Audya at home

Tonight I got the Audya to my home to have some fun and... I did some tests and figured out how live guitar part works... and it lost all its magic...

Other things:
1) USB to-device interface is 1.1 (at least my PC sees the keyboard as a 1.1 device, and takes forever to copy large files to and from Audya HD)...

2) Audio drums give a real "live" feel on style play but... many repetitions on styles, there are styles that have the same drums fill-ins and breaks... and the same guitar grooves, somewhat annoying... but I have to say... I heard real guitarists playing backing parts and they also were playing nearly the same grooves for similar songs....

Thanks for the info....hope to hear more

First, congrats with your new "baby"

Lost all it's magic .... to me that sound like a let-down or disappointment when you write it that way.
In other words, not as expected?

USB device (after a lot of postings about it) I think I remember was stated out to be 2.0?
Another down-trip for some?

If the many repetitions of styles and bacing are too easily recognizable, it's sure a lot of work to be
done to make it sound as you like? Hopefully easy to edit?
SD-1 also sound like the "same band" playing when change styles etc, that's good in my humble opinion,
but styles are sure not similiar when change from one to another rythm group.

Looking forward to more information, both the disappointments and the amazements. Nice to know about if
or when this "wondermachine" arrive this part of the world.

Happy Playing & Posting
GJ

Btw, any software for edit via PC (or Mac) in the box?
And what's the price in shops in Italy?

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 02-01-2009).]

So what is the story on the live giutar parts?

I didn't buy it, a friend of mine gave it to me to test in for this weekend.



Well.. I didn't tell the full story... since I'm a computer programmer, I would like to know how this thing works internally, and when I was hearing the demos I figured out various ways how they could implement this. Now that I have the real thing, I was able to get all sample data from the HD and figured out almos everything, so the "magic" refers to programming, not sounds...


Well... the device gets recognized as a full speed device (1.1), so I guess it isn't 2.0.
This isn't really a problem to transfer .mid files or even .mp3, but if you have to put .wavs or big files this could impact you.



The most noticeable (at least for me) is the repetitions on the guitar grooves, but I think majority of people won't recognize this when hearing, since this is not really noticeable when the style is playing with full backing accompainment, most people won't even notice when a player is really playing or using midi files..


By now... still no software.
The list price is around 3900 euros.


P.S.
There isn't a ROM for sounds, all PCM data is on the hard disk, so Ketron can issue updates on sounds also. This is a big pro for future upgradeability (but... I remember that GEM Genesys had this capability as well but Generalmusic never issued sounds updates.... ).

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 02-01-2009).]

MrDave,

From your experience so far, how do the Audya's audio tracks handle complex chords?

Ian

For $5000.00 I would have thought a much more glowing review.

That's more like it, and would probably make me go for it at once when it find the way to this
country.
However, when use the current rates of the € today, the price in musicstores here are set to
N.KR. 59.950,- = € 6754 !!
The offer price is N.Kr 50.900,- who is € 5.733.

My guess is that they send each item separately by Taxi, besides of that the Norwegian taxes are
quite high.

GJ

Btw, a Tyros 3 are set to "full price" € 4.573 and sell for € 4.043, even as "low" as € 3.367,
same as Korg PAX2 Pro in musicstores here, so as I've said before, if the price stand like that
we can buy both T3 and PAX2 pro for the same amount of money as one Audya.!!!
Wonder if the Audya will sell a lot if this going to be the real price here.......

If Audya proves itself above the rest it will sell on its merits no problem.....but if not....well you know the rest

Anyone of you, do you think the audya will be at the shop in next week, here in Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

Mmmmm, that's what we all waiting for, to see, hear and find out about. So far I'm not sure if
it's worth the big gap in price that is forecasted here. Only time will tell.
If not, I guess there will be some quite lower priced 2nd hand items to find real soon.... as
well as that Ketron probably have to start think about what to do next.



Well, I made a joke about April 1st in a tread, but did not mention any year.
Anyway, at a Norwegian musicstore webshop they say during February. If so, probably most of the
Scandinavian market will have it same time, depending of how many items there is produced ready
to ship around the world.

GJ

So, why don't you tell us how the guitar system works?

Also,with all the pcm data on hd, copying them would be a breeze,

on the other hand, you may be able to substitute some sounds with yours.

I am not that really concerned about HOW the guitar feature works from a programming standpoint, but I would LOVE to simply hear it put through some more complex steps than those shown on the Ketron site.

Any chance of a quick demo?

One other thing piques my curiosity. You state that there is no ROM sounds, they all reside on HD? In which case, how long does it take to boot up? I guess if you are correct, it has to load them in...

Finally (for now, anyway ), if you have an Akai sample disk or two, can you measure how long it takes to load up say 32MB of sample data..? Transfer to HD, then load, I suppose, to give a real world figure (CDROM drives are SO slow!)

Actually, if your report that the ROM loads from HD, this actually gives me some hope that samples may be loaded up a LOT faster than most other arrangers (even if the RAM limit is puny by modern standards). If there is indeed several hundred MB of ROM sounds, at T3 or Korg speeds that would still take several minutes to load (20+). Surely boot up is quicker than THAT, so it makes sense that the data pipe to the RAM could be fairly zippy...

Thanks for your info.

More, more, more! (Thank you, Andrea True!)

Sorry bro but thats wrong, Audya works on the known way as any other
ROMPLER does, what you heard from HD is the SuperSolos and they, ONLY
they come from HD. Audya has its own ROM and i even know its size.
And remember, what you have is not even 40% of the final Release
of the Audya, its nowhere near the unit that people will buy, the one you
tried is probably same as this one if not less.



[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 02-04-2009).]

ok,

my question is:

how far along is AUDYA?
are all styles created?
are we still recording? complex chords maybe?
all sounds finalized?
Nedim, says 40%

i thought this thing was shipping now in Europe, and end of Feb. in US

and the AUDYA in Portugal? how complete is that one? 40%

can we PLEASE get a SIMPLE answer?
AJ? Ketron?

What is the progress and status of this?

So much for being cutting edge in the 21st Century huh? And this is just one more case of an obvious blunder by Ketron. And Ketron has acknowledged as much because they did everything in their power to cover it up by trying to hide the information from becoming known to the public. I figured as much i.e. NO USB 2.0 and I guess I was right.

For future reference, if AJ doesn't answer a specific question regarding one of Ketron's up and coming products I suppose we can all assume that whatever we thought the product might have i.e. USB 2.0, complex chord audio loops recognition, etc., it really won't have it, because of AJ's refusal to answer the question. And again, I don't blame AJ or Theodore in New York aka Ted, because they are simply following orders and were under a gag order from Ancona, Italy to keep their lips shut. Nevertheless, that will be our indicator i.e. "zipped lips" that what we thought an upcoming Ketron product would have - it most assuredly won't I reckon. And the vehicle at our disposal to verify it as such is the utter "silence" we will hear (or rather NOT hear) on the subject from Ketron and company.

What a silly way to run a company in my opinion. Being so secretive and all. What, are they so ashamed of their product that they aren't willing to acknowledge it might have possible shortcomings? As if every other product on the planet happens to be inherently perfect, right? Wrong.

We're adults you know. We can take the good WITH the bad. It's okay. We'll understand (eventually.. ) why it is you only gave the Audya USB 1.1. What we don't understand is: why were you being so secretive about it? Bad news is bad news and I understand you being hesitant about revealing flaws or inconsistencies about your pride and joy - BUT, lo and behold, the truth came out anyway right? Your obstruction of the facts by willfully withholding the truth is ultimately what is causing consumers to go ballistic and negative towards you as a company, and may prove to be your downfall in the end. Hopefully you guys in Ancona, Italy will wake up and realize that, because the lack of transparency with the very public you are trying to persuade to buy your products may cause a rift so wide that you cannot mend it. Which would be a pity really, because we would all like to see Ketron survive and thrive as a well known and respected company, and as a technology innovator of keyboard products for the 21st Century. The choice is yours.

All the best, Mike

This is going to be another example of how to waste perfectly good R&D dollars. At least they did not spend much on advertising! On the other hand, it might be an example of venture capitalism. We'll see what happens!

[This message has been edited by hitman (edited 02-03-2009).]

[This message has been edited by hitman (edited 02-03-2009).]

I believe it truly is a step in the right direction (although more on that later)... unfortunately, not a long enough step to appease most players, I fear. I can understand Ketron's desire to expand their whole audio loop concept to include musical loops, but surely SOMEBODY at Ketron spoke up and said that, if the system can't handle all the basic chords (and by basic, I don't mean just major and minor!), it might be better to wait until it COULD..?

Ketron's main mistake, I guess, was getting ahead of themselves, announcing the imminent arrival YEARS before delivery, and announcing it's capabilities (in fact exaggerating them - initially, this this was supposed to do audio loops on several parts at the same time) before they even knew it could do them at all.

Obviously, they have run into the wall some of us talked about. Even if the technical hurdles were overcome, the artistic one of producing the sheer quantity of loops to pull this feat off are formidable. Not to mention that an arranger, as a performing tool, is required to do vastly different musics from all over the world. Supplying audio loops for all those different needs, at an affordable price never seemed likely, and a good supply of what is needed simply is NOT available from third party loop jockeys, who rarely ever are even close to comprehensive in their selection of chord types and tempi...

This is all well and good when you are making music that CAN be shaped and directed by the loops available (hiphop, anyone? ), but arranger players tend to use their arrangers to play songs already composed, whereupon, if a critical chord type is missing, you are boned

Sadly, they WERE onto a very good thing. The use of audio loops for drum parts doesn't need anywhere NEAR the computer power to use in an arranger, not needing transposition or different chord types to function. Perhaps if the Audya had merely expanded on that, with audio loops for each and every style, and a vast and expanding (and easy to produce) selection of styles, and had given up on the guitar stuff until streaming technology was mature enough to at least play all the main chord types, this might have been a more timely product (and in today's economic climate, that would have made it more profitable) that would STILL have blown the competition away.

I guess we will never know...

In the meantime, I hope other manufacturers don't go down this path. I honestly DO think that Korg, Yamaha and to a lesser extent Roland (who have a GREAT Guitar Mode, but it isn't integrated with style mode yet) are on the right path to better guitar emulation without the limitations that loops force on you. Mega Voice technology, especially the new T3 NTT's can sound very realistic, and Korg's Guitar Mode is very sophisticated, needing only perhaps some better guitar sample sets to rival, and maybe surpass Yamaha...

Will it better an audio loop for unrivaled realism? Perhaps not for a while, but it has NONE of the audio loop's shortcomings. You can still easily change an acoustic picking pattern to an electric pattern, or steel string into nylon, by a simple PC#. You can edit the picking pattern or strumming accents a LOT easier than the audio loop. You can edit the amount of distortion on the guitar track by using a clean sample into an amp sim.

Hopefully, now that Audya have shown how difficult it is to pull off this stunt, this will put a halt to 'me too' requests from Y, K & R's users, and go back to encouraging them down the path they have already started. I truly believe it the correct one.

And, I'm sorry, but after using BFD, EZDrummer, Groove Agent and the like for a while, I must confess that even using audio for drum loops is IMO the wrong path. Yes, once again you get the greatest immediate realism with the audio, but again at the cost of ANY customization ability. I have heard stuff coming from EZDrummer, and BFD that was indistinguishable from live drumming, but completely controllable.

Just as RAM and ROM prices hit an all time low, surely it makes sense to leverage existing technologies, and simply up the drum sample sizes to the GB size (OK even a few hundred MB is enough!) with more velocity splits and LH, RH alternation, and achieve the same degree of realism that loops provide (the patterns can still be played by drummers on MIDI kits) with NONE of their shortcomings?

OK, pretty soon, Dom is going to chime in and say yes, you can do all that on the MS. And indeed you can. But kudos to Ketron for at least realizing that the vast majority of the arranger market want those loops, kits, and the like actually in the arranger when they buy it... perhaps one day he will 'get it'.

I will be first in line when he does!

Wrong! with qranger we have the same guitar loops chords issue like on Audya.
Diki..how I told before, sometime you are so heavy and boring, BUT musically I have to admit that you are one of the more smart here, to understand this all audio chords issue.

You have also to understand this new audio-midi arranger generation, still NOT all is possible, because we know that Audio data have the limitation, can not be convert in realtime for make the all chords possible.
You have to choose a compromise and find the best way HOW to create a new style.
For sure stll the best way for make working the Guitar/Bass riffs are under Midi, this is the best way for remap the notes to each chords.

Embedded keyboards have the ROM/RAM and DSP engine limitation, where the all sounds must be processing from the embedded DSP/ROM.
In the MS is different, because we can choose another sounds enines, like the GIGA or VST format, BUT still the chords trasformer can be a issue.
MAYBE on MS we can find a better solution IF is installed one ASIO Host like the Real Guitar, or some else.

Qranger is based on Audio-Midi Timeline SEQ, it mean that under Timeline system is not possible make like the T3 NTT/s midi note trasformer. The SEQ will send OUT the all midi notes found on Timeline and we can only process the notes in realtime that come out.
This mean that right now Qrangerr is not able to Invert sequences notes, because i based on Timeline/Time code system.

The only plus on Qranger is the editor, where is possible create how many audio-midi tracks and routing each midi channels tracks to the desidered sounds engines. Qranger have the feature to create Unlimited Midi OUTS and connect what you like.
I can also use one external roland sound canvas or Yamaha XG generator for play the desidered styles session.

How I told before, audio loops are limited for chords switch, is not a audya and MS issue, is the Audio wav that have this limitation.
MAYBE who know in future IF Melodyne can resolve this chords issue in realtime, then this issue is resolved.

right now, only GOD can make miracle...

After today i quit reading about MS, even though i was offered to work on the machine.
As some say, its not important how it works inside and hot is it dont, whats important
is WHAT DO I HEAR COME OUT OF IT!

are you kidding or what??
What come OUT from the MS is for sure 100 time audio better quality from one another keyboard.
Remember also that the Dream chip is 10 years dated and give a LOT of effects noise, just put at the max volume slider and you can hear the ocean noise on your power amplifer.

IF for you is more importand what come out from the stereo out, then just open one windows mediaplayer, OR you there need also one OS system that can play styles, sounds, wav?

If you don't care of the Audya work, then just let me see that you are able and allowed to create ONE new style with ONE new audio loops. I think you there need oriental styles too, right? let me hear a new one.

I will see now IF really you don't care how it works...

There is a folder on the hard disk in the system/factory/sound with these files:

29/12/2008 12.01 1.703.936 Parm0000.pcm
03/11/2008 11.12 524.288 Parm0700.pcm
26/09/2008 13.53 524.288 Parm0800.pcm
03/10/2008 10.28 524.288 Parm0900.pcm
10/11/2008 08.44 524.288 Parm0A00.pcm
22/10/2008 13.18 31.850.496 Smpl000D.pcm
09/07/2008 08.11 33.554.432 Smpl0100.pcm
09/07/2008 08.11 33.554.432 Smpl0200.pcm
09/07/2008 08.12 33.554.432 Smpl0300.pcm
09/07/2008 08.12 33.554.432 Smpl0400.pcm
09/07/2008 08.12 33.554.432 Smpl0500.pcm
09/07/2008 08.12 33.554.432 Smpl0600.pcm
22/10/2008 13.21 33.030.144 Smpl0704.pcm
22/10/2008 13.23 33.030.144 Smpl0804.pcm
22/10/2008 13.25 33.030.144 Smpl0904.pcm
22/10/2008 13.26 33.030.144 Smpl0A04.pcm

These contains all the wavetable data the instrument uses (including guitar loops). Perhaps these are stored in a flash ROM also, and they left a copy in this directory however... In effect if Audya had to load these at each power on, the startup time could be much longer considering the time it take to load a 30MB supersound in RAM... (around 30 seconds)...

so..how much time you need for shown me a new style??
do you need one example how have to work the editor?
look here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=yYM5IdJvJW4

dont le me wait the 10 years...

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 02-04-2009).]

My question is simple and is this: can more guitar audio loops be added? Or is the Audya close to full in memory capacity? And most importatly can the user record their own loops...or import their own? How much memory is left in the Audya. I think the ONLY way I will buy and others ie Diki. Is If we are told something like "now you have basic loops but we are working on expanding this loop library which you can import into your board at a later time"

leezone... I do not work for Ketron, so this is not an offical answer.. but the audio loops stream from the harddrive..

If the keyboard has a 80 gig harddrive, it is like having a laptop with nothing on it , except audio wav files..

I am certain the Audya will have a tremendous amount of room for more audio based styles..

80 gigs of auido loops...

I think, though, Dan, that the issue lies with how fast the audio and streaming engine is at switching between different streams in realtime. At the moment, it seems that Ketron have problems with more than two (or three tops) plus the drum track. Start to add in three or so more, to cover dim, aug and sus4 (chord types that currently HAVE to be MIDI'd in their entirety) and you multiply the amount of data that must all be streaming simultaneously to be able to be switched instantly (in response to chord changes) by at least a factor of two.

There's no point in a HD full of loops if the engine can't play them on demand...

This isn't a chord RECOGNITION issue. The arranger has no problem in MIDI of recognizing and playing the chords. And, I think, just like Y, K & R, it has provisions for triggering different MIDI patterns depending on chord type. I know Roland do maj, min and 7th, I think Korg adds in dim, not sure about Yamaha. If it can recognize these different chord types and switch to a different MIDI stream (in effect) it ought to be able to switch to a different audio stream as well. It's just that I don't think the engine can do this fast enough for them to be successful at more than two or three simultaneous audio streams.

Many computer based softwares that try to do this trick pre-buffer at least the START of every sample in RAM, so that it can be played instantly and then hopefully the streamed HD track has time to come in and cross fade to the buffered. But this may prove a LOT harder to do in a realtime instrument.

But, be that as it may, there is STILL the question of, if it even WERE possible to stream five or six simultaneous streams to cover the basic chord types (and a drum track), would Ketron (or any manufacturer) have the resources to make the loops at an affordable price point? Some of the better guitar looping VSTi's have nowhere NEAR the variety of styles that an arranger player needs, and yet can be quite expensive. Multiply that by the vastly greater range needed for a worldwide customer base, and you begin to see the problem.

But still, don't take me completely wrong, everyone...

The Audya is STILL an exceptional arranger. It's full arranger demos are spectacular in their liveness (and wonderfully played!) and the audio loops, for all their flaws, still help push this to a new degree of realism... once you realize their limitations. Basically, I think for anyone that is 100% satisfied with the styles that it comes with, it's going to be a great choice.

But if you are a player that uses any significant proportion of either 3rd party or conversion styles, or self created or edited styles, you are going to have a more uphill battle...

This topic would have NEVER gotten so out of whack were it not for the hype, then silence (once it was out) by Ketron employees themselves. If a caveat about it's abilities had been talked about, but audio examples posted to show that it isn't the hurdle we might think it is, none of this would have taken the tone it has. Just as arrangers have become amazingly more sophisticated in the last few years, so have their users. It is at your peril that you treat us ALL like a bunch of retired one finger 'home' players and try to obscure technical issues that are germane to the kind of player that WOULD use something this advanced...

JMO...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-04-2009).]

Good points Dikki. However, the one-finger at home players are probably the ones that can afford it!
Sure, a few of us will buy Audya because of its immense capabilities, but we NEED the older, more affluent set to make them semi-affordable.
DonM

ketron developers must be laughing their heads off reading these fortune telling posts on something not on the market, not completed, & untested by the public thats where the real opinions lie....but as always everyone knows all about it allegedly...too weird....

"something not on the market, not completed, & untested by the public"

not true, it kinda is/was on the market and is tested by some of the public, as our friends in Portugal have bought some already.

it's just too bad we don't have them here on this forum to TELL IT LIKE IT IS !!!

Dnj, in case you did not read my post from another thread:

"Os poucos Ketron AUDYA que foram disponibilizados pela fábrica chegaram a Portugal e já estão a ser vendidos aos Clientes que os aguardavam pacientemente.

A satisfação é uma constante em todos os felizes proprietários destas fabulosas maquinas."

TRANSLATION:
The few Ketron AUDYA that were released from the factory arrived in Portugal and are already being sold to our clients that were patiently waiting for them.
What's constant is the satisfaction in all of the happy OWNERS of these fabulous machines.

I've got a feeling that NOBODY at Ketron is laughing their heads off right now...

Let's face it, even if it DID completely deliver on the promised hype, it faces a world in a depression (at least the UK's PM has the guts to call it what it is ) and a credit crunch sufficient to slow down sales of even products that DO work as advertised.

Also, if for some reason mrdave got it COMPLETELY wrong, what benefit does it do for Ketron to not rush out and correct the error..? A simple 'No, this is wrong. THIS is how it works, these are the chord types recorded, here's a demo of it' and this all goes away. If YOU were in charge, Donny, would you let this go on and laugh your head off?

Somehow, I doubt it.

& let me tell you leezone that I have been one of teh few that has actually heard the Audya in person unlike all the crystal ball readers here & I wasn't impressed ....I also wasn't impressed with the Portugal demo videos I saw either.....there better be much more from Audya for me to even get excited the hype doesn't work on me as it does others....much more.

can't wait to go to the AUDYA clinic in NY

not just to hear the AUDYA, BUT to actually get some answers to some very important and ignored questions...

if we're allowed to ask that is...

Diki, maybe we can Skype you in so you can ask some questions of your own :-)

Dnj,

don't forget those are not Portugal AUDYA Demo videos,
they are people like you, me, keyboard players just testing out the unit, just jamming...

If I was in charge Diki...I wouldn't even have spoke a single word about Audya until it was completely finished! additionally I would of had it completely tested by REAL working Pro arranger players around the world, then have all their input seriously considered & more changes made judging by their input all this BEFORE ever even mentioning the product....Then I would A/B the Audya against all the other competition in one room by professional players using many playing techniques & styles to see if it stands up to them.....then if it all passes have a professional write a detailed easy to understand manual.....then have a professional demonstrator & videographer produce several different LEVEL Instructional DVD's INCLUDED in the Box so that with all these features owners will have the best chance at seeing & understanding & enjoying the instrument.
Especially when someone is going to spend $5000.00 US !

Then & only then make the release public.....this runaround BS is a joke.

My thoughts exactly.

But maybe this IS funny to an Italian? Humor varies radically across the world... (I know that I'm taken seriously maybe a bit more than I intend! )

like the old saying goes:

it only takes one rotten apple to spoil the bunch,
but here we have LOTS of rotten apples spoiling the one "good" one

time to come clean Ketron, no more secrecy, runaround, half answers, ignoring questions

give us the FACTS,

we know AUDYA is not perfect, no keyboard in the world is,
just be HONEST,
listen to YOUR current customers and those FUTURE ones, and ANSWER their questions/concerns...

it will only HELP you in the long run

Diki,

i did not get a "my thoughts exactly" :-(

More reason that Ketron obviously doesn't know how to market a NOT ready product until ready. Forget about Diki...worry about what Audya can do for your music.
Enjoy your trip.

sounds like:

"ask not what your AUDYA can do for you,
but what you can do for your AUDYA"

OMG are we agreeing ?
I know it's gonna snow now for sure

how do i get those smily faces?
i click on them but they do not appear on my posts

oh my, i can't even manage to get my smilies, how the heck am i gonna work my AUDYA?

Several ways to do that, somewhere on this site it a description.
(Left side of the box where you write messages)


Also you could try http://www.clicksmilies.com/index.html

Have fun
GJ

Did I mention that I'd like to see an Audya module?
Ciao

Jerry, lets have an Audya synth first.

i too would like an AUDYA module, but unfortunately Ketrons modules are almost the price of the damn keyboard, probably a $200-$300 difference IF THAT... so it makes you rethink

As little as three months ago, when I first discovered the news on the Audya, everyone was prophesaying that the Audya would never be released and all they could show for two years of promises were a few audio only demos created on some PC.

I think that Ketron had to show the world that they were indeed busy creating something and that this would be the main reason for making even an unfinished version available for demonstration.

Henni

Originally posted by Dnj:
"If I was in charge Diki...I wouldn't even have spoke a single word about Audya until it was completely finished!"


so this means AJ can't say anything, not a word, at his clinic he has coming up in NY and elsewhere, cuz AUDYA is not completely finished... i'll bring the duct tape :-)

leezone read my post I said if I was in charge! the Audya is NOT completely ready...its not on the market for consumer consumption....why rush it? let them try to fix the problems & bugs, & address what people want & need & keep testing it ...if it takes 2 more years so be it......if its better then the competition that is already out it will sell admirably.....if if flounders in teh hands of serious players if it ever reaches their hands it will survive...its not a magic arranger KB....its just a $5000.00 musical tool that needs someone to utilize.....of what Ive heard so far it's no much better then my SD1+ & an SD5.

"if it takes 2 more years so be it"

i don't think Ketron can afford 2 more years, they have to release, they know their competition
in 2 years i think Roland, Korg, or Yamaha will have released something even much more cutting edge than the AUDYA

but what do i know ;-)

and hence this "rush" to push this out NOW, no matter how COMPLEX the situation...

Now hold on a minute...!

All I have been talking about and criticizing is just the ONE issue, which, although not perfect, may still do the job. Not as well as we wish, maybe even not well enough to persuade some to abandon traditional arrangers... But at no time have I said that this thing a) isn't finished (in fact, I have stated that all the work mitigating the drop outs indicates that this IS how it is going to work), or b) that it isn't potentially still a great arranger.

All the conjecture about it being 'unfinished' is simply that. In fact, with units actually shipping, that seems highly unlikely. Sure, mrdave may have a beta unit to tryout, but you guys got to hear AJ IN PERSON at the Jam. He ever say for one minute that it was a beta unit? He say for one minute that finished units would sound or work better?

Let's step back a little before wild conjecture about it morphs into general accepted FACT (which it ain't!).

It impressed the hell out of everybody at Shreveport. Doesn't that count for SOMETHING?

All I have ever commented on is firstly, the general disadvantages of audio loop technology, and then the likelihood of Ketron being able to pull off the technological feat that has eluded most VSTi guitar loop collections. Unfortunately, the deliberately evasive (one can only assume that) 'answers' to my questions that AJ provided - he never would say the audio loops would play most chords, just that the Audya itself played them ALL - kind of propelled what was a simple inquiry into another realm.

But this ONE issue aside (I'm sorry, but USB2/1 issues wouldn't have been more than an offline inconvenience, IMO), what else about the Audya isn't satisfactory? The demos blew everyone away. The Jam debut blew most away. It's a jet. Maybe not a supersonic jet like we all expected, but a jet nonetheless.

Let's put it this way... I STILL haven't completely ruled it out as a possible purchase. Sure, I'm less enthusiastic now the loops have this glaring hole, but it didn't stop the demos from being outstanding. Let's simply stick to criticizing what we know about, and let wild speculation (all Audya's are beta units? PLEASE...!) die the death it deserves. There's MORE than enough info to make INFORMED criticism.

So Diki, may I know from you wich is the best VST/ASIO guitar loops engine that can resolve this all chords arranger issue?

I will then try to install and testing.
If then really will work so nice, we can also integrated the feature on the MS core, how we made for the B4 II Asio.

Just suggest me the best one possibility.

Unfortunately, Dom, I really don't know of any! I guess that was one of the major points in my skepticism of Ketron's claim. They can work pretty well offline, but when you use them in realtime. low latency streaming issues and the need to respond INSTANTLY to chord changes make all kinds of glitches appear. Of course, on a studio project, you don't HAVE to get glitch free on the live pass, because you can then render offline afterwards and get the perfect export.

Add to that that I really don't know of any guitar loop VSTi players that are NEARLY as comprehensive as an arranger player needs for the vastly different musics that arranger players from all over the world play, and I really don't see a comprehensive solution...

You see, the hiphop musician works with the loops he has, and creates music based around those. But arranger players tend to want to play stuff already composed, so the choices need to be comprehensive. Jazz playing, folk and alternative, latin, rock ska, ethnic... Just too many choices, IMO.

I don't honestly encourage you down this path. Firstly, I think it is going to be prohibitively expensive to produce the library (seeing as no-one makes one off the shelf), technologically difficult to implement in realtime, and as I have been saying for a while now, things like Roland's Guitar Mode (which will change guitar neck positions depending on how high up you play the trigger chord on the keyboard) and Korg's Guitar Mode (which DOES work in arranger mode), and the new dedicated guitar NTT's on the T3, coupled with detailed samples and the Mega Voice like muting and sample noises technology seems a FAR easier technology to implement and improve. And can sound, even with the low ROM sounds that ROMplers typically use, very realistic. I just think this technology, tied to the MS's ability to load MUCH, much larger sample sets (hence greater detail) is the better course.

Especially for a keyboard like yours, where you promote (almost insist!) that the owner customize the content, loops are just too hard to edit and customize, whereas MIDI files triggering Guitar Modes are as easy as altering a string line... I can't see someone picky enough to want an MS being content with a small, uneditable guitar loop library, unless their stylistic needs are quite narrow.

But there's ONE caveat... You will probably have to develop this yourself. Unfortunately, the sound, the technology to use that sound, and the data to play the sound are all inextricably linked. It's next to impossible to get Yamaha Mega Voice technology to trigger Korg DNC Guitar Mode voices and get an acceptable result (and vice versa) and Roland is another system altogether. This is just one of those things that have to all work together, it can't be cobbled together out of off the shelf parts.

I'm afraid there is no easy solution.

But you might at least check out Steinberg's Virtual Guitarist2 (although users report bugs), AAS's Strum (Mac only, though, I think) or MusicLab RealGuitar & RealStrat. Just don't expect great realtime performance...

Maybe then give one simple solution..
Use the Realguitar, Guitar Ring 2.. and record each chord root key under wave file...

Define by default the range keys where this all root keys chords have to be played.
Drag&Drop this all files under Gigastudio and create a new GIG file of the Guitar sound type desidered.

For Each chord type ( like Maj, Min, 7th..and so on..) add a new gigastudio Layer switch controlled by Midi CC.

So...for switch chords root keys ( transpose) is really simple, because need only send the new global transpose.

For change Chords Layers we have only to add on qranger code the relatve midi CC number and when a new chord layer is pressed, we send also this new midi CC.
Linuxsampler in realtime will also switch in realtime the chords layers.
Under GIGA format the file can be bigger how much we need, like the Bosendorfer 290, 1800Mb and 16 Layers switch, will preload in cache just in some seconds, or persisten realtime on cache RAM.

the only problem that I see is the BPM change..
IF I will take this way with the GIGA format, we have to include the commercial Zplane.de Elastique plugin engine inside the Linuxsampler GIG too.

I will see if they allow me to include...