http://www.ketron.it/audya/index.asp

I like

Very very nice,
I ran the demo's through my setup and it sounds great, the drums really kick, the saxes sound nice. I think Ketron has topped their previous keyboards and I don't know but I see korg, yamaha & roland in the rear view mirror.

Time will tell, it depends on the pricing now,



[This message has been edited by mc (edited 12-05-2008).]

I have a few quibbles with some of the sounds but overall most of them are very nice. The Flugel Horn is excellent in my opinion. Some of the acoustic Drum Kits are outstanding! Makes the Tyros3 Drum kits sound pale in comparison. The Sax's for the most part are pretty good too but the T3 might still have the edge in that regard. The Stereo Grand Piano was especially nice. I would think there should also be a way to adjust the Piano string resonance to lessen or increase it if desired??

The Live Folk Guitar was very good and it had a real live acoustic sound to it, making it sound pretty authentic in the acoustic realm.

I'm surprised there were not any demos really dedicated to demonstrating B3 and other organ sounds but what organs I heard in the style songs were fairly good. I hope Ketron will try and showcase some of the Audya's B3 organs at some point before its release. And more Electric Piano demos would be nice too.

Best,
Mike

PS: BTW, the TooSwing (Original) and the TooSwing (Audya Lead Mute) on the website are the same file i.e. the Lead Mute file apparently. The webmaster needs to be aware that they're the same file and correct the anomaly as soon as possible in my opinion.

The El.Piano on Tenor Club 1 shows better than the sax. Sounds better (E.Piano) to me than my brand new Fantom G . Overall, sounds really good. I agree with mike that the Tyros might have the edge (okay, DOES have the edge) with the sax voices. I liked the jazz guitar better than the 'jazz guitar' from the T2 that I normally use, but won't spring for 4-5 grand to get it (I'll wait and buy Donny's ).

At the moment, we need to know more (or learn Italian). So far, so good.

chas

Me like-y... bigtime!

Those are some pretty great demos, on the whole. Great punchy sound, outsatnding styles, one of the most live backing sections from an arranger ever...

In fact, they are SO good, they bring up my only worry about the Audya (other than the price, of course!)... I am going to want ALL the styles to sound this good, and I'm going to want loads MORE styles in the future to be this good, and I'm going to need a bunch of styles in perhaps non-European styles (country, both modern and classic, alternative rock, reggae - lots of those! - New Orleons funk, cajun, emo, ska amongst many others) and of course I'm going to want an ever-expanding library of styles. In all fairness, with the technology incorporated into the Audya, and factoring it's cost, I am NOT going to want to be trading it for the Audya2 anytime soon just to get some new styles.

It's got a sampler, so I don't want to trade for the Audya2 for new sounds, either...

But the problem is going to be, what is Ketron's commitment to an ever-expanding library of this quality styles..? Because imported or converted styles are going to sound like dog poo in comparison, and there's no way you are going to want to sound THAT good on one song, and blah on another.

Because they incorporate audio loops, you are not going to be able to create your own styles, even if you WERE capable of making close to factory ROM quality styles on a MIDI based arranger. At least, nowhere near as easy, IMO...

Because, at the moment, it will be a product with no sister arranger downmarket to up the profitability (more models using the same styles will make it more likely they would be developed), what are the odds that Ketron will keep producing more styles as good as these, especially in non-traditional (at least non-European traditional!) styles, and what are they likely to cost?

Because, I get one of these, I am going to want a BOATLOAD more equally as good

You bring up a good point Diki. How committed will Ketron be in producing brand new styles that incorporate audio loops into them "after" the Audya ships?? > Now would be a good time for AJ to comment on this if he knows anything and Ketron doesn't demand he keep his lips zipped regarding this subject.

Another HUGE concern is after purchase support from Ketron. If I buy an Audya do I need to ship it back to Italy if it needs repair? I don't think AJ's shop will repair an Audya will they? If it needs to go back to Italy I will be without an arranger keyboard for months on end! And that would be totally unacceptable!! Even if AJ's shop could repair it, that would be a 6,000 mile round trip and probably take at least six weeks (more like 2 months or beyond) before getting it back...

"Ask not what you can do for Ketron, ask what Ketron can do for you!" A simple affirmative reply would be nice. AJ???

Best,
Mike

BTW, Dom, if you are trolling this thread....

I've got a sneaking suspicion your arranger COULD sound this good. It's got the technology. But these Audya demos kick major ass, and yours are, well, you know what we think of most of those

Ketron are spending the money on getting high quality, professional demos, high quality professional styles and loops, and I honestly think they are going to sell very well, at least in comparison to the MS for that very reason. NOT because technically it's any better than the MS. In fact, without VSTi capability, it ISN'T...

But it SOUNDS better on those demos, and that is where most are going to get their conclusions from, and make their buying decisions. Perhaps NOW is the time to take a break from never-ending OS upgrades, and finally concentrate on this, I think what most of us here would consider the MOST important aspect of an arranger (or at least the most important consideration while we are shopping around)...

The CONTENT, and the demos...

Although these demos are pretty good if you know how to play, it will be interesting to see how the Audya stacks up to Top Dog TYROS 3 in sound, support & sales.
I predict it to be more of an expensive specialty piece vs a mainstream Home Arranger. Time will tell & so will the Price especially in these economically stressed times.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-05-2008).]

Sweet Mary.., those were some good demos! On several of them I found myself struck with what they call the "stank face" This new Ketron is going to have some nasty kits too. I've brought up in the past many times how good quality drums, and WELL programed drum parts (along with killer acoustic/eletric bass sounds that too are well programed) can make or break a style.

Ketron is really going to blow the "Live in your face" appeal through the roof IMO with this new model. I will say one thing though. I have yet to hear a Ketron sax that thrills me. Ketron is making some great sounding arrangers, but IMO they have to step up the game in the sax department to compete with Yamaha's Super Articulated Sax (IMO is the best Sax I've heard to date on any keyboard).

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-05-2008).]

Demo text translation

"Audya has beyond 300 new ones styles, the majority of which uses sequences of battery in Audio Real perfectly synchronized with the clock midi. Thanks to the new Audio function Style Modeling it is possible also to modify and to personalize the styles in order to create new apt accompaniment to own requirements. Audya possesses moreover 240 53 Grooves percussive and Drum sets three of the queli are Super Drum Kit multilayer. Of continuation some musical pieces realized using the ritmiche parts, the sounds and the agreements included in the instrument."

I believe that the audya will do very well in Europe. I think the pricing was about 3800 euros or it may have even come down. It maybe a little harder here in the states due to the euro vs. dollar. As far as sales of the T3 vs sales of the Audya, the T3 will most likely out sell the Audya only because you have more dealers worldwide and yamaha has a lot more marketing muscle. Sound wise I have yet to try the audya but owning so many ketrons in the past (about all of them) my feeling is that it's going to blow the T3, Pa2x out of the water.

As far as repairs and support, I don't believe that any Ketron will have to go to italy for repairs. when Bell Ketron was open, I never had a problem with repairs, they almost had 99% of all the parts on present keyboards and even on the older ones and if they needed a part it came quickly from Italy. I not sure about Ted at CMC but I'm sure that they will do a good job as did Lou from Bell Ketron.

Style library, well just have to wait and see. They have a big style library for the MS series and the X series. Hopefully they will do it again for the audya.



[This message has been edited by mc (edited 12-05-2008).]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v7hcuR7zFY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfwNDgSNBhY

listening....is Audya really that much better?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-05-2008).]

You might want to get a better monitoring system or clean the cotton out of your ears if you believe the Audya didn't sound much better than the PSR-S900. It was very apparent on my monitors the Audya demos were punchier, more live, more realistic, and on an entirely different level than any Yamaha arranger I've heard or owned. The ghosting and snare buzz on the drums alone show that Ketron took the time to make the drums sound real.

Given the fact MP3's are but a fraction of the true frequency range of the real instrument the Audya probably sounds phenomenal in person. I've played the PSR-S900 in person many times and I just don't understand what the hype is about it. Yamaha arrangers are thin, canned sounding, and their stereo separation is quite poor. With the exception of a few SA2 voices I don't see Yamaha offering anything that puts them ahead of any other TOTL arranger.

Yamaha could have made great strides forward with the T3 and put the high end Clavinova Piano as standard on the T3 and had hundreds of SA2 voices instead of just a few. The reason they didn't, to make more money! Adding a few hundred MB piano sound to the Tyros 3 would easily cut into their Clavinova sales and there's no way that Yamaha would allow that. Utilizing hundreds of SA2 voices would have taken far more ROM which costs money. Rather than lower their profit margin Yamaha would prefer to sell the customer short and make them want the next model. Hope is an amazing thing and it's making Yamaha rich, keeping hope alive that their next TOTL arranger will be the panacea. It never is, it probably never will be, but those that believe the hype plink down their hard earned cash to find out.

Click on the English (Union Jack) flag on the top right of the page, click the New Demos button and all the details will then be in English.

Regards

Bill

ok, i listened to all demos,

now i like AUDYA more...great demos

BUT...BUT

the Dance styles to me are lacking big time

they reaaly lack that deep kick, that deep bass,
these Ketron dance styles sounded thinner than any dance styles i have ever heard,

maybe its an overall eq issue with these particular styles,

but these dance styles would NOT get me out of my seat to dance..

maybe Ketrons drums are too "live" for cutting edge modern dance/trace/club/pop stuff,

it seems Ketron is all about live, acoustic sounding , which is great ,

but to me it lacked that "modern" sound

but i guess you can't have one arranger that does it all

Ketron needs to incorporate modern sounds too, and "in your face deep kicks drums, and deep bass, 808 kits and the like

and then they will have the ULTIMATE arranger

but i like the AUDYA so far...

i just hope that all parts can be EQ'd and apply effects individually as you can on Roland,

It sounds great.... and has 76 keys...

It sounds better then T3 or PA2X out of the box, but is it just as expandable ?

Now thats the question..

Most of what your hearing are "GROOVES" that are pre-recorded add-ons like the SD5 uses verses just a style alone...so essentially your playing along with an mp3 riff. Now how many grooved per style are there or is there only one if so wont that be very repetitive sounding if you use them .

IMO, most important is whether or not third party audio loops (bass, drums and guitar) can be imported in to the keyboard and used with any style.

Is all this loop, riff, mp3, snippits add ons a good thing or is it taking arranger KB playing down another avenue that says "FAKER" more & more to an audience?
Pretty soon they'll be calling us "RIFFEOKE" artists Music is getting more automatic, players are getting more lazy.....when will it end?

It'll end Donny when we're giving voice commands to our keyboards.., and rather than actually play something.., just simply tell the keyboard to do whatever we need

My question is what's the sample rate of these new audio loops....

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-06-2008).]

Squeak that's a very sad musical playing scenario & someone has to pay almost $5000.00 for this New luxury

Arranger makers are really doing their best I think to make these keyboards sound as live as possible. However, one drawback to that is it doesn't in any way help the negative stereotype on arrangers and those who play them.

Arrangers today have amazing voices.., and the guitar and bass tracks within styles really stand out (not to forget the killer drums on some arrangers too). Using the original Tyros compared to the Tyros 3 for example.., shows this move forward on Yamaha's end just over a few years through ONE model. It just may get to the point of being "too real"... (if that makes any sense). Yamaha's SA voices really stand out.., Korg has brought this level to the PA series.., Roland introduced the guitar mode. With the increasing realism.., it may get harder to convince the crowd you're actually playing.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-06-2008).]

Donny, I can't believe you're now preaching my old message. That's why I have never used an arranger on a gig....EVER. I have played with a drum machine (80's, early 90's) but mostly with live musicians. Which brings me to my next point.

Do the drums sound great? Absolutely, but compared to what? Even the better loops, patterns and kit voices, those with great dynamics ("live feel"), pale in comparison to a (good) live drummer. The reason, I think, is the instant change in dynamics that a real drummer gives you in response to what you're playing, or what the song calls for in that particular spot; in other words, musicianship.

Yeah, I know all the arguments about late-for-rehearsal/gig, losing time, showing up loaded/stoned, having to get his drum set out of the pawn shop for the third time this month, stupid, unwashed, constantly hitting on the singer, etc., etc. BUT, the second he makes the first hit on his acoustic set, you instantly know it's a live drummer up there. Not only will YOU know it, so will the audience. SOOOO, the question is? How much am I willing to pay for a KB 'cause it's got 'great sounding drums'? Hard to say. If I were doing OMB, maybe a lot, otherwise, not so much. In the studio, I'd rather have an electronic kit (or controller kit) because of space limitations, noise control, midi editing, flexibility (different kits), etc.

Other than the drums, I like the usual suspects for solo voices (and comping, if in the studio, especially guitar); piano, guitar, El. Piano, brass. Sax is hard for me. Even with the good-sounding SA Sax (I have a T2), I have a really difficult time getting it to sound as good as the demo would have you believe. In fact, I have a SonicCell, Fantom G, Triton, Motif ES, PA1x, and some softsynths, and none of the saxes really works for me. It's probably me .

Okay, enough. Just trying to put the importance of drums on an arranger in perspective (I think I still prefer the Korgs).

chas

Chas.., I'm with you. Over the years here on the Zone.., I've brought up the drums issue quite a bit. I've always felt the base of any style sounding "real, or live" is it MUST have solid drums.., and well programed drum parts. Bass (both electric and acoustic) are also just as important. These two parts (IMO) are the glue that holds a style together.., so they MUST be done right. That's why I've always favored Roland's drums. IMO they're more expressive and take better advantage of velocity switching compared to other makers. Plus if there's one thing Roland nailed to the ground.., it's electronic drums (those V-Kit's are amazing).

As far as the Saxes..., for me, the first time I laid hands on a Tyros 2 and tested out that SA sax..., I nearly messed my pants. That sound just felt like it was a natural extension to my finger tips and I really connected with it. Now some of the SA guitars left me scratching my head a little..., as I had a few issues with the nuances (and at what point they came into the sound).

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-06-2008).]

Dependent upon how Ketron has the files structured and the software used it is possible to tag sections of each audio file, have them repeat, change pitch, tempo, EQ, envelope, filter, etc. This means you could take a short audio file and have it play back in numerous ways making it not seem like one audio file. The Audya timestretch demo wasn't anywhere near the quality of my Fairlight but at least the capability is in the Ketron. If Ketron's software is top notch and they include lots of high quality grooves (audio files), the possibilities will abound. So far it sounds like they are definitely on the right path.

The Tyros 3's only expansion capabilities that I know of are loading Yamaha proprietary voice files (which I don't believe are available yet) and installing a larger hard drive. Loading third party samples into any Yamaha keyboard is a waste of time unless you don't mind waiting a long, long, long time.

The Korg is expandable and can load third party samples which is a big plus. The Audya can also load samples so in respect to expandability, the Audya and Korg win out over the Tyros 3.

Chas an arranger is a very useful tool for the OMB player who is making a living there's nothing wrong with that in any way shape or form.Your all alone & need to sound like a full band plain & simple all gigs are not, jazz piano or solo intimate cocktail dinner gigs, there's no way around pumping a full dance floor with dance music of any kind alone with having help with the likes of Styles, SMF, Riffs, loops, Mp3/CD backing tracks...times have changed, audience acceptance has really changed, musicians have changed, weather we accept it or not. You have to do what you have to do.....& guess what its gonna get much worse down the road just wait and see.No matter what happens, if your a player your a player, if your a faker so be it because in today's world sadly its ALL accepted right or wrong.

Thank You


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-06-2008).]

Donny, whoa. I agree with every word you're saying. I was just lamenting the direction musicians seem to be going, perhaps putting too much emphasis on the ease of getting a good performance (courtesy of arranger features) as opposed to being a good player. Of course, the advantage of being a good player is that you can sound good on just about anything. Wanna' be a hero? Let the electricity go or your synth go kaput in the middle of a gig, and you calmly walk over to the old (but tuned ) upright in the corner, and proceed to 'wow' them (well, for one tune anyway). After that, you could play SMF's or MP3's all night and it would be okay.

chas

Good points Chas. I've always said here before.., you want to see how well you can play.., turn off the auto accomp. every now and then.

Arrangers are great, but don't become too reliant on that auto accomp. Keep your chops in shape and turn it off from time to time

I don't get it, Audya is arranger just like many other arrangers that were designed for players to have the ability of having a full band at there finger tips without actually having the other 4-5 players. The audya, just like many other brands have developed a keyboard, which now sound like a real live band and I mean a real live band! What is the problem.... Not to long ago we were playing arrangers that had wind instruments or brass instruments that sounded like a moose humping a tree in the woods.

Arrangers will always have limitations compared to a live band, but I tell you what I would take the audya over a live band in a heart beat, also I sure that there isn't to many live bands out there that will sound as good as the audya.

I think this new Ketron sounds great.. I do however feel they need to play catch up with a few of their sounds though.

Regardless.., I'd take a REAL live band any day over ANY keyboard on the market. There's nothing IMO that replaces that. I don't care how much the bloody thing cost. NO keyboard will replace what a group of live musicians can do.

I have listen this new demos too and on the web are really good!
But before we can say really GOOD, we know the story of the Yamaha T3 demos and the T3 demos who made at home are totally different.
This because and for sure yammy will full process and then post online and then in Real the T3 sounds about the same like the T2.

I think is the same story with the Audya..the al demos seem more a sequences made with a SEQ and NOT played in realtime.
Are to mcu perfect, no one wrong notes and all the global sounds have a lot of reverb..

sorry but for me smell strange...but we will know when you there you can play with your hands.

In my last post I have asked who in Audya will make the sampler...the PC CPU Intel or the Dream 9708 chipset??
they have updates the demos and seem also the specifications: http://www.ketron.it/prodotti/dettagli.asp?sezione=1&idProdotto=30

197 notes, it mean that are two dream chip.
sam9708 can drive Up to 256Mb ROM/RAM, sam 9707? about 64Mb ROM/RAM..
HOW can the PC Pentium intel manage only 64Mb sampler??
If I'm wrong, just correct me.

the two chips DSP are only 16bit with a lot of noise effects and can NOT share the memory RAM/ROM.

How you told before the problem is the ROM grooves, what happen if you want load more samples?
About then the long loading time and RAM limitation, wich DSP engine will load this new samples? The arranger/midiplayer DSP or the Keyboard sampler DSP?

Please, you can just compare right now the new styles that they have posted, but you can not compare with the open way of the qranger system.
In qranger we dont have ANY RAM, midi and audio tracks limitation, all is realtime straming with also unlimited mid Outputs.

One week more and then we release the OS ubuntu and we are also ready for remake all again the al new styles. ( the system Qranger is totally changed to native version)


Let's wait when this Audya will be available, play with yours hands and then we can discuss more..
Take the example and the story of the T3....

Enjoy what you play...

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 12-06-2008).]

I play Ketron when necessary. I choose to play live with real players whenever possible.

A machine will never do it for me.


Russ

Chas buddy it's too late, the musical downfall demise is already in play for years.$Money$ Prevails vs Talent now .....it's a sorry sad state of affairs....we're doomed!

Ummm, but who would you rather hear in a club, the Audya or the group of musicians that played the parts live on those loops? Just asking?

chas

Like this Chas........?
http://www.b3monaco.com/


"I'll Remember Jimmy" song which blows me away toward the end when Tony starts to strech out OMG those full power chords!!!!!

The Yamaha Tyros "BeBop" Jazz style takes a stab at this kind of trading solos on VAR4 & 2.....

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-06-2008).]

Yeah, take that Audya.

Good stuff. Tony's a great player. Your piasanos do pretty well after the brothers show them how . (PLEASE note the EXTRA smilies).

chas

Well, there you go again, Dom... (only Reagan quote you'll ever get from me!)

Here we are, talking MUSIC, and here you are babbling techno-jive. You just don't get it, do ya? We don't give a rats whether there are 8 bit converters or a V12 under the hood...

We care what it sounds like. 24 bit crap sounds worse than 12 bit great music. Period. And yes, everybody sequences demos. They sequence them from arranger play, then edit, whatever. So do most of us, at least those using them for recording and writing purposes, and many live users are a mix of arranger and sequenced. So please, don't comne on all high and mighty.

Stop quoting some technical bull, and start to realize that we don't care. We care the MOST about what the demos sound like, because it gives us an accurate idea of what is the BEST that the machine could sound. Great players and programmers, making the most of the onboard sounds and styles.

So far, you haven't given us a CLUE about what is the BEST the MS can sound. In fact, you've given many of us what we hope is the WORST it could (Lord help us if it could sound even worse in our hands! ).

Just hire someone as good as Ketron have used, to make demos for your arranger... On board sounds, styles and grooves. Beat the Ketron demos, or no-one in their right mind is going to think the MS is better. No matter HOW many chip facts, bitrate comparisons or other technobabble you spout.

REAL musicians don't care. They don't have to. They can hear it in the demos. But if the demos suck, none of us are going 'wow! listen to those converters! that's the most pristine sounding crap I ever heard!'

Don't be muscled. It takes tremendous talent and countless hours of preparation to play a professional arranger performance. Put the chops and vocals together and you can rival anyone. I've heard bands that cannot even play the right chords - acoustic or not, they sound like crap in some cases. Give me a good arranger performance over a bad band performance any day.

Zuki, that was never the issue. Read the whole thing before your knee starts jerking.

chas

Sorry Chas - won't match wits against you - you're too clever.

whatever

Agreed. If you are going to use Audio loops a decent controller and a Notebook computer with some decent VSTis could sound just as good. There are some really great sample libraries out there for far far less money.

Like DIKI says its ALL about styles. thats what Arrangers are for. Without styles just about any TOTL workstation and all computer based samplers will blow away many Arrangers.

Without a boatload of styles the Audya would be akin to owning a Ferrari in NYC.

The proof is already out there that live bands don;t matter....K A R A O K E....

There are places here paying $45 an hour for Karaoke/Dance music. One person 5-6 hours 7 nights a week in the Spring Summer and Fall (3 nights in Dec Jan Feb) with a notebook computer and Roxbox and WinAmp hooked into the house system. Do the math.

Bands are not the money earners here in Myrtle Beach. There are far more venues for singles,duos and Karaoke DJs paying more per individual then a band member would earn and working in one's own backyard rather then driving hours to gigs,

Still haven't seen an Arranger player in a club or restaurant though. To this day I have never witnessed a single or duo with a Arranger keyboard. Tracks and drum machines, But no Arrangers. I find that strange given many play with tracks and/or drum machines including my wife who has earned her living for 30 years playing. She won't take the T3 to a gig. Always 88 and tracks made with the T3 and RD700.

I'd rather hear the Audya. You rarely hear a band that can afford a professional Sound engineer in a club with their own PA. Bands sound a lot rougher (some may say more "live")and far louder and harsh than the smooth well mixed sound of an Arranger keyboard of any brand.

I'd rather SEE a live band that has show. I would rather HEAR a good player with an Arranger in the same venue.

I like these Audya demos. Finally somebody is making a keyboard that works like it should in 2008, right out of the box.

But when is the release date? I thought it was supposed to be out last year already...

And I would like to hear some of the Brass, trumpet and Electric guitar samples that can be played on the Audya (not the Audio ones that were recorded by live musicians.)

Right out of the box? Nah, don't think it is, but the demos sounds nice.
Looking forward to see a "live" demo similiar to the T3 demos we've seen.
GJ

What about support, service, parts, & timely repairs if needed? Where?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41svt8FAKrU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckhG9weg1Ls&feature=related


How come these demos dont sound like the new posted ones?....intense studio processing & EQ comes to mind. But real demos played by the average player is what I want to listen too before I make a decision, then I want to play it first hand. remember ....When the Fog lifts you can see the road again




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-07-2008).]

....or, braking tailights two feet in front of you .

As I said in my previous post, I never had a problem with any repairs, etc, when Bell Ketron was open. I hope Ted from CMC can shed some light if they will they continue the same serve as Lou did at Bell Ketron.

Also keep in mind the two youtube video are almost a year old. So it's hard to compare a glimpse of a prototype verses a finished product soon to be released.


[This message has been edited by mc (edited 12-07-2008).]

Fair enough...I also have owned & performed with many Ketron products through the years also.....but, in any event besides AJ's lab here in Philly.....& CMC in Brooklyn.....where are the other service centers in the USA.

We don't even have a completed "Promo" model yet. let alone good demos!

If I hadn't of cancelled I'd STILL be sitting here twiddling my thumbs waiting for some new upgrade Dom did, which of course then made the rest of the OS drop dead, so more waiting until that was re-configured, and on and on it goes.

It was why I had to withdraw from the Promo offer. It was turning into an audya as far as delivery dates went!

And I was quite annoyed as I REALLY wanted to get one of these...

So Dom, do yourself a favour, STOP trying to upgrade the keyboard every week, get some folks to program some decent demos, and get the thing "out there".

Dennis

I've heard people play a Roland E60 and was blown away, I've also heard people play a Tyors 3 and yawn.

Just because you own a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

All things considered I truely like what I hear, the drums and bass are the foundation of a rythm section which in turn is also the foundation of a song, in turn is what drives people to dance and enjoy.

So all things considered, i'm very excited and I'm probably going to get rid of my PA2xpro and midjay for a Audya.

Since I've been bothering Ted for almost 2 years now I hope the first Audya comes to my store. Everyone is welcomed down to play and enjoy, but I ain't selling that one.

get your own

Well I see Ketron HAS zipped AJ's lips shut apparently.

Unless we caught him at an inopportune time and he's on the road this holiday season visiting relatives, etc. My guess is though, that Ketron hasn't given him a green light to discuss aftermarket audio style support for the Audya at this time (or ever). Which makes me wonder?? Why does Ketron have such a hard time divulging or even discussing various product information to an interested public about their product's features and/or support?? It tells me at least, that right off the bat, there is this "gulf" that separates the company from the masses. And the "masses" are the ones buying the company's products in the first place.

One thing I have to give Yamaha is that Steve Deming (and other Yamaha employees) are their "lifeline" to consumers, which helps immensely in the selling of Yamaha keyboard products to the general public. The more people know about a product or products, the more willing they are, in my opinion, to fork over the necessary cash for that particular company's products. When the communication is brief or "obscure", or few and far between, there are going to be a lot of question marks on people's minds regarding the product(s) - that are still left unanswered and unresolved. You would think if Ketron "really" wanted the Audya to sell well, they would be bending over backwards getting the word out and speaking as much as possible to concerned consumers about the Audya. Everything seems soooooooo top secret with the Audya that it makes you wonder if it even exists in the first place (demos or no demos ), or worse yet, it was put together in such a happenstance manner; and therefore released to a belying, and unsuspecting general public who haven't the foggiest.

>> Maybe AJ feels intimidated by me is all. Possibly, and preferrably, if someone else (who he likes ) would ask him, then maybe he would be more inclined to reply and answer questions put forth to him?? I just want answers, that's all.

Maybe someone higher up on the chain at Ketron would be willing to give us some answers as well.

Luv ya AJ! We just want some answers dude.. Whether from you or from anyone else at Ketron proper. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img] Just some answers... and some reassurance about the Audya too if possible. [img]http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Happy/happy-thumb-up-045.gif[/img]

Best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 12-07-2008).]

After sale style development is going to depend a lot on how many of these they sell, or (as I said earlier) if Ketron develop a down market model that uses the same technology, which would increse the potential market for them.

They are expensive to produce, I would imagine, compared to one guy with a MIDI arranger and a lot of talent (or the mythic TEAM of MIDI players we are told about - but oh so mysteriously, never introduced to ). Without a LOT in the market place, they are going to have to be quite expensive, I would imagine.

You know the one thing that is probably going to decide it, for me? Whether the sampler loads at close to computer speeds, and whether it will accept standard Akai format sample disks. Get that one thing right, and this could be a serious contender, albeit at the very upper price range. Anything not covered well in the sound ROM could be added... but it HAS to be quickly.

Ok ... just got back from Italy. I see you guys got a hold of our new demos already (my fingers still hurting as there was little time to make these with the actual PRODUCTION model - YES - PRODUCTION [not prototype depicted in all current YouTube ...etc videos, hence the difference]!!).

Let me start answering some questions ...from the top ...

great news!
we're all ears... and eyes!

some pictures?...

Dikki & Keybplayer:- When we designed the MS series and introduced GROOVES, we followed with a good library of styles with new GROOVES (MS100/60/50&40). When we developed the X and SD series, we repeated this. In that same Ketron tradition, we will follow with a new library of styles with Audio parts incorporated for Audya too - have no fear about this - it's what we do.

As far as repairs go, we’ll utilize our current and future dealer network in the US. I’ll get the cases the dealers can’t handle (same situation existed with Bell Douvox [previous US Ketron distributors]) – and our turn-around time will still remain faster than most of our competitors (usually 5 business days or less).

Dnj:- Yes, these demos are a lot better than those we did about 1-2 years ago. The unit I used on Youtube was a prototype (basically only had the new GM sounds and very limited guitar loops). The unit I used on the demos (some anyway) utilize the full Production AUDYA – what yours will sound like were you to purchase one in January. You may disregard the previous demos you’ve heard to date! Also, we didn’t use RIFF mode in these demos (as we did on the SD5) as we wanted to represent the keyboard to the best of our capability – how it would perform out of the box!

to the genesys:- Third party audio loops (AKAI, WAVE ..etc) will be able to be imported and used with current/new styles. However, there will be some ‘work’ required in advance to ‘mate’ the audio loops to the style in question. You will also be able to (in the same light) create your own audio loops. We will eventually provide software that will assist end-users with this process.

Diki:- Your contrast between Computer terminology and good Music/Sound got me laughing hard … and I’m still laughing about how you wrote what you wrote ... well noted.

Thank you AJ, looking forward to trying one out. When is the release date? and when do you think the manual will be on Ketron's website?

Thanks, Mario

Aj thanx for the update ...I would remove the old Demos on you tube till you can do new ones....aside from that let me know when you have one at the Lab so we can come check it out asap & have some cheesesteaks also OK?

dp

I agree with Donny.., take those old videos down! Let people hear what it sounds like now. Don't follow Roland's trail on this one.., as there are some TERRIBLE company sponsored GW-8 videos still out there..., and the comments were UGLY...

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-08-2008).]

AJ,

possible to add some more "latin" demos

i LOVE this new stuff,

i was particularly interested in hearing teh Cumbia, Bacjhata, Merengue, Soca, Bolero, Passo Doble, Waltz, and the like....

Well that clears some things up.. Thanks AJ.

This is very good news indeed i.e. >> aftermarket audio styles will be produced by Ketron, the ability to load Akai samples and new software to help synchronize imported akai and wave samples to new or existing audio styles with Audya sound engine/OS, and finally, a "solid" release date of January '09.

The icing on the cake would be an affordable price point upon release. I realize Ketron needs to recoup R&D for the Audya and also to make a reasonable profit beyond recouped R&D. But a special "introductory" price would sure go a long way to get the ball rolling once the Audya is released to the public in January. >> I'm not trying to strong arm Ketron of course, I just want them to be aware - as if they're not already, right? - that the world economy has tanked big time and people are holding onto their assets tighter than ever. To get them warmed up to the idea of peeling the fingers off their hard earned cash it may be necessary for Ketron to come in with a low ball price on the Audya and then make up for it after the Audya has gained in popularity and in overall sales. Roland did that very thing with the new Fantom G workstation.

>> So what I am trying to say is hopefully the sticker shock won't be too awfully upsetting, severe, and mind numbing to the masses.

Best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 12-08-2008).]

I would look forward to at least
$3495-$4000 retail for all this wonderful new technology and that is a bargain.

Hey AJ, I just thought I'd throw it out there that if you need another guy to make the audio loops, I'd be interested in auditioning for the job. I play a number of instruments, and might be particularly useful in country and bluegrass styles, where arrangers typically sound pretty bad in my opinion.

I'd still like to hear a MB/sec figure on loading Akai (is that samples or whole multisamples?) and .wav files. For an arranger player, speed is the MOST important consideration, with the 'any song, any time' ethos we have. You can't load everything up in advance you need, because, if you are in a request type scenario, you don't KNOW what you'll need...

AJ?

And thanks for your comment. Some people just don't get it. Geeks don't buy arrangers. MUSICIANS buy arrangers.

Are the audio files (Loops) streamed direct from disc, or do they need to be loaded into Ram first.

Is the CPU bespoke or standard computer

Also don’t forget that 95% of arrangers are bought by Home Players, where ease of operation is paramount.

From what I have heard so far most of it sounds great, so cant wait to hear what it really sounds like, when I get to try and hear it live. (Mp3s are great for starters, but unless you try and hear it live you haven’t got a cat in hells chance of really knowing what it sounds like)

Regards

Bill

I just don't get it... I really don't.

MP3's, especially fairly high bitrate ones (192kbps or 256kbps) are very hard to distinguish from the original sound file. 256kbps especially, done right, is beyond the average listener's capability to distinguish in all but VERY careful A/B comparisons.

I would be astonished if anyone here (considering how elderly most of us are ) is capable of doing a casual double blind listening test between 256kbps MP3's and 16 bit .wav files and consistently picking correctly. There have been all kinds of web double blinds done, and the only thing they show is that some of the MOST convinced 'golden-eared' (at least in their own minds!) detractors of MP3's have been consistently embarrassed by their inability to get it 100% right.

I know it's very fashionable in musician circles to knock the poor MP3, and a LOT of this attitude goes back to the days of poor encoders and very low bitrates needed for modem surfing. But this is the 21st century, things have changed...

Avail yourself of the opportunity to take some of the better double blind tests available from different audio websites. And learn a little humility. The difference between high bitrate MP3 audio and a 16 bit wave is FAR less than you think it is. You can even test for yourself. Got iTunes? Stick a CD in the drive. Let iTunes rip it at 256 MP3 or high rate AAC. It will make a playlist. Now add in the original CD tracks to the playlist. Select 'Shuffle'. Listen to the tracks, and write down which you thought was CD, which MP3. Don't peek!

Compare the list you made with the shuffle list. Few get it right consistently...

In other words, if an arranger sounds great on a web demo, it'll sound great when you play it live. And if it DOESN'T (you know what I'm talking about!), hearing it live won't make it sound sufficiently better to make a difference to a buying decision. Crap is crap, no matter WHAT audio form it comes in, and a great sound isn't rendered much less great (if any) by making a decent quality MP3 of it.

Before you refute me, take the tests. I did. I couldn't pick them 100% at 256kbps. There... I admitted it!

Can you?

I guess a good part of it comes down to how good your open taxi doors are? If your hearing (ears ) are okay with no significant hearing loss (especially in the upper frequency range) a person should be able to distinguish the difference between an .mp3 (which is compressed, therefore losing some of the audio data signal in the higher and lower frequencies in the process, as we know) and a .wav file, which is uncompressed audio, and therefore retaining all of the audio data within the file. Indeed, encoding methods are improving for the .mp3 file format but there is still compression involved and because of it an .mp3 file loses some of the audio quality of the original. That said; I agree wholeheartedly that if an .mp3 demo of a keyboard sounds excellent online, when it is played in person, will undoubtedly sound excellent as well. Very rarely will it turn out otherwise; but most likely it was NOT because the .mp3 was somehow misinterpreted, but because the Company itself didn't portray the keyboard's sounds honestly and accurately to the public in the recordings they provided. Call it embellishing, call it unethical, call it what you like.

That's why it is always a good idea to play a keyboard firsthand before deciding to purchase it. OTOH, if the online demos of a given keyboard sound "underwhelming" you can almost bet the farm that in person it will sound underwhelming as well. The reason being, is that manufacturers are always wanting to put their best foot forward when it comes to showcasing their products, therefore they want to demonstrate how exceptional the sounds are by demoing the 'pick of the litter' so to speak. So if it sounds underwhelming with even the factory produced demos, you can almost bet that it will fizzle at the box office too.

Best,
Mike

You miss interpret my reply

A good mp3 demo may have been processed to sound good, therefore until you play the board you will not know how it sounds in the real world.

In most cases a good board sounds better then an mp3 demo. (A good case in point is the Tyros 3 which if you try it live, blows all the online demos out of the water)

Quote from Mike
The reason being, is that manufacturers are always wanting to put their best foot forward when it comes to showcasing their products, therefore they want to demonstrate how exceptional the sounds are by demoing the 'pick of the litter' so to speak
End Quote

You don’t know Wersi; ask any owner I they will tell you that to get the manufacture to put any demos up at all is like trying to get blood out of a stone. (Wersi has always relied on word of mouth and top artists playing them live for promotions, which is why I say try them live yourself )(Quiz; see how many Wersi manufacture demos you can find from the last 40 years)

Regards

Bill

AJ,

Is it possible to hear distortion guitar and brass demos?

The guitars sound great in the demos, but i can't work out what is audio and what is MIDI. Since I fully customize my keyboards with my own beats, I need to know what my sounds will sound like.

Also, will I be able to record my own audio into my custom styles?

Finally, when is the Audya scheduled for release?

(A good case in point is the Tyros 3 which if you try it live, blows all the online demos out
of the water)
Which is why the exact opposite view was put forth on the Tyros 3, live Vs Recorded thread? All the complaints there were that the demo made the keyboard sound much better than it really sounds out of the box. And that was due to the skill of the demoer, nothing to do with wave versus mp3. Everybody has an opinion.

Diki

When you select a style, it's corresponding AUDIO loops will be streamed directly from the Hard Drive - barely any loading time.

Yes - do do have EQ and other Editable capabilities on ALL tracks.

Thanks,

AJ

AJ,

so we can EQ each and every part bass, drums, guitar?

individual drum EQ on kick, snare, hi-hat, toms, etc,,??

INDIVIDUAL drum reverb?
say i want my Kick dry as the Sahara and my snare wet like the Atlantic?

and AJ please explain effects,
how many?
or better yet how many can be used simultaneously per style/parts etc.

i am spoiled with my Roland G-70 with EQ and effects so...here's hoping...

AJ, I was more referring to how fast sampled instruments load up in the sampler. I believe you have mentioned that 'Live loops' stream directly. But Akai instruments in the sampler will have to be loaded into sample RAM. How fast is THAT pipeline?

I am also still concerned about how well a HD is going to remain viable when asked to stream continuously while the keyboard it is in is being pounded and bouncing around on a stand...

Is it shock mounted?

Diki ... Most samplers or keyboards with samplers the term "load" is language typically used . However , with Ketron Load is not the same meaning.

Let me try to explain.

The only load time will be when the owner wants to create styles with audio loops. You will load the audio loop in to the sampler, you will than slice the sample to match tempo with whatever parts of the style you are creating via midi... Once the audio sync is correct , you will copy the sample to the master folder on the hard drive. Before you copy to hard drive, you will need to name the audio loops the same name as the style for it all to be recognized in real time during a performance.

Example.. Lets say you created & named Bolero , the audio sample name will be Bolero.1 & 2nd sample will be named bolero.2

Now you call up the Bolero style and the sample will instantly stream from the hard drive.. This is how the SD1 & SD1plus currently work and I am certain the Audya will be the same.

Hopefully , this will clear up your concern of how quickly you can access styles with audio samples.

Cheers



[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 12-09-2008).]

My concern WASN'T with the audio loops... that's already been asked and answered.

I simply want to know how fast the sampler (it DOES have a sampler, doesn't it? ) loads at, OK?

Hi AJ,
have they included note editing functions in the style creation section?
Something along the lines of a note event list editor??

best wishes
Rikki

If the data line is fast enough to stream audio directly, then loading time for ordinary samples should be fine.

As to hard disk resilience, then this has not been an issue for years, even a desktop drive can take more then any player can muster. (Even if his fingers are powered by TNT explosives)

Regards

Bill

AJ thanks for your response.

Will there be a PC program where one would be able to connect the keyboard to the computer and perform most of the editing features using the PC?

Interesting... It seems that questions involving sample load time (external samples loaded into the Audya by way of USB) are either being purposefully ignored by AJ, or Ketron U.S. hasn't given him the okay to discuss this topic possibly. One obvious reason for the apparent "silence" would be the Audya only has USB 1.1 and therefore it would be really poky at loading any kind of external audio samples such as .wav files. >> Think Tyros2... OTOH, if the Audya DOES have USB 2.0 you would think Ketron U.S. and/or AJ would be gushing over with enthusiasm telling us of that very fact. Since no one is gushing over and spilling the beans about this VERY pertinent question and topic, it looks like Ketron has quite possibly relegated the Audya to the stone age when it comes to its USB interface apparently. I say "apparently" because the USB 1.1 vs. USB 2.0 for the Audya has YET to be cleared up by either AJ, Ketron U.S., or the company headquarters itself in Ancona, Italy.

Best, Mike

PS:I am very concerned that the Audya will only have USB 1.1 and NOT the 2.0. that everyone is hoping the Audya will have. >> One word from AJ or other personnel at Ketron U.S. could dispel these rumors and concerns in a heartbeat.

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 12-10-2008).]

Lets use the term transfer vs. load

Currently I can transfer a sample from a floppy disk in to the sampler on my SD1 in a matter of seconds.

If you have a sample on a memory stick, it will only take a few seconds ...

Any audio samples that are associated with style play with the Audya will stream from the hard drive, when the style is called up.

Any audio samples form a different source can be transfered in to the sampler in seconds.


If you wish to use the sample with a style, you need to slice it to match tempo of the style you are trying to create. Once you have done this, you transfer the sample to the master folder that controls samples..

all transfering of samples from sampler to hard drive is done internally in seconds.

I am getting a bit tired of 'answers' that aren't really answers...

It 'should' do this, it 'ought' to do that, 'you would think' that this is what might happen...

That's NOT an answer. That is conjecture, pure and simple. You have no more of an idea than I do (I THINK I know what the answer is, but I want to know what it REALLY is).

We've got people with impossible load time estimates (15min for 1GB on a Yamaha... please! ) and totally blue sky estimates, making out like they are giving an answer...

You REALLY need to hedge those bets, and at least admit that you don't actually KNOW.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 12-10-2008).]

There is NOTHING, NOTHING, N-O-T-H-I-N-G-!!! that takes the place of GOOD musicians playing together ... That said, if we NEED to play an arranger, of course we want the best voices, drums, styles, etc. ... THAT being said, what is BEST for one is not necessarily best for another ...

t.

I will shoot a video of me loading a sample in to the sampler of my SD1 ..would that qualify the answers ?

Later tonight..I will do this.. send me an email to dan.oneil@yahoo.com

No... I want to know about the Audya. Not the SD-1.

Are you telling me DEFINITIVELY that the Audya is identical in it's sample load up procedure (NOT loops, but Akai multisamples) to the SD-1? (and if so, it's not exactly a major improvement, then, is it?)

Have you got some Akai disks? Have you loaded Akai mulisamples (a drum kit, or maybe a sampled multi-velocity piano set for example) before? All you have talked about so far is loops into an SD-1. Thanks for the info, but what I am after is Akai multisamples into the sampler section...

The sampler of an Audya, that is...

What I'm after is the time to load 64MB into the sampler, and it be ready to go. If it is slower to read Akai than it's own native format, I would not be surprised, and if possible, I'd like a load time in Akai format and the same load in native (presumably, you can load Akai, create the voice programming in the Ketron, and save as a Ketron sampler load), some samplers load faster in their native format...

Sample load times is one of those untalked about stats. Virtually NO manufacturer out there publishes them in their keyboard specs, but IMO, it is one of the most critical specs that can let you know whether the sampler is a practical live tool, or something only fit for the studio at best.

The Audya, being built around a CPU from a computer, you would THINK loads up a lot faster than embedded systems like the SD-1. So data from an SD-1 isn't (I hope!) indicative of what the Audya does, for good or bad...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 12-10-2008).]

Diki brings up some very good points...

i hope the "silence" on this subject is not indicative of possibly lackluster performance of AUDYA, in particular of sample load times...

only time will tell...
or an official reponse from Ketron of course.

"What I'm after is the time to load 64MB into the sampler..."


From what I know, loop samples are not 64MB.. They are short clips of audio that can be chained together. You are able to take audio clips from multiple sample librarys and sync to a style for looping purpose.


It is not designed to play solo instrument samples that are 64MB...

I just read the Audya specs again and it looks like the Sampler RAM is factory shipped with a total of 64MB already installed with apparently NO ability to expand the RAM. So that means that all the samples you transfer (load) into the Audya will have to be loaded into the Hard Drive??? Whereas the 64MB of Sampler RAM will be used exclusively for audio Instrument loops and only for the purpose of editing the audio loops?? and once edited you transfer them to the Hard Disk where they will be streamed from the Disk when you call them up???

Also, on the USB thingy. I noticed that the Audya has USB to Host AND to Device so I would like to think that the Audya WILL have USB 2.0. I think I noticed that once before but it has been over a year or more since I refreshed my self on the Audya's specs. Presently there is nothing confirmed from Ketron as of yet - but we seem to grope around and find our own rays of light piercing the darkness on occasion without them. Whether those rays of light are actually factual or not is anyone's guess because only Ketron knows for sure what the "real" answers "really" are. And so far they are keeping the USB answer to themselves for whatever reason; and God and Ketron only knows why that is. >> The tip-off is USB to "Device" (if they're using the same term as Yamaha uses To Device for). Korg uses To "Host" to mean an external Hard Drive, Thumb Drive, etc. whilst Yamaha uses To Device to mean the same thing. If the Audya can 'handle' To Device through USB, my guess is the Audya USB interface WILL be USB 2.0. Stranger things have happened though of course, and Ketron could theoretically use USB 1.1 in conjunction with a To Device USB port. Why on EARTH they would ever consider doing such a thing is inconceivable to me though, and hopefully they haven't with the Audya.

But still no word from Ketron regarding the true nature of the Audya's USB interface is mind boggling in itself if you ask me, and leaves a very undesirable taste in my mouth as far as trusting or relying upon Ketron for conclusive answers to my other questions and/or support of their products in the future if I buy one. AJ has answered some of our questions here on this forum and I thank him for that but why does he or Ketron proper have to be soooooooo selective in the questions they deem appropriate to answer?? We're talking about a NEW keyboard being released in approximately a month and Ketron is still hesitant to answer some of our most basic questions about it??? When will they ever learn that you HAVE to GET THE WORD OUT (hello??) if you want people to turn around and purchase your products! Why would someone purchase one of Ketron's products if their fundamental questions about some of its "basic" functions of operation continually goes unanswered by the Company that produces that very product?? Just a thought....

All I can say is, if Ketron will NOT answer some of these very pressing and pertinent questions we put to forth to them, we ALL had better make very certain that the Audya comes with a 30 day money back guarantee on it. >> The place over in the UK that was selling a prototype Audya a few months ago was an "ALL SALES ARE FINAL" transaction with NO possibility of a return or refund. God help us if when the 'production' Audya goes on sale in January and Ketron stipulates that very same "tactic" (tactical error more like ) with each and every Audya it attempts to sell to the public. If they do, my guess is they'll sell VERY FEW of them if any at all. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img] I know I wouldn't buy it if they did something as dastardly as that. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/mad.gif[/img] Don't even think about it Ketron... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

Best, Mike

Thats not what buyers of multiplatnium loop based rap album after Rap album and HipHop groups that win Awards and out sell traditional bands year after year would indicate.

People would rather dance to a DJ spinning loop based music then a live band. The dearth of live bands making a living doing so is more than proof. There are far more OMBs ,Karaoke DJs and Dance DJS making their sole living in music venues.