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#256544 - 02/14/09 01:19 AM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Has he got any demos that are going to impress the 'right' people?

Or are the 'right' people people that don't NEED a demo? They can tell from stats and specs whether something is a great instrument to use or not...

You see, here's how it is for me... Maybe some of you are amazed at the MS's capabilities (or should we use the word 'possibilities'?), but I have been using VSTi's for years. I've been using beat creation loop tools for years. And I have been using arrangers for years. And the reason I use an arranger is as a live performance tool, simple, easy to use, comprehensive (or as close to it as possible) in it's style diversity, able to help me perform music in lots of different styles as easily as it can do it.

This AIN'T what this does. Sure, technically, it's an arranger. But it is tied to an 'open' system, that does not promote professional, great sounding styles, because the basic truth anyone knows that has tried to successfully translate styles across different manufacturers is that the style and the soundset it was created on are basically ONE.. The style is performed with the sounds, and played back on the same sounds. You get the intention of the creator, the composer, whatever, the drums have the correct sound, dynamics, volumes, timbre, the keyboard sounds reflect his playing, and if he made a great style, you can guarantee that on YOUR arranger (the one he wrote it on) it sounds great.

Now take that style, and put it on anything else. It NEVER sounds as good. Something is always out of whack (if the style had any dynamics and accurate use of the multisamples in the original sounds) when played back on different sounds. But the MS is ALL about using different sounds for the styles, it's core library is not as well integrated as even a T1. Supposedly, every owner loads this thing up with their favorite VSTi's, and hey presto! It sounds amazing...

And this is where the break from reality occurs. Because, so far, has ANYONE heard someone achieve this? I know, I know, THEORETICALLY, it ought to sound amazing. But alas, so far, after YEARS of it being out, there are fewer impressive demos of the MS up anywhere (there goes your 'this place is TOO intimidating' theory ) than the T3 which has been out a few months.

Now, I don't know about you, but I tend to take the number of decent user music (I SO hate the term 'demo'... just call it what it is - 'music') posted up as an indication of how easy it is to make music on it. If NO-ONE gets it good, doesn't that suggest that perhaps it AIN'T easy to make great sounding music on it? I just find it hard to believe that magically, MS's have only landed in the hands of those that CAN'T play worth a damn... Statistically, that's impossible. So if it's not the players, it must be the machine. Simple logic.

Dom time and time again demos great new features (so we are told) with unbelievably bad music made on it. Surely someone, somewhere, is going to make great music on this, if great music CAN be made. So far, not so much...

The most amazing thing I've heard so far on this thread is the idea that people are 'intimidated' into not posting their MS music here. If it IS good (by the standards of other competent arranger music posted here), who isn't plain ITCHING to prove me wrong...? Who wouldn't love to rub egg in my face, make me eat my words (I already promised I would, remember? If it sounds good, I'll say it!), show me up...?

I am not a big Yamaha fan. Doesn't intimidate anyone into not posting. I am not a big Korg fan. No shortage of posters. You know, just using a little simple logic BEFORE you post might avoid some of this flawed reasoning. Personally, I think the reason no-one has posted any great style music from the MS is because THERE ISN'T ANY!

Fran has standards... So, apparently, has everyone else here (how many is it, two, three? ) that has an MS.

Look, all the so-called 'defenders' here. Put up or... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Go buy an MS. Make some great music with it. Post it here (or anywhere). PROVE me wrong, quit trying to just argue it theoretically... My whole argument revolves around the lack of good user music. Make some, or at least admit that I MIGHT be right... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#256545 - 02/14/09 02:55 AM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
Robbe52 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Germany
I think Diki is absolutely right. I support his statements 100 percent. http://freenet-homepage.de/United2/

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#256546 - 02/14/09 05:02 AM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
If you read the rant, again, there is a predisposition that the MS would not work the way you think it should work so why should some one post? If most users are content to use arrangers as a glorified Karaoke machine, then putting up a demo would be pointless. Because if some one uses what ever sounds they want in the MS, create their own styles, puts up a demo that is good, and then what would we hear from the detractors, (it is not easy to make styles, how many people would be able to do what you did or my favorite one that can not be the MS; it sounds too real).

Again, if the T3 and Pa2x are used to compare the MS to, then putting up a demo is pointless because obviously some one is not understanding the point of the MS.

Just having knowledge about VSTs, audio loops beat machines, computer hardware and software, may be a distraction to truly understanding the MS.
You know that old saying what you know can hurt you.
_________________________
TTG

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#256547 - 02/14/09 06:03 AM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
Diki all of doms demos that show how quickly VSt's can be opened and used and also how loops can be created and edited without the use of external hardware have been impresssive. It just the arranger functions that have been less impressive.

I agree with much of what you say To the Genesys. But thats exactly why the MS is aimed at the wrong people .

"Because if some one uses what ever sounds they want in the MS, create their own styles, puts up a demo that is good, and then what would we hear from the detractors, (it is not easy to make styles, how many people would be able to do what you did.......'

The fact is it is not easy to make your own styles,( i make styles myself so i am not talking from a theoretical perspective) it is not cost or time efficient to buy all the best VSTs, edit them , balance them in the styles , EQ each and every style and each and every style variation and compose them so that they sound good in every possible chord type that you might use when playing. In an earlier post relating to the Audya i pointed to a glitch in the brass element of a funk/fusion style where the brass played an odd chord not in harmony with ther rest of the style and this is a style produced professionally and with A SOUND SET DESIGNED SPECIFALLY FOR THAT MACHINE....

The MS could be a great workstaion on the same basis as probably the Neko by Open Labs . Both could be great workstations. But ITS NOT A GREAT ARRANGER ...at least not yet. Dom is going to find it dificult selling what is screaming out as a workstation through and through to a mostly arranger market. Thats really the whole problem . I think the MS has great potential But it is not a finished product in terms of its arranger capabilities although the last few demos have shown that in terms of sound it is getting there. But its user interface and physical layout looks very complex and in itself may have been a barrier to potential arranger customers.



[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-14-2009).]

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#256548 - 02/14/09 06:41 AM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Why is that some of the posters on this site, assume that all arranger/organ players want a board that allows them to do what the manufacture says they can do.

Believe it or not, some people want to do what “They” want to do, not what the manufacture allows them to do.

In addition how many family’s would allow controllers, computers, speakers and a multitude of cables in the lounge. (Where most arranger/organs reside)

Regards

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#256549 - 02/14/09 08:27 AM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
Magica Alfa Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 259
Abacus I agree with you.

All SZ open your mind for new things at last.

BR

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#256550 - 02/14/09 01:27 PM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Arranger, workstation, VSTi setup... You all have got it wrong. They aren't made to do different things. They are all for the EXACT same thing

MAKING MUSIC...

That's what I don't get. Most seem to have little problem making music on an arranger. And go to any of the sites for WS's like the MoXS, M3, FantomG, etc., there's no shortage of people happy to show the world the music they have made on their WS. Go to many of the VSTi sites, and you'll see plenty of user submitted music.

So where is the great music made on the MS?

You see, very few great musicians are rocket scientists. Although theoretically an MS MIGHT be the right tool for many different jobs, it has to be easy to operate, intuitive to create music on it, and an efficient workflow for it to be picked up by top musicians. I have never heard ANY owner claim these for it! Secondly, if this really IS a great WS (it COULD happen ), few WS users buy arrangers, despite actually being very good in a WS role (they got to get past those arranger controls and the banks of cheesy ballroom and schlager styles!) as long as you make music they are best at.

Look, watch the TV... go out to a major concert. You see very few Neko's out there, too. Apparently, the top pros STILL prefer the ease and convenience of a WS or modeled (or real!) analog synth for performing over even a computer based WS, let alone a computer based arranger... I personally don't believe that the MS is being marketed to the wrong customer. I just happen to believe that the right customer doesn't yet exist

Perhaps those that have great trouble making good music on an arranger might look to this as some kind of technological 'fix' (best of luck with that one), but those that can already make good music realize that a) it isn't what a real arranger is, a content delivery system to assist live music performance, and b) if you need loops, arps and computer based music production, a computer is STILL the easiest and cheapest way to do this. Look how many electronica artists use laptops on stage. THAT is the tool of choice for that market. We are rapidly running out of people that this product IS right for.

It is marketed as an arranger. A vast majority of it's features and workflow are arranger orientated, it is designed to BE an arranger. If it walks like a duck...

If there IS some mythical musician that this product is the perfect tool for making music on, somehow, not one seems to have made it into their hands. There seems to be no shortage of the WRONG hands for this to be in, though. Ergo the demos. Or lack thereof

It's simple. If no-one ever posted any good music, pleasant to listen to, well balanced and realistic sounding, on a T3 EVER, and all the factory demos sounded like Dom's, we would all be sitting around here slagging the T3. But we don't, because the T3 CAN make great music, even in the hands of average players, and in the hands of great players (Yamaha's demos) it sounds fantastic.

I only wish that we held the MS to the same standards. Then maybe, just maybe, Dom might quit making endless upgrades to the OS, and spent his money instead on great sounds and styles that are integrated. Load it up with a standardized set of top quality VSTi's at the factory, EZDrummer, Garritan Jazz Band, Garritan Personal Orchestra, things like that, and then have styles developed specifically for those VSTi's. Then, and ONLY then, will it sound good in the hands of real players, not these mythical 'right people' that mysteriously have not made any decent music on it.

Why do I dominate the MS threads (at least by posting )? Because I am Dom's target buyer to a 'T'. An arranger user, that also does studio work, works extensively with electronic music production, has experience using and appreciating the power of VSTi's, and uses loops in some production work. The trouble is, of course, this also puts me in the perfect position to realize where the flaws in the ointment are. And so far, the core library, and the styles developed for it are the weak point, and probably contribute considerably to the dearth of decent music posted. I've already GOT a decent VSTi setup. I've already GOT the loop tools I need and use. And if I decide to go out live with that type of music, I can use a laptop to do it.

But if I'm going to ponk down a fortune for a hardware keyboard, it has to at least do it's PRIMARY function, that of being a great arranger first and foremost. Which it patently DOES NOT. Why am I posting all the time..? Because I want it to WORK. I want Dom to wake up and realize that, if the arranger WAS as good as all the other TOTL arranger at what THEY do best, the world would be beating a path to his door. With me at the head of it. But until it does, I can only act as the sand in the Vaseline, the itch you can't scratch, the buzzing fly that won't go away.

And maybe, just maybe, if some of you got off your dream couches, and took an objective look at the reality of the MS, not it's 'promise', 'possibilities' or 'potential', maybe you could encourage Dom to actually pay some attention to what REAL players want, not some mythical player that so far fails to have materialized...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#256551 - 02/14/09 02:17 PM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
ChicoBrasil Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/01
Posts: 993
Loc: Belo Horizonte,Minas Gerais,Br...
Nigel wrote:
"And the self appointed MS policeman kicks in once again. Your life must really be lacking for this to have become your only mission ... which it really seems to be when we see you are always the dominating poster on ALL MS threads. We don't hear much about the pros or cons of your G70 including style demos of it from you but you seem compulsively determined to count MS demos from others. If I am mistaken please point me to the videos of you demonstrating the G70 .... I guess I must have missed them."

Very well said Nigel.
I'm feeling really tired of reading posts where people want to teach us what is right, what is wrong.What kind of keyboard is good, what is not.
These people forget that the right of free choice is healthy.
Besides, I do not see from these people, performances that make them able to dictate rules.
Lots of bla bla bla and few music.
Chico

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#256552 - 02/14/09 02:32 PM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by ChicoBrasil:
Besides, I do not see from these people, performances that make them able to dictate rules.
Lots of bla bla bla and few music.
Chico


Exactly Chico very well said....
& nothing new here. Great post.

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#256553 - 02/14/09 02:52 PM Re: Fran Congrats on your New Media Station!
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5511
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Like what Diki says, or not,he is seldom wrong. Sometimes a naysayer is needed to get a balanced answer.
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pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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