I've worked with the same three guys for over ten years and am growing less and less satisfied with what we put out. The places we play love us and we get great crowds but I just don't like how we sound as much as I should.

Guys can't/won't rehearse so new material is tried on the fly, mostly on my shoulders...

I don't need the work, but these are mostly long term clients and there is definitely some fun to this. The guys are pretty good joes but seem content to show up where ever I tell them, provided its not too far away and play. A lot of it sounds really good, but as I said, We can't add new material as fast as I'd like so to me, the show seems to be getting a bit stale.

This has nothing to do with me financially. I've never taken a leaders fee and haven't collected expense money in several years. (My costs are very low.) I cut it right in quarters, which is more generous than most bandleaders do. Bottom line, if the band works once a week, I'd book myself one more NH show and be even.

Part of me says, hey...you're kind of pals with these guys, they've been loyal, your clients and audiences love you so keep it going. Work new stuff in as best you can and don't sweat it.

Another part of me says, hey...guys can't/won't rehearse, new material is difficult to add in and it's not as much fun as it used to be. Play out 2009 and call it a day.


Comments very welcome...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 12-31-2008).]

Hi Bill,

I was in a similar situation a few years ago. What was different here though was that band work was getting harder to come by and the OMB market was exploding for me. So it was a no brainer. There was no formal break up of the band, I just let the bookings dwindle down. The drummer is now playing in a jazz trio and the guitar player is in a heavy metal band and I'm in OMB heaven with a lot less headaches. In your case it's a tougher call since you still have a market for it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Bill, are they aware of how you feel? If you're 'kind of pals', maybe you could let them know how you feel and if, IF they are also having fun with the collaboration and want to keep it going, they may be willing to change some old habits. Worth a try, since you've already entertained going it alone after 2009 anyway.

chas

They probably have a pretty good idea but not a crystal clear one.

This'll sound bad but I'm more or less the quality control guy. Two of the guys rarely seem to feel that something "wasn't good enough." The other understands what I'm talking about usually but without rehearsing, its difficult to really address my concerns.

Again, lots of our stuff sounds great...but I hate introducing a new tune in month 1, then not happy with it until month 4 or 5...




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Bill in Dayton

hey bill,
sorry i couldn't get to springfield. i emailed you today. sounds like you want to "raise the bar" and you're not going to get the support from them. From what i heard of you and your professional reputation, i would maybe think about moving on. i went thru this in the 90's, made the switch to a single or got a girl singer and never looked back. as with the band sooner or later if their not going to update with you, your jobs are going to dry up and it will affect your reputation. so with that in mind i would move on cause times are changing.
good luck my friend,
dave
ps. playing at the party room tonight,i will be home and in bed by 9pm. average age 75. now thats what i call retirement.

You have mail, Dave



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Bill in Dayton

ALl bands go through this. The closer you are as friends the harder it is. If you don;t enjoy it and don;t need the income, extricate yourself from the situation and explain why.

There is risk involved yes. They may get with your program and rehearse, learn new songs and you will be artistically content , or they will never speak to you again. How much risk are you willing to take.

My wife settled for the latter. OMBs are far easier to deal with. You are in control of everything, Get all the money and don;t have to fill out those pesky 1099s at the beginning of the year.

Bill ...
I'm glad I never had this problem in 26 years with the same guys ...
But that doesn't help you ...
You should talk to them, give them a 'crystal clear' idea of how you feel, and if they don't want to respond, then YOU have a decision to make - either accept the status quo, or 'cut the ties that bind' ...
I feel for you, because 25 years later I still miss playing with 'my guys', but our breakup was solely due to my relocation to another state ...

Good luck,

t.

LOL, we aren't all that close...

None of us socialize outside the band. I'm closer to one guy more than the others. (I may just like him better...)

I'll still call my sax guy for 30+ duos a year...I've tried to get the bassist to look at putting together an acoustic guitar duo together but he's busy and not that sure he really wants to do something like that. The drummer, well, he's a nice guy who I can talk baseball with, lol...



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Bill in Dayton

Just a slightly different slant, but rather than go totally solo, why not try a few gigs with better musicians? Presumably there's a reason you enjoy music in an ensemble, otherwise you would have gone solo long ago, but if the current guys won't learn new material, get guys that will!

BTW, I have found that using a little pocket recorder (Zoom H2 in my case) has been invaluable for 'quality control'... Actually having to LISTEN to themselves ham it through stuff is often all it takes to wake some guys up, and can avoid the rancor of telling them to their faces it sucks! Some players will get very defensive if you TELL them 9it needs to be better, but will many times fix it themselves if made to endure it like the audience does!

Having a recording is also good for yourself... if the band is cooking, from time to time, it helps to have a good recording of it to compare to your OMB sessions. I know it's hard to admit it, sometimes, but a live bunch of good musicians KILLS even the best of arrangers! Just try to make sure you are playing with the best your area has to offer (if they will play with you!) and you won't get quite so gung-ho about a MACHINE

I know of all the hassles with a group...arguements about who solos...disagreements about volume, material...personal problems with women, money, alcohol. But, I NEED interaction with other players. That's the good thing about doing OMB stuff. I control the rythem section and horn or guitar players just add the "sweetening". Players of a certain caliber and experience fit right in without a lot of rehersal.

Of course, my "newest group" is my grandson on drums and my son on bass. I do guitar ansd keys. We're not the best in the world, but what fun!

Russ

That was the word I was looking for.... FUN

Working with an arranger is just that... work. Sure, there's a decent musical experience to be had if it's done right, but for me, it's just 'work'.

But.... a few cookin' players around you - now THAT's 'fun'

It's weird. The type of music you play and where you play it makes it such a different world. Playing jazz in a jazz club has a totally different set of demands. People care more about HOW you play than WHAT you play. They want you to 'cook'. Whether you're cookin' on something written 40 yrs. ago or yesterday, is unimportant. Of course there are 'crowd favorites' but there is almost zero demand to play the 'latest' tune and absolutely no requirement to 'play it like the record'. Arrangers don't lend themselves very well to improvisational music, which is why you will probably never see one in a jazz club (although, as Diki says, there is no reason you couldn't use a G70 in synth mode). In fact, the problem with using a synth in a jazz setting is that you might be tempted to try a trumpet or sax solo. Stick with piano, el. piano, and (sparingly) organ, and you'll be okay. If I had to cover a jazz gig with a synth, it would probably be a Nord Electro (3). Best compromise piano and organ. I know jazz players that haven't learned a new tune in years, yet seem to know every 'standard' ever written. I guess they figure learning to play one song ten different ways is as good as learning to play ten songs one way only. Oh well, different strokes......

chas

Going to sell that FantomG and get the Electro3 when it comes out, chas? Or just go the whole hog and get the Stage...?

I have to confess, I've tried all the major WS's lately, MoXS, M3 and FantomG...

Yawn..!

They simply don't excite me. The Stage and E3 are about the only things that give me any gear lust, right now.

I regularly do sessions with some good buddies who play guitar, Saxophone, and keyboards...it makes a difference, to be sure. I always learn something from these collaborations.
Still, I prefer to work alone...I guess it's a control thing(as well as a better profit margin)...but there is no doubt that having another musical POV is valuable.

Ian

Bill, I thought I was reading about myself as I read your post. Breaking ties with friends is very difficult. In my case, the sax man was in charge of bookings and he let it get away from him so we kind of died. I tried a couple times to find work for us, but the market was not in out favor.

My suggestion would be to sit down with at least one member and mention your concerns. Maybe if the word gets to the others they will react positively, OR maybe even surprise you by leaving on their own.

I know I prefer playing with others, the more the merrier. But playing in a band always has its trials and tribulations, especially when you're the one putting out 80% of the combined efforet.

Best of luck; keep us informed.

I think that until you step away from ANY machine involvement in the music, it is still pretty much the same thing, Ian. As much as we like to ridicule them, a happening bass player and drummer make FAR more difference to the sound of a combo, rather than an arranger rhythm section, than adding horns or guitars, etc. to an arranger OMB.

Money, sure... but is it REALLY supposed to be about money?

Don't get me wrong, you all know I have an arranger, use it for EVERYTHING, and know how to work it. But 'playing' music with an arranger is no more 'playing' than karaoke is (I'm going to get Katoushka'd for this!). It's 'manufacturing' music, or 'producing' music. But in my mind, until EVERY part is played by a human, it's NOT 'playing music'.

But I'm crazy like that... I simply think that to remove ALL human interaction out of music turns it into something different. Call it what you will, but for me, it AIN'T 'making music'. Imagine yourself watching an act that was a drummer and a bass player, but everything else was recorded. Do you honestly think that constitutes 'making music'? Really?

Because them looking at you doing the same damn thing probably brings up the same emotion.

More and more of us are finding out that the audience doesn't give a damn if we use arranger mode, SMF's or outright karaoke. But it OUGHT to make a difference to US... We DO consider ourselves musicians, don't we?

I'm not saying anyone should stop doing what they are doing (I know I'm not!), I simply feel that perhaps we should be a little more honest with each other, and especially ourselves about what we are doing.

I have been very fortunate to have played with many great musicians (and drummers ) over my lifetime. No matter HOW good I think any arranger sounds, I have the memory of playing with combos that sounded MUCH, MUCH better, could change it up on a dime, and could push me to playing better than I thought I could. No machine is EVER going to give me that, and I'm sorry, but THAT is what I call 'making music'...

The rest is 'making money'

(I just moved house, so if your rockets are zeroed in on my old address, I'm afraid I'm not there any more!)

Happy New Year... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

Good points, Diki.

It's always great to have a "live" drummer and bass player....when you can find them.

Unfortunately that's not always the case, and when the next best thing is using an arranger for those parts, then that's what you have to do.

I like playing piano and my new Yamaha KX8 lets me do LH bass as well, so most times I only use arranger drums.

And yes, it shouldn't be all about money, but unfortunately, it has to be that way if we want to make a living at what we love....it's okay if I'm living off a retirement fund, or I'm wealthy through inheritance, but in reality, I'm not, so I gig the ways that make me happy AND make me money.

Ian

I'm right there with you Ian... I've got no objection to making money

I simply feel that sometimes our enthusiasm for arrangers here at SZ occasionally blinds us to what we are doing. I read post after post from players that seem to indicate they think playing with an arranger IS 'playing music' at it's highest level, and all I can do is shake my head... Perhaps they have never had a band that made them feel like a musical God, or perhaps they chose to forget those older musical memories, in favor of memories about musical or business differences with these players (it's all too easy to focus on the negative, but what does that say about us as musicians, when personal differences outweigh a great musical contribution?).

But I honestly think that if anyone DOES think their arranger sounds better than any combo they have ever been in, they simply have not had the luck (or talent ) to play with others of that caliber. And I feel a little sorry for them. Until you DO play with the best, it MIGHT be possible to tell yourself that your arranger IS 'making music'. But once you do, only self-deception can make you still think that.

I LOVE money I HATE self-deception

Good comments all...

No rockets, but yeah, I disagree with you 1000000% Diki about playing an arranger is no different from a karaoke thing.

I can see where in theory, you'd might imagine that, but in reality, its a (advance apology for the harshness of the word...) sign of ignorance on your part.

#1, the obvious difference is that as a karoake singer, you're pretty well at the mercy of the file your singing to. When I play, the kb follows my commands. I interact with it...

Sometimes I ride a style, sometimes I clean one out and only use a portion of it...other times, I don't use a style at all but just play the kb straight. All the while singing. Changing instruments, breaking down a section, modulating, etc. Can a kareoke singer effect a key change on demand? Nope...

If you were close to me I'd love for you to come out and take in one of my gigs. From all the stuff I've read from you over the last several months...I don't think you compare what I do every day to a kareoke thing.

I'd like to think that I'm honest with myself and what I do...Working regularly as a omb and in a quartet I understand the difference, for sure. It IS different, yes...There is interaction, perhaps in a different way, but its there.




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Bill in Dayton

I think we have the "2008 conceited post of the year" award winner...

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, Diki...

We can continue this discussion on a fresh thread, but let's try and keep this one for people's comments on my original post, ok?



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Bill in Dayton

Sometimes, broad strokes are what's called for....

Conceited? I wasn't trying to be. I honestly think that many members here have gone through the same thing. But all too often, we let ourselves get caught up in the technology, and forget that 'music' isn't really about little tiny snippets of repeated loops (unless you are into hiphop!), but about the conversation between humans with instruments in their hands.

After all, all of the music (or most of it, at least) that we are trying to play hasn't got ANY machines on it. We are trying to use machines to play music that was made by humans. That's an uphill battle, at best!

Sorry you think this has no place on YOUR thread... Funny, but I thought it was OUR forum (it's Nigel's, really ). And that these things are sort of conversations. Next time you have a conversation with your friends, when you get to the end of it, try to remember if that is still on where it started... Chances are, it isn't.

As a follow on to someone that questions continuing to use live players, or go to OMB completely, I thought that an examination of our attitudes towards 'live' versus 'arranger' music MIGHT still be OT.

My mistake...

One two cha cha cha.

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Like someone else said, I love you man, but go steal somebody else's thread...

We can have that discussion if you like...But this thread was very specifically focused on the situation I have with regard to my band and the pros/cons of keeping it going or ending it.

To morph into a discussion of arrangers vs. non arranger musical entities is too far off the beaten path. If I didn't ask you/everyone to please stay on topic, no doubt this thread would've veered off and I don't want that.

As far as conversations and friends go...Well, if I bring a problem to them and ask for their thoughts, most of my friends don't stray off the subject. If we're just having a casual nothing specific chat, then sure, we're all over the place...

Cheers-



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Bill in Dayton

Bill, have you talked about their inability to rehearse with them? Just wondering what their position is on having more rehearsals.

I play in a classic rock band that I have been in for 8 years now. We still rehearse one day a week simply to keep adding new songs. It simply makes it more fun for us to increase our range of material plus it is nice to be able to pull out new songs for audiences that have seen us many times. They appreciate the variety.

Yes, in fact we talked about it last night. Drummer works a mid shift (8a-8p) every day except T/W when he teaches at a local music store from 3:30pm - 10:00pm...The other two guys work traditional 9-5 type jobs. That is a big part of the issue. No real options there either.

Generally, the feeling from them goes like this..."Bill, we know between 80-100 tunes. We never repeat a song ever during the night and eventually a new tune will sound great. Why consider something as drastic as ending the band?"

By a scheduling quirk, we'll be back at the same club on Saturday night that we played on NYE. So it was a perfect time to bring in a chunk of new stuff. I brought in lead sheets for nine new tunes last night. We got five of them worked into the gig and 4/5 weren't so bad for a 1st time run through. (Yes, this is the exact point that bugs me...) The other, was pretty rough.

(I should say people danced for all the new stuff, no one complained or looked at us funny...But I knew it wasn't as good as it could be...)

Given the lack of rehearsal, I often email the charts out with video links of renditions that will give them the idea of what I'm looking for...

It just drives me wild what progress we could make on a tune if we even had 15 minutes to shape it up...



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Bill in Dayton

Just tell them the gig starts an hour earlier than it really does... then use that hour to talk through the arrangements.

I'll have to admit that, like it or not, arrangers make it possible for me to make 1/2 of my playing income. And, it's lots easier to do a single with. But if versatility, improvisation and yes, Diki, FUN are important, there's nothing better than playing with other players. I'm the proudest dad/grandpa ever seeing my two guys start to really gel as a rythem section (piano/guitar-me-drums-grandson-bass-son).
Thing is, this is like a workshop. My son goes from electric upright to 6 string active bass. Material is everything from Giant Steps and Four to John Mayer, with a little Santana
and Earl Clugh thrown in.
It's something we can share together. Money? Sadly, I only get $350-500 for the trio-depending on the hours involved, and get $250.00-500 as a single for the same hours.

Is it worth it?


Damn right it is!


Russ (proud POP) Lay

I bet it is. Sounds like a hot trio you have there. And the satisfaction you must get just can't be measured in terms of money. I can understand both sides. If your income depends on the amount you earn then playing as a single can't be beat. But on the other hand if you are playing music for the satisfaction only then playing with other musicians is simply inspiring and brings out more in you than playing by yourself. If you can do both then you have the perfect balance.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-01-2009).]

I think it's difficult to play as a single unless you've got just a little bit of 'entertainer' in you. Even harder if you don't sing. JMO.

chas

With regards to rehearsing for an hour before we actually played, does any one it might look a little odd/unprofessional?



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Bill in Dayton

Bands I have been in have managed decent improvement with a 'silent' run through, backstage. Just sticks, guitar & bass not plugged in, acoustic vocals. Although not perfect, a talk through and dry run beats nothing at all....

(Here's one place where a small light arranger with built-in speakers actually DOES work for you!)

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-02-2009).]

Ditto!

Gary

Nothing wrong with a musician having a little 'entertainer' in him...

And nothing wrong with an entertainer remembering to be a bit of a 'musician', too