the 'cocky crap' gets old.

Anyways let's move on...

Lee S.

Ahhh.... so it's only MY cocky crap that gets up your nose, eh?

Take a look at that beam in your own eye, Lee. I seldom like to talk about the TONE of other people's posts (unless they are being out and out abusive), and prefer to stick to the content. But I can assure you, there are plenty of members with 'tones' that get up my nose too...

I simply feel it is unlikely that bitching and whining about it is going to change much... Perhaps you feel differently..?

I could easily take a line or two you have posted out of context (like you just did... that's a multi-post point between me and a few others) and make you out to sound like a cocky arsehole, too... I prefer not to stoop to that level. Perhaps you feel differently?

However, lee, one thing I will probably never do is come onto a thread where I have had no involvement up to that point, and simply call you a douchebag... even if I thought it. Perhaps you feel different...?

I don't have to like you, you don't have to like me... you don't have to like squeak or Donny either (who were all making the same point). But let's just try to keep it to arrangers, eh? Then I won't have to tell you how much I dislike you, either... And won't the forum be better for that? Perhaps you feel different?

If you don't want to read what I post, you can easily skip it or hit the 'back' button. And I can do the same to you... Problem solved.

Diki,
This is a great forum...lots of knowledgable people. Some pretty heavy egos and personalities going on.
I'm not a trouble maker. Never have been.

I have followed many threads where you and/ or ohers have gotten into it with each other and have gotten real personal. I usually just laugh.

Many others have commented about this including the moderator. People on other forums have commented about it. (a lot more than you may realize)

I guess some people just like to be that way. I usually am not...but I guess you just pulled some out of me. Maybe because I have read so much of it in the past!

This is the only and 'last' time I have not stuck to arrangers since joining...how about you?

I never said I didn't like you...
I guess I just felt like calling you out on something I felt was derogitory to some of us. I play like you described (and so do lots of others)

If that wasn't your intent..I appologize.

Lee S.