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#255375 - 02/05/09 01:21 PM Re: Audya at home
leezone Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
and hence this "rush" to push this out NOW, no matter how COMPLEX the situation...

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#255376 - 02/05/09 01:46 PM Re: Audya at home
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13847
Loc: NW Florida
Now hold on a minute...!

All I have been talking about and criticizing is just the ONE issue, which, although not perfect, may still do the job. Not as well as we wish, maybe even not well enough to persuade some to abandon traditional arrangers... But at no time have I said that this thing a) isn't finished (in fact, I have stated that all the work mitigating the drop outs indicates that this IS how it is going to work), or b) that it isn't potentially still a great arranger.

All the conjecture about it being 'unfinished' is simply that. In fact, with units actually shipping, that seems highly unlikely. Sure, mrdave may have a beta unit to tryout, but you guys got to hear AJ IN PERSON at the Jam. He ever say for one minute that it was a beta unit? He say for one minute that finished units would sound or work better?

Let's step back a little before wild conjecture about it morphs into general accepted FACT (which it ain't!).

It impressed the hell out of everybody at Shreveport. Doesn't that count for SOMETHING?

All I have ever commented on is firstly, the general disadvantages of audio loop technology, and then the likelihood of Ketron being able to pull off the technological feat that has eluded most VSTi guitar loop collections. Unfortunately, the deliberately evasive (one can only assume that) 'answers' to my questions that AJ provided - he never would say the audio loops would play most chords, just that the Audya itself played them ALL - kind of propelled what was a simple inquiry into another realm.

But this ONE issue aside (I'm sorry, but USB2/1 issues wouldn't have been more than an offline inconvenience, IMO), what else about the Audya isn't satisfactory? The demos blew everyone away. The Jam debut blew most away. It's a jet. Maybe not a supersonic jet like we all expected, but a jet nonetheless.

Let's put it this way... I STILL haven't completely ruled it out as a possible purchase. Sure, I'm less enthusiastic now the loops have this glaring hole, but it didn't stop the demos from being outstanding. Let's simply stick to criticizing what we know about, and let wild speculation (all Audya's are beta units? PLEASE...!) die the death it deserves. There's MORE than enough info to make INFORMED criticism.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#255377 - 02/06/09 12:14 AM Re: Audya at home
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
So Diki, may I know from you wich is the best VST/ASIO guitar loops engine that can resolve this all chords arranger issue?

I will then try to install and testing.
If then really will work so nice, we can also integrated the feature on the MS core, how we made for the B4 II Asio.

Just suggest me the best one possibility.

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#255378 - 02/06/09 12:52 AM Re: Audya at home
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13847
Loc: NW Florida
Unfortunately, Dom, I really don't know of any! I guess that was one of the major points in my skepticism of Ketron's claim. They can work pretty well offline, but when you use them in realtime. low latency streaming issues and the need to respond INSTANTLY to chord changes make all kinds of glitches appear. Of course, on a studio project, you don't HAVE to get glitch free on the live pass, because you can then render offline afterwards and get the perfect export.

Add to that that I really don't know of any guitar loop VSTi players that are NEARLY as comprehensive as an arranger player needs for the vastly different musics that arranger players from all over the world play, and I really don't see a comprehensive solution...

You see, the hiphop musician works with the loops he has, and creates music based around those. But arranger players tend to want to play stuff already composed, so the choices need to be comprehensive. Jazz playing, folk and alternative, latin, rock ska, ethnic... Just too many choices, IMO.

I don't honestly encourage you down this path. Firstly, I think it is going to be prohibitively expensive to produce the library (seeing as no-one makes one off the shelf), technologically difficult to implement in realtime, and as I have been saying for a while now, things like Roland's Guitar Mode (which will change guitar neck positions depending on how high up you play the trigger chord on the keyboard) and Korg's Guitar Mode (which DOES work in arranger mode), and the new dedicated guitar NTT's on the T3, coupled with detailed samples and the Mega Voice like muting and sample noises technology seems a FAR easier technology to implement and improve. And can sound, even with the low ROM sounds that ROMplers typically use, very realistic. I just think this technology, tied to the MS's ability to load MUCH, much larger sample sets (hence greater detail) is the better course.

Especially for a keyboard like yours, where you promote (almost insist!) that the owner customize the content, loops are just too hard to edit and customize, whereas MIDI files triggering Guitar Modes are as easy as altering a string line... I can't see someone picky enough to want an MS being content with a small, uneditable guitar loop library, unless their stylistic needs are quite narrow.

But there's ONE caveat... You will probably have to develop this yourself. Unfortunately, the sound, the technology to use that sound, and the data to play the sound are all inextricably linked. It's next to impossible to get Yamaha Mega Voice technology to trigger Korg DNC Guitar Mode voices and get an acceptable result (and vice versa) and Roland is another system altogether. This is just one of those things that have to all work together, it can't be cobbled together out of off the shelf parts.

I'm afraid there is no easy solution.

But you might at least check out Steinberg's Virtual Guitarist2 (although users report bugs), AAS's Strum (Mac only, though, I think) or MusicLab RealGuitar & RealStrat. Just don't expect great realtime performance...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#255379 - 02/06/09 01:59 AM Re: Audya at home
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Maybe then give one simple solution..
Use the Realguitar, Guitar Ring 2.. and record each chord root key under wave file...

Define by default the range keys where this all root keys chords have to be played.
Drag&Drop this all files under Gigastudio and create a new GIG file of the Guitar sound type desidered.

For Each chord type ( like Maj, Min, 7th..and so on..) add a new gigastudio Layer switch controlled by Midi CC.

So...for switch chords root keys ( transpose) is really simple, because need only send the new global transpose.

For change Chords Layers we have only to add on qranger code the relatve midi CC number and when a new chord layer is pressed, we send also this new midi CC.
Linuxsampler in realtime will also switch in realtime the chords layers.
Under GIGA format the file can be bigger how much we need, like the Bosendorfer 290, 1800Mb and 16 Layers switch, will preload in cache just in some seconds, or persisten realtime on cache RAM.

the only problem that I see is the BPM change..
IF I will take this way with the GIGA format, we have to include the commercial Zplane.de Elastique plugin engine inside the Linuxsampler GIG too.

I will see if they allow me to include...

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