http://www.donmasonmusic.com/11%20Months%20&%2029%20Days.mp3


Not to mention those great Guitar licks Oh Yeah! Check out Don M kickin' it baby!!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-26-2009).]

Bar #7, 3rd beat in. Was that a C#min/maj7?

Sorry couldn't resist...although I see the problem has gone away.

DonM could make a comb and tissue sound good. (He'd probably borrow the comb from Hank because his is at Ernest's.)

Eddie

Eddie, believe it or not, that one song has ALL THREE chords in it.

DonM www.donmasonmusic.com

Nice stuff, Don, especially the guitar emulations...great phrasing and voicing.

Your singing is really smooth and professional.

Not an argumented or demented chord in the whole lot.


Ian

I've got this song by Don in both my "Zoner' and "Country" playlists on my iPOD ...

I've said it before - I haven't heard ANYBODY make a kb sound like any other instrument the way Don makes it sound like a guitar when he is 'pickin' !!!
LOVE IT !!!

t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 01-26-2009).]

DonM,
I have to ask this again: when can we SEE one of your performances?
I'd like very much seeing you playing the "guitar"!

Believe me Don M is "the Goods"....I sat in with him playing all night long at the Jam for 3 days!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-26-2009).]

You have mail

Like I always said "Let's hear what ya got" Its the Player not the keyboard....

Don: That was cooking! Great job. You done arrangers proud.

I still remember seeing Gordon Lightfoot play live in my home town.

The "pedal steel guitar" player was a guy playing a Yamaha DX7MkII.

Ian

Fran has a "MINT" condition DX7 in his studio

Don Mason--MY HERO! Man that was well worth the time it took to download on my slowwww dialup. Kinda reminded me of a song I heard on the movie Road House.

Gary

I had several DX-7, one with the Grey Matter E!...but, the DX-7Mk11 was able to bend the highest or lowest note of a chord with the pitch wheel...first seen on the DX-21.

The DX-7MkII with the E! chip was very cool, and it had a larger screen than the original DX-7.

Also, the DX-7MKII had two bits added to the D-A converter, and the annoying quantisation hiss on the original DX7 was a thing of the past.

Ian

Don, excellent it's sure apparent why you get to play golf all day and music at night. Nice work.

Dialup? YIKES!!

Steve bet your glad you have S900

I think Gary still has a steam powered computer...

http://www.vintage-computer.com/ibm5110.shtml
'NUFF SAID
t.

Guys, thanks for the comments. That song has been on my website for about two years.
I traded the S900 to HankB last summer. I'm leaving now to go borrow it for a recording session.
DonM www.donmasonmusic.com

Don,

I thought you were still playing the SD-5. You change keyboards more than I change my underware. Why didn't you sell me the SD-5? I buy all your castaways. I'll even take Susan!

Tom

tom

I'm actually playing a Roland E50 right now. It was supposed to be temporary until I get an Audya. I like it a lot though, for my type of playing.
DonM

So, how do YOU compare the S900 versus E50 drums, Don?

That WAS an S900 track, wasn't it? How does the E50 stack up?

E50 drums are more live, less processed sounding. Somewhere between Yamaha and Ketron.
I agree that the drums on that style sound good, but I did tweak them quite a bit, as I recall. I turned up the volume, turned down the effects and played with the e.q. a little.
I am pretty happy with the drums and bass, and most of the lead instruments on the E50.
It lacks the bells and whistles of more expensive arrangers, and I sure miss the Break.
DonM

T'is a pity the E-50 lacks EQ on the style parts.

I guess, but I've never found that the style parts NEED e.q.
The experts at Roland did a pretty good job.
DonM

It's good that it worked well in your case, Don, although I'm sure there were others who would have preferred the extra flexibility...strange why they made it available only on the top end products(G70/E80)...did they feel that the sounds in those models needed EQ tweaking and the cheaper units did not?

Ian

Maybe they felt that people spending the extra $$$ might be more 'particular'
t.

I'm enjoying the S900 but as you say, "Let's hear what ya got" Its the Player not the keyboard....

And also why did Roland leave out a Vocal Processor....when others in the same range have them & more? Setup & break down all day long every day get to be a pain.
All in one is the way to go for the everyday different venue musician.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-26-2009).]

No doubt, but it is strange not to have it on an arranger at that price point...gee, even the E-60 doesn't have it.

I remember Donny complaining about it, and how frustrating it was to him not being able to tweak the EQ like he could on the Yamaha.

One of Roland's oversights, I imagine.

Ian

nice. Yep its the player not the board.

Got a question Don. I was contracted in that "Superstars Live" show at the Hollywood Casino down there about 8 years or so ago for a few months. I saw the Logo on one of your back drops we used in the show. Are they still there? I thought when the producer Bob Curtiss passed away they stopped that show. Then there was a change in Casino management.

We had a great time doing that Casino and they treated us like gold. Good Times.
I remember Bob seeing the Legends Show in Ac and asking when I was finished and i flew back to vegas at 11 Am and to shreveport at 11PM that night to opne the the next day, Had my car shipped out a few days later and after three months in Shreveport drove to branson for another 3 months.....Hectic. But I had only been to Shreveport once and I remember we went to James Burtons place on the lake out there.
1 Forget the name but it was nice....

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-26-2009).]

It was frustrating with no part EQ.....& in the end something I couldn't live with happily...the other thing was no Mic Processor. But now I'm very happy now with the S900...I think I showed off the S900 enough at the Jam using just Styles & Vocals alone

No they don't have it anymore. In fact it's not the Hollywood Casino anymore either, it's El Dorado now.
Actually, I used to work on the nights that the Superstars weren't there, like Monday.
It was a good "photo op" because I set up in front of the sign.
They had some great shows, and I got to know some of the guys who performed, one in particular who did Waylon Jennings.
James had a club on the Riverfront. He lives out on the lake. Maybe you went to his home? The club is still there but not open regularly anymore.
DonM

I was in the second cast. After Bob died another guy took it over and a lot of acts were doing doubles. I was in the show with Charlie Daniels character. The first year they were there. Yeah we went out on the lake to Burtons on someones boat. David Allen Coe hung out at the Hollywood Casio as well. I never went back since they changed producers and the new producer reduced the contracts a lot.

Hi Don

Great performance.
Your guitar sounds live,live.

Regards from Brazil,Chico

Don , I totally agree with you...

I never found the need to eq any style parts on my E-60...in fact I never eq style parts on my G70..even though it is capable..

I can see maybe the Eq being handy with some conversions from those other keyboards.. , but I also think Roland does the styles right..

I also think you folks that monkey around with the style eq's..open up a can of worms...causing inconsistent levels from one style to another....than blame the instrument for your own failures...like wearing your shorts backwards..

Maybe you should look at the way your sound system is eq'd.....and leave the keyboard alone!!!!


Thankfully , my G70 has all the tools...when and if I need them..

I also think the E series at $1,000 -$1200 price tag, doesn't need the mic input to compete with the competition...The drums and make up tools already has the E in front.. ..And I am serious!!!

I've heard your G70...start working on the EQ...Diki can show you how...he's a kind and generous man with...er...standards.

There is NO EXCUSE for a mid-range arranger like the E60 to be without style part EQ...unless you want to provide one for them.

Donny and a few others were very disappointed with the E-60's lack of part EQ...and Roland provided no upgrade like they did for the G70, which by the way, came without it originally.

Why did they add it to the G70?

Because it was needed, why else?

Seriously(now that we're being serious) they should have done so for the E-60/50 as well...but there was probably no way it could be done easily.

All the more reason it should have been implemented initially.

I'm serious.

I've been sitting here playing with HankB's S900. Only thing it needs is better drums, particularly the rim shot. The rim shot on Ketron and Roland sound real. Those on Yamaha sound like someone hitting a desk top with a ballpoint pen.
As long as they put a vocal harmonizer in it, they should have put a good one. This one is usable, but barely so. There is a glitch every time you engage or disengage it, so you MUST never hit the switch while singing a note. Other than that, it can be tuned to sound "o.k.", if you are meticulous when setting levels and e.q. and where you position the mic in relation to the speakers.
DonM

Don,

Dan Rymut did a great tutorial on using the S900/PSR-3000/Tyros vocal harmonizer and posted some terrific examples that show it in a much better light.

Yes Don...the speaker placement in relation to the microphone is critical, as it does have a tendency to cause false triggering..."warbling" results from it and it is not pretty.

Check out Dan's tutorial on YPKO...it may be on PSR Tutorial as well...definitely worth a look.

Here's the link. http://psrtutorial.com/Resources/Articles/VHPrimer/VHPrimer.html

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-27-2009).]

I was wondering what style DonM used for the song, called him, then went about the task of tuning the style for the PSR-3000, which uses different voices for some parts. I also tuned the drums, changed the 4th OTS, made a few other changes, then saved the file. All of the tuning was done using the PSR-3000s onboard Style Creator program, which is extremely versatile. If anyone would like a copy of the style, email me at travlin_easy@copper.net and I'll be more than happy to email it to them. The style really rocks!

Thanks again Don,

Gary

Gary thats a S900/Tyros style...
I use it for sweet Home Chicago also.

Gary, you're welcome.
Ian, I have read Dan's instructions. Very well done. Still, if it were done right in the first place, one wouldn't have to deeply edit it to make it still merely acceptable.
Even you MUST concede the vh is inferior to the other brands and even more so to standalone harmonizers.
DonM

Yep...it certainly could use an improvement...even having it default to Dan's parameters coming from the factory would have been a big help.

Luckily for me, I don't sing on my solo gigs...all instrumental, but the VH has been very useful to me in another way...I plug my little Yamaha CS01 mono synth in the line-in and voila! Chords on a mono analog synth that sound awesome.

Perhaps Yamaha will do a new version of the VH in a future instrument, but I won't hold my breath.

Ian

The vocal processor is quite good. It's just the harmonizer. It has been virtually unchanged since the PSR800.
DonM

Yes I had a PSR-8000, and unless my memory is bad, the one in the 8k was better than the one being used today.

It seemed to track better, and there was very little interference from the speakers.

But, I could be wrong...it's been a while.

Ian

I totally agree! It was the reason I switched from Technics back to Yamaha.
DonM

It also depends on how you sing....I've tried Dans approach ...and no way would I use that harmony on stage, the voice tracking & note drops are horrible.

Correctomundo.

I know many folks who are using it successfully...especially after inputting Dan's settings.

Mind you, it doesn't have the flexibility and quality of a stand alone unit, but it still does a pretty good job if you work with it a little.

Also, the present harmonizer works best in a "non-live" situation...probably for what it is intended, since these are primarily "home keyboards".

You probably put more demands on it that it was meant for, Donny...especially with your kind of "live" show.

Maybe Yamaha could bring back the one in the PSR-8000 and put it in the next generation Tyros/PSR?

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-27-2009).]

The tracking and voice drops are terrible?

IMHO that means the keyboard is broken..'IF' the VH is important to anyone with this issue...I would return it for a full refund.

Why would they put this Cr.P out on us?
They know it's broke..and won't fix it?
If enough of them get returned..it will get fixed.

Sad.

Lee

Sad to see a Yamaha user and official demonstrator basically admit that 'home' users don't need a quality VH. It's kind of like admitting they don't need a quality arranger, either...

BTW, I NEVER put any EQ on my G70's piano sound. Perfection can't BE improved. And this, also, is the opinion of every studio producer I work for. I guess their ears aren't sharp enough to hear those mid range inconsistencies, too, eh, Ian?

How many studio releases are the S900 piano sound heard on? Because you'll hear the FantomX/G70 piano on a TON of tracks on the radio...

Yamaha's vocal harmonizer has not changed since its inception. It has never been good, and even with lots of fine tuning, it is marginal at best. Fortunately, I, and many other performers, use vocal harmonies sparingly. When we use them, however, we like to hear something that is relatively close to the human voice. Consequently, I switched to a stand-alone harmonizer when the Digitech Midi Vocalist became available about a decade ago. I then graduated to the VR, and more recently the TC Helicon Harmony-M, all of which are superior to any oboard harmonizer I've heard on ANY brand of keyboard. Yamaha's vocal processor is quite good, and provides users with lots of neat options. It's the harmonizer that is quite poor.

For those that I emailed the style to, you will hear a tremendous difference between the retuned style and the factory default style. I wish there was a way to do this globally on the keyboard, but alas this is not the case at this time. I anticipate that in the next few years we will see software updates that will provide more latitude in this area, which for the most part will improve the overall sound of many styles. Until then, it's a matter of tuning the styles until you get the results you wish to hear, then saving them as custom styles.

Cheers,

Gary

Perhaps a call to Jørgen Sorenson could get this feature added via software? I have to admit, there are things I like to EQ on the G70 in the Makeup Tools (primarily the bass part, because I STILL haven't broke down and got an SRX-07!) that are the same every time.

A 'batch' processor, that can take every registration, style and SMF that uses a particular sound, or certain drums within a kit, and apply that EQ to ALL of them automatically would be a FANTASTIC piece of software...

It's kinda like you putting words in my mouth, to be more accurate.

I didn't say anything of the sort.

Haven't you learned anything from that guy who gives those sermons at church ? Captain what’s-his-name?

You really are violating your standards quicker than you can lower them.

Whatever the Roland piano is used for does not have anything to do with the uneven notes...they are there...you know it because you have tried the notes I mentioned in a previous post.

If you have any kind of ear, and you profess that you do, then you will admit there are uneven notes...different tones, and different decays.

If you don't, that's okay...but you will still have to live with the results anyway, and every time you play you will hear them and know how right I am.

Can the piano still be useful?

Sure it can...lots of real pianos suffer from the same issues...unless the regulation and voicing are completely perfect.

So keep defending if you like...I don't mind...it just keeps the topic out in the open where it will make other users try the same notes on their G70, and perhaps like you, they won't admit the discrepancies they hear, but my point will still be made regardless.

Faults I may have...being wrong is not one of them.

Ian

I took Hank's S900 to the job tonight and played it. It's still a lot of bang for the buck, and so easy to use. Of course I had all my registrations and User styles saved.
My ears are too tired to listen to the recordings now, but I will tomorrow.
I will still not like the drum sounds though.
It's interesting that NOBODY noticed I had a different keyboard, even though there are at least 20 people who hear me every night.
DonM

Kind of like you taking my quote about the S900 out of context, eh Ian?

Actually, it's kind of tough to put words in your mouth, as stuffed with bullsh*t as it always is... but I can't argue with this...



Truer words were never said

Well Diki...it's just as I would expect from you...when you can't can't say anything clever or pertinent, you resort to profanity and personal insults.

Needing to use profanity is a sign of a lack of self discipline...and spewing insults is basically a sign of low-self esteem.

I hope you seek help for the above...and I wish you all the best in your recovery.

Now, about the G-70's piano....you obviously have found out that I'm right, else wise, why would you become so defensive and angry...I'm sorry if my discovery hit a nerve, but this revelation was long overdue, and a nice counterpoint to your less than charming and unfounded remarks about other people's instruments.

Now, you can take the discovery as a positive thing, and we can say Diki's piano has "character" because of it's defects, or you can continue with your profanity and insults and stay in your state of denial.

It's up to you, son.

Ian

Well Diki, claiming something is "perfect" and "can't be improved" is just inviting a detailed inspection of said item, as everyone knows there is no such thing in reality.

Putting EQ on a piano with uneven notes in the middle will not correct the problem, Diki...I'm surprised a studio rat like yourself doesn't know this fact.

It's like having a mechanic who can't fix your brakes...so he makes your horn louder.

You must remember...I did not say the piano sounded "bad"...just "uneven in the middle"...and since you claim that it is used on a lot of recordings, then it must be still useful.

Imperfections give an instrument (or a person)"character".

If you spent some of your valuable time investigating the middle range, you have already discovered I am right...and although you will come to the grim realization that the sound is not "perfect" (as you claim), you can find solace in that it is perfect for your needs....much like my S900 is perfect for mine.

Ian

Tip: Be suspicious if you discover that your car mechanic has clean fingernails.

The S900 sounds wonderful dont you think?.....what a great arranger.

Crickets chirping....

But I suppose to a parade of one person, everybody looks in step...

Just find ONE other person, Ian, or give it up.

I don't need to "find" anybody, my friend.

I know what I heard, and if you played each note and listened...so did you.

I don't really care if any one agrees with me..I don't really expect any of the Roland fanboys on SZ to admit there could be any unevenness in their piano.

You won't.

If you did, the rest would follow behind.

I'm just content to know that, in spite of the silence, the cat is out of the bag, and no one will ever be able to listen to that mid range on their G70 without hearing the uneven notes.

The Emperor has no clothes.

Ian

again .....

Listening is believing my friends

Donny, you have a perfect opportunity to hear things for yourself.

Try playing your S900's Live!Grand in it's mid range...from "A" below middle "C" and up to the "C" above....slowly going from note to note chromatically.

Listen and observe how each note sounds like it was sampled from the same piano.

Then, go to Fran's and try the exact same thing on his G70.

Do the notes have different tones and decays as you go up(or down)?

Are some thinner and of shorter duration than others?

Then make up your own mind, my friend.

Ian

I will try this experiment asap......

Thanks buddy.

I know you will use any brand as long as it fits your needs, so I know you will not be biased.

If you find the Roland piano perfectly even, I will not mention it ever again....and the matter will be closed, at least from my end.

You'll just hear the sound of crickets.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-28-2009).]

Ian I was told to tell you...you are an ass..

Ian, seriously...why put your friends through this torture test....really comparing a piano sound on the S900 to the G70..

Wow a S900 vs G70 Piano throw down

I was told to tell you that you are wrong.

Not really a comparison Fran...the Roland is much more expensive than the S900...not a really fair deal.

But, it will give Donny a reference point...the S900's Live! Grand is even from top to bottom.

I'll be willing to put stock in his opinion...also, he is not brand biased like you are...Donny will use ANY brand as long as it fits his needs.

As I said...if he finds no uneven or inconsistent notes on the G70, then I will never mention it again.

I don't have a G70 here with which to record the notes and post the MP3...so I will do the next best thing and have a neutral unbiased professional make the call.

If you and Donny are truly good friends, then you shouldn't mind his honest appraisal of the G70's mid range...the uneven notes don't make it a "bad" piano...probably it would be more realistic, as John pointed out...so any assessment, one way or the other, would not really put the G70 in a bad light.

So, don't be so worried.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-28-2009).]

Well I have this to say about Yamaha pianos. I have the Tyros 1 and a lot of its voices are very similar to the S 900. I know because I played Hank B's at the Arranger Jam. I recorded my last 2 shows on the Zoom H2 and the piano really kicks ass. I'd put it up against any Roland arranger piano. Note that I said arranger piano because the Roland RD 700 blows most other pianos out of the room. I am really impressed with what I am hearing on the recordings.

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

Hey Joe ......Im glad your enjoying the Zoom H2.....& dont forget to send me thoise Videos

jam 2010 Jan 24,25,26,27

I agree, Joe, the S900's piano is the same as the Tyros 1...the Tyros2 has a different piano, I believe, a little more robust, but the best thing about all three is that they are even and true from top to bottom, and having a nice even tone, especially in the middle where we play most often on an arranger, is pretty important.

I haven't played the new RD-700, but I must say, I am very interested in trying one out, as I am a piano player first and foremost

What did you think of the new PHA II “Ivory Feel” keyboard?

Ian

Gary thanks for the style, no doubt big difference than from the factory style, played on my S900.

Man it always brings a smile to my face to see this so called (everyone's talking about it-just not on the Zone) issue about Roland's pianos being inconsistent..., and that Yamaha's are supposed not have inconsistency.

You guys ever stop and think about how they make these samples. Ever consider the reason the Yamaha sample may not sound inconsistent is because Yamaha CHEATED a little (like all the makers do)? Ever consider the reason that next note you play and so on sounds consistent is because that next note is most likely the note you just played before it..., only this time it's digitally stretched and enhanced????

Do some of you guys actually think the keyboard makers sample all 88 notes of a piano for the samples you find in these current keyboards!? They ALL cheat..., do you have any idea how HUGE the piano samples alone would be if they didn't cheat?

If a Roland piano sounds inconsistent to some of you (or should I say one of you) on this forum.., I ask...., "Then how is that sample WRONG?" Real acoustic pianos ARE inconsistent. I don't care how much money you put into the bloody thing. It's nature of the beast. You can keep the thing in the perfect climate controlled environment.., read to it every night, blah blah blah.., and it will still have inconsistency. Hmmmmm.., real pianos are made out of what????? WOOD.., and we all know wood is not prone to the slightest environmental changes (even treated wood) right! It's not like there's a lot of moving parts or anything

You guys ever consider that if a Roland piano sounds inconsistent to you that perhaps Roland DIDN'T cheat as much on that sample.., and that you're actually hearing more REAL notes rather than digtially stretched notes????? It may sound crazy to some of you, but it's the INCONSISTENCY within the sample of an acoustic instrument that makes it sound more REAL and more NATURAL......

Some of you guys have gotten too spoiled with your keyboards soundset. I've said this in the past too..., some of you have gotten so used to your keyboards version of how the keyboard maker sampled the sound.., that when you actually hear the REAL instrument you trash the bloody thing because it doesn't sound like your keyboard.

I took heat for pointing out Yammie's "INCONSISTENT" nuances in their SA guitar voices with all the FAKE string noise coming in between chord changes when it's NOT supposed to be there.

Yamaha's always getting smoke up the backside because of their piano and drum samples...., and how can they possibly get it wrong because they make the REAL thing right????? Look at all the heat Yammie took with their top dog Motif XS piano sample..., how long did it take for the posts on Motifator to start showing up complaining about the piano samples (and in fairness Roland also took a hit with the new Fantom G line in terms of acoustic pianos)

Roland's pianos get a lot of praise for sounding NATURAL..., and they're always getting praise for their drums in both their keyboards and electric kits (which to date Roland V drums still outsell Yammie's DTX line).... Interesting how Roland doesn't make REAL acoustic pianos or drums yet they continue to get the samples right...., and we still continue to see comments saying Roland's drums sound more live and their acoustic pianos sound more natural.... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-29-2009).]

Ian...

I must believe You Love "The Jerry Springer Show" or You simply Have alot of free time and are Bored.

First, Knowing Yamaha Products as well as You Do or Should....Would it not explain why the 900 and Tyros Pianos are very even Simply because the Sampled Pianos Yamaha choose to use were NOT sampled Note for Note from Their Acoustic Grand Piano.

It's using one sample used for many notes. Thus cutting cost and kind of cheating. This is a common practice. Not saying It Sounds Bad by any means but not really natural.It can sound very Good,But if You really want as close to acoustic as You can Get, You have to have Individual note for note sampling...Thus when You do this You will also have Natural varation in tone elements on how the Piano was Tuned at the time.

This rubbish You mentioned awhile back saying Roland used Different Piano's on one Sampling is Nonsense...Even the Cost factor could not justify that!...Sometime common sense is not to common.

Bye the way...I hear The 900,Tyros Piano's Sounding Really Good on This Forum with the Excellent Musicians We have Here.

And I Hear The Roland G-70 Ultimate Grand Sounding Outstanding...You will find this same Sample being used as one of the Piano's in the New Roland RD-700GX Stage Piano...Can't be to bad?

Have a Great Day Harold

My only point was that the Roland piano was uneven in the middle...it was okay in the bottom, and in the top.

Why would ONLY the middle be inconsistent?

If they are allegedly trying for "realism" then why not do the entire keyboard the same as the middle and employ inconsistent samples.

I am not the only one who heard this on this "issue" on the G70.

I have a visually impaired friend who was at my house trying out the G70 that another friend had left with me...it was the former who pointed out that ONLY the middle samples were uneven.

Up until someone had the bravery of saying the Roland G70's piano was "perfect", I was willing to leave it be...but saying something is "perfect" leaves it open to much deeper investigation.

I think the G70's piano is pretty good, but it is not "perfect" as claimed...otherwise the entire keyboard would have uneven samples (in the interest of realism) or it would be even throughout...like the Yamaha Live!Grand.

Since it is being discussed on other forums...actually I did not know that...then there are others who hear what my friend and I heard.

The thick plottens.

Maybe the Emperor truly has no clothes.

My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?

I'm never bored, Harold, and I don't waste my precious time in front of a TV...but I do get a kick out of dispelling myths.

Someone said the Roland piano was "perfection".

I disagree...and it is becoming more obvious that I am not the only one.

Can we say that it is "perfectly imperfect"...or, how about "imperfectly perfect"?

I really think that you guys think I am picking on Roland's piano...I'm not...I'm just dispelling the myth that it is "perfection".

Ian

And that EVENESS in Yammies Live Grand is evidence enough of how much they really cheated and how compressed and stretched that piano patch really is.

Perhaps the ONE piano sampled for the G-70 has more "noticable natural occuring inconsistency" within one area and not others. I've played MANY acoustic pianos where inconsistency was way more present in one area of the keybed.

Well...that makes the middle of the Roland G70 inconsistent now, doesn't it?

That was all I was trying to say from the beginning.

Thank you, Squeak.

Ian

I never said it didn't have some inconsistency to it... However, if the inconsistency IS there it DOES NOT stand out to me becaues if it is present..., to me I'm hearing a great "NATURAL SOUNDING" piano........

Perhaps you've grown soooooo used to Yamaha's method of cheating that you no longer prefer the sound of a REAL piano You Ian..., someone who proclaims to be all about the acoustic piano.., I find shocking that you don't bitch and complain more about Yamaha's method of cheating so much. There's such a thing as a patch sounding TOOOO perfect thus resulting in a less natural sounding sample...... Now what's that saying here... oh..., "one two cha cha cha"...

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-29-2009).]

"Some" inconsistency is correct, and again, you have acknowledged that it is there.

Were not talking "how much"...just that there "is".

[I just read your edit...]

If you want to spin off and discuss Yamaha's alleged "cheating" so be it, but my interest is in dispelling the "perfection" myth of the G70's piano.

One thing at a time please.

Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-29-2009).]

Seriously though Ian..., all joking aside and no smart ass remarks..., but the way you approach this Roland issue with the piano is like Roland did something wrong..., or make it seam that if the inconsistency is there that Roland perhaps didn't do a good job at sampling the piano.

It's no disrespect to you Ian, but I would think that maybe you have grown so used to the way Yamaha has digitally stretched their piano samples (thus taking out the "natural" inconsistency found in real acoustic pianos)..., that when you hear a piano sample that includes this (to you) it may not sound right as you've grown so used to the digital sampled version from Yamaha.

I've heard amazing VST piano samples that are FULL of inconsistency.... That inconsistency along with other factors in the VST sample process is what makes the thing sound so..., ACOUSTIC... and NATURAL.

Like I said though Ian.., if the incosistency is there... for me it doesn't stand out (as much as it does to you) because that (to me) is a more REAL and NATURAL sounding piano patch because it simply is what the real instruments does. It's not like Roland goes out of their way to intentionally make a sample sound "inconsistent".

Interesting the same thing can be said about your position of "perfection" as it relates to Yamaha Ian. Why is it every time someone praises Yamaha and hints at perfection you're all game, but the moment something Roland related is associated with "perfection"..., you do what you can to point out it's imperfections????

Roland's not perfect..., I like their gear, but don't think twice about saying something of theirs just sucks balls. I like Roland, but feel their orchestral stuff isn't all that great.., which is why I use my YAMAHA for music that requires good orchestral instruments. As much as I love Roland..., I'll be one of the first to say they're FAAARRRRRRRRR from perfection.

Yes...., EVERYONE cheats on the samples. It's not just Yamaha. Some however cheat a little mroe than others. You ever think that the reason we so often hear Yamaha's piano samples being described with adjectives like "lifeless, brittle, and thin" is because perhaps they've cheated so much that it results in a piano that sounds "TOOOOO PERFECT".., thus sounding less realistic....



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-29-2009).]

Then why is the inconsistency only in the middle, if they were trying for realism, wouldn't it encompass the whole keyboard?.

It doesn't.

And no, I have already said I am not picking on Roland and I am not saying they are wrong.

It's a fine piano sound...the middle is inconsistent, but it obviously works for several of the owners who seem quite content with it.

Neither it or the Yamaha arranger pianos are even close to the sound of a real acoustic...that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who has played the real thing.

Both sounds are workable enough in an arranger context, but as far as stand alone solo instruments...not really.

But that's another topic altogether.

Ian

BUT..., Ian.., take this into consideration. This is YOUR ears..., YOU may think that section sounds inconsistent, and they person behind you just might say the register lower sounds MORE inconsistent.., and that the middle register sounds NATURAL.

I'm all for keeping those natural side effects of an acoustic instrument in the sampled version. I think the patch sounds less realistic without them... Again you prefer the Yamaha piano.., and that's fine for YOUR ears. Some of us prefer to hear this "inconsistency" (if present) because it lends to a more natural sounding patch. For me Yamaha strips too much of that away and focuses more on the "cleanest" sample possibly..., which again could possibly be why we often hear other brands sound more LIVE than Yamaha. It's not just with their piano samples..., but their drums are even stripped of natural naunces that occur from an acoustic kit..., and often sounds like they completely took apart the ENTIRE acoustic kit and sampled each part of it by itself (rather than sample the kit as a whole to capture the natural nuances produced by the real kit)

I've got both Roland and Yamaha in my set up. I go to both for what I need. I don't even touch my Roland's anymore for orchestral or score music. My Yamaha's the first go to keyboard for that. When I want to do something a little harder I go for my Roland's....

In the end it's what makes us happy. I'm not buying my boards to make someone else happy...... They sure as hell don't make my wife happy.....

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-29-2009).]

In regards to Yamaha "perfection", the only time I've ever said they were "perfect" was that they were "perfect" for MY needs.

I prefer an arranger piano to be even in the middle, because that's where most of the playing is done whilst in arranger mode...especially if I'm using the piano to play melody.

I still haven't found a great piano for solo playing...the best I've played so far, is the Yamaha CP-300, but at over 70 lbs, it is not portable enough to suit all my needs.

I'm sure the one "perfect" for my needs will come along eventually...I'm in no hurry.

Ian

Ian..., I'm surprised you don't have a Kurzweil. I'd take their piano any day of the week over both Roland and Yamaha, but Kurzweils gear is just so bloody expensive though.

Maybe that new Roland V Piano will eventually show up in a module verson or many of its fetures will trickle down to other Roland gear. I will say that new V Piano is probably going to even give Kurzweils famous piano patches a good run.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-29-2009).]

Kurzweil has a great piano sound, but the instruments aren't handled by any dealer in my area, except on special order.

I'm not really comfortable in regards to how well they will be supported, service wise.

I want something really light...under 30 lbs with a decent graded hammer action, preferably with speakers...if the piano in the P85 was like the one in the CP-300, I'd be content.

Ian

I told you the Drums sound great on the S900 what a fantatstic arranger......
94 posts so far....it will go down as one of Yamaha's all time classics....

Im so happy this didnt go off topic I could go for a Shrimp Po' Boy Now

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-29-2009).]

They're ok Donny.... Nothing really special IMO. I will say this.., my old trusty RS-70 has more velocity switching and way less compression than the S-900.

Yammies drums to me are too clean. Too much has been stripped out of the overall sound. I still say the drums sound like they took the entire kit apart and sampled each part by themselves rather than sample the kit as a whole to get a more LIVE sounding set.

To each his own though I will say the S-900 has some good orchestral sounds though... Would take Yammie in that area any day over Roland.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-29-2009).]