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#255446 - 02/01/09 03:36 PM How Audya handles live guitar track
mrdave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Rimini, Italy
So, here's the answer:

Along with all the instruments wave data, there are recorded hundreds of guitar riffs and chords in all tonalities, but... only Maj and Min chords are present, with some exceptions.
So, for the most part of guitar loops you got only Maj and Min versions. How do they create other chords? Simply... for chords that have note added (lik 6, 7, 9...) they simply add a MIDI note in the correct position along with the chord. For example if you play a C7, you get the CMaj guitar along with a midi guitar that plays the A# note. If you play CMin7, the same... you get the Min chord + the MIDI A# note.
But for other chords that don't have additions, like C4, Cdim, CAug for example, all the loop is played by MIDI and you can clearly hear the live guitar absence in some styles where the live guitar is predominant.
as I told before, I found a few exceptions (bossa and samba riffs) where playing a 7th chord brings up a different sample instead of adding the midi note.
Other samples, notably the rock ones have only one version played regardless of Maj or Min chords.

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 02-01-2009).]

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#255447 - 02/01/09 04:07 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
FAEbGBD Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 847
Loc: Nashvville TN
So in other words, if you're doing standard pop or rock or country, don't use those crazy chords that only jazzers use, and you'll be fine. I can't think of the last Nickel Back song I've heard with a dim or aug chord. But to not have suspended chords is really not good. The entire method seems to be rather less than stellar in my mind; a neat idea, but this is the kind of thing that would require several gigs of harddrive space to get right. I mean, even a seventh chord isn't going to sound right, because the voicing will be all wrong; the guitar will suddenly have 7 strings. Yeah, how many people are actually gonna notice that, but still.

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#255448 - 02/01/09 05:33 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
mrdave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Rimini, Italy
Yes... I like sus4 chords and hearing guitar suddenly disappear isn't really nice...(as I said on styles where the live guitar is predominant, like the unplugged ones, playing a sus4 chord give a noticeable difference....
Regarding space, the guitar parts take a little more of 128MB of wavetable data.

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 02-01-2009).]

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#255449 - 02/01/09 10:14 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 5952
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi MRDave,
interesting the way they've done it.

Do the drums still work the same way as on the SD1+ ie 1 track forof Live Drums( which I think may be based on sliced audio loops???)
& midi drums on the other drum track to give variety.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mrdave:
[B]



------------------
best wishes
Rikki

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PA800_StyleMaking/
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Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#255450 - 02/01/09 11:44 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13847
Loc: NW Florida
Damn...! I was SO hoping to be proved a complete idiot (or at least, several others here were! )

Seriously, even though the system works kind of how I expected, I AM disappointed that they couldn't even record a simple open fifth pattern, and a diminished, which would allow sus4, open9, etc. without a complete drop out of the audio.

I guess now, the audio loop depends very much on how well the MIDI guitar samples are matched to the audio ones. I could still work, don't get me wrong. But it's a lot harder to not hear those dropouts, I suppose... At least it explains those simplistic guitar only demos. That IS all that there is

But I honestly am not happy. I really was hoping that this WAS more complex than this, and worked the way we all HOPED it would work (with audio loops at least for MOST of the main chord types). I would be MUCH happier were I proved completely wrong about the whole thing.

Damn...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#255451 - 02/02/09 01:20 AM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Perfect for me, never managed to put more than 3 of my left hand fingers on the keyboard in time to produce a 7th. By the time the brain has calculated what has to be done, what finger goes where, the next chord has come up...!!!!!!!!

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#255452 - 02/02/09 07:53 AM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Tom Cavanaugh Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/06/99
Posts: 2133
Loc: Muskegon, MI
Diki,

It is starting to look like you are correct. I never thought you were an idiot, and if I left that impression I am sorry. I wanted you to be wrong because it would have been a quantum leap in arranger technology for all of us. It wasn't personal on my part. I just felt you should have waited until the Audya was released in America before people started ripping it. I would feel that way about any company's product. As I have stated in other posts I still feel you are probably the most technically knowledgable person on the forum. If what mrdave says is true, the next best thing has eluded us. Too bad for us.

Tom
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#255453 - 02/02/09 01:31 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
so i guess this is the reason for the hush-hush on this topic from Ketron,

ye it does play all chords, we know that, but "how" is what Diki and I and many others wanted to know...

coming out and saying or admitting the following would not be cool:

well if you play a C maj chord it plays a beautiful full audio guitar loop, and then if you wanna get "fancy" and play a C dim, well you get all Midi, No audio"

i wish i only knew how to play, Major and minor chords :-(

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#255454 - 02/02/09 01:37 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13847
Loc: NW Florida
No problem, Tom... it's just that this forum is global, and I tend to think that way. Once a product is released ANYWHERE, I feel it is on us as 'good consumers' to make sure the hype matches the reality.

Waiting until it eventually gets to the US shores (however long THAT might take) is doing our European and elsewhere brothers a disservice...

And I'm sorry, but I still don't see well informed skepticism as a 'rip'. When an arranger company claims to have solved a problem that so far, no software VSTi (or the like) company has managed to successfully pull off (low latency live interactive guitar parts from audio loops - don't get me wrong, they are good, but IMO still not good enough for live), and I have experience using some of these, I feel questioning and inquiring about the feature to be important. It doesn't mean I don't WANT the feature to work. Just that, when no-one else has succeeded, belief comes a little harder.

Like I said, I honestly DO wish that I had been completely wrong...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#255455 - 02/02/09 01:44 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
Diki,

maybe it's not too late for Ketron to get those musicians back into the studio to finish up recording those "complex" chords ;-)

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#255456 - 02/02/09 02:29 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13847
Loc: NW Florida
mrdave... you have said that some styles have guitar parts with more choices of chords. Is it possible that maybe the Latin and Jazz styles actually DO feature more audio chords? Or that it? Same set for everything?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#255457 - 02/02/09 02:33 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
now that the "cat is out of the bag",
perhaps AJ/Ketron can enlighten us some more ???

or do we have to KEEP waiting and rely on the USERS to figure everything out themselves ???

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#255458 - 02/02/09 02:42 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Rolman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Germany
How great is the difference to that playing along with a mp3/wave file? Just a question!
Greatings
Peter

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#255459 - 02/02/09 03:03 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
Rolman,

not sure i understand your question,

but we are talking about arranger performance, meaning changing chords with left hand and it follows your chord changes, so you can play a song or a chain of songs, any way you feel like for as long as you want...

playing an mp3/wav is just that, it plays the song like it is, and is always same length, and always sounds same,

playing/mp3 wave has nothing to do with this topic of how Audya handles guitar track in Real Time, real-time chord changes

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#255460 - 02/02/09 06:35 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Robbo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
OK now please Ketron / AJ you need to show explicitly, what the matching midi will sound like when changing from the MAJ/MIN variation. I mean I have listened to the Audya sounds great, but I need to hear the difference before I would put my money on the line

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#255461 - 02/02/09 07:06 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Nedim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
Its all good but...noone mentioned...that AUDIO TO MIDI on
more complex chords, how is it gonna work when starting to create
User Styles?
Instead of charging 5$ per style we'll have to charge 20$?
And guess why, you already know, it creates 4 times mote the job
then a regular style...
If i use Factory loop for something, then what and how the hell
am i gonna create CVs for
other chords??? And i have to browse thruout all of the sound samples
to find the right Patch to
change the existing loop
in a complex chord? This is getting funny with Audya.
_________________________
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#255462 - 02/02/09 07:07 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Interesting, That helps me decide...

I'm keeping my Pa2XPRO...it amazes me more each day...I'm glad I have dug in and learned it well. Just completed a neat style using some of my own sounds I made...and I am working on a triple strike piano right now with every key sampled X 3. Have made a cool DNC Bari sax also.

I don't really want some of my guitar parts 'going away' on me!

Lee
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Lee S.

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#255463 - 02/02/09 08:07 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
The truth finally comes out, eh? I think it might have behooved Ketron to fess up about all of this a couple years ago, which would have eased the impact of these Audya oddities by the time it was finally released to the public. Now that the truth has just recently been revealed (no thanks to Ketron) the shear brunt of the blow is hitting the consumer smack in the face, just when the Audya is set to be released worldwide. Which, in my opinion, causes not only resentment toward the manufacturer for hiding the information from the get go, but also it discourages many consumers from now possibly purchasing the Audya because of the big letdown of what the Audya can and cannot do. Of course the emphasis is on what it "can't" do as opposed to what it can do, realizing that 99.9% of keyboard musicians play more complex chords than just major and minor ones, and on a regular basis I would think too. I know I do.

Hopefully Ketron will stay afloat long enough to amend the deficiencies in the Audya on their next model e.g. the Audya {Part Deux}, etc. Although if the current Audya sells reasonably well as is then Ketron really won't have a compelling reason to correct the anomalies of the current version. Which would be business as usual I suppose, correct?

>> I kind of feel bad for Ketron. I really do. I honestly hope they do okay with the sales of the Audya too. I would really like to see them recoup their R&D and other costs that they have put into it and that they indeed stay afloat for many, many years to come, and with many more successive high end arranger models in the future being built.

Competition is good for the whole industry and there continues to be many innovative features and advancements in technology coming out of Ancona, Italy from Ketron.

Hopefully there will be many more.

All the best, Mike
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#255464 - 02/02/09 09:21 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
I believe that the Audya can be upgraded with more audio loops and styles. If that's the case I think Ketron should make us aware that more audio loops are coming (ie.complex chords.). I think I speak for most people here in saying that we like honesty. Straight answers. Ketron let your customers know what's up. Because they can male or break you. So what can we expect as far as Audya. Upgradability? Can we record our own styles and audio loops via an Audya software? Give us the facts already.

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#255465 - 02/02/09 10:32 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Robbo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
Aw now come on dont be so hard on Ketron! this is new Tech, and it is exciting, its just that at the moment only Major and Minors are using the real audio, remember the drums and bass are fantastic, and if this board was the same price as T3 Aus $4500 bet they would sell a heap. Really its just the price thats the barrier to overcomming the shortcommings of the board. It has many fantastic features, as well as the Audio Loops but $7k Aust, sorry I dont think so Ketron.

There is a great market for them, but they really need to get that price down to a competative level. The one thing I learn from Arrangers is that you have to develop every style to suit both the player/singer and the song Gentre. So not all have the loops, as long as the midi is good and I believe this to be the case having the SD3, that should overcome. So you cant do more complex chords yet, but it has style, and great sounds along with 6 octaves, very up to date hardware, and expandable to get the new developments into it. As I said most working muso's need a backup, price is the barrier here

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#255466 - 02/03/09 12:04 AM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
Well now is the time for Ketron to tell us about all the other fantastic features that the keyboard has. The audio loop thing was the only standout feature that i was aware of and it turns out that it is much more limited than i first believed. so what else makes the Ketron a great Keyboard ?

Anyone ?

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#255467 - 02/03/09 02:20 AM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 5952
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Nedim,
hopefully the software that was mentioned in one of the threads will help.

Starting to sound like style creation on the Audya is even less user friendly than on my sd1+

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by Nedim:
Its all good but...noone mentioned...that AUDIO TO MIDI on
more complex chords, how is it gonna work when starting to create
User Styles?
Instead of charging 5$ per style we'll have to charge 20$?
And guess why, you already know, it creates 4 times mote the job
then a regular style...
If i use Factory loop for something, then what and how the hell
am i gonna create CVs for
other chords??? And i have to browse thruout all of the sound samples
to find the right Patch to
change the existing loop
in a complex chord? This is getting funny with Audya.
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#255468 - 02/03/09 02:33 AM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 5952
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Spalding,
Ive only got the SD1+, the Live Drums do stand out on a Ketron.

With the right drum audio loops, I think something could be done on the PA800/2X as well with the Groove function.( optimism haahaa)

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:
Well now is the time for Ketron to tell us about all the other fantastic features that the keyboard has. The audio loop thing was the only standout feature that i was aware of and it turns out that it is much more limited than i first believed. so what else makes the Ketron a great Keyboard ?

Anyone ?
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#255469 - 02/03/09 02:45 AM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43681
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:
so what else makes the Ketron a great Keyboard ?


The Person Playing it!
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/2819613151594818

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#255470 - 02/03/09 05:49 AM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
No you are right rikkisbears. The Korg can sample and accept drum loops and chop them up and enable the user to not only use commercially available loops but also create your own drum kits. There must be more to the Audya than what has been promoted so far. If not ythen Ketron took a HUGE gamble on marketing the instrument purely on its ability to play limited audio loops. I reckon there is more info to come . There has to be......

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#255471 - 02/03/09 07:01 AM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Nedim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
Well i worked on 2 Ketron Models for the company itself but
they were both based on SD5, then i used the other machines too
for personal use...wasnt impressed much by the way styles are
created and nothing is compatible with NOTHING.
They have good Built and good Sounds, probably the best but their OS
was written by Hitler's scientists i guess.
The synths even feel and look like tanks.
_________________________
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL.
2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.

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#255472 - 02/03/09 07:46 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
Nedim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1144
Loc: Staten Island, NYC
...

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 02-04-2009).]
_________________________
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL.
2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.

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#255473 - 02/04/09 06:10 PM Re: How Audya handles live guitar track
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Let's hope that regular (or at least ONE more....) firmware upgrades to both the OS and Sounds are forthcoming....

Maybe that was the plan all along?

I'm not writing this keyboard off yet.
(But yes, screw THAT price...lol)
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BUT...

www.chi-chi.com.au

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