I have been reading with great interest the threads about the Bose L1...

I have been looking at the system for some time now, but the cost has been a deterrent, but some are becoming available second-hand so I am revisiting the idea.

Trouble is the opinions or just general comment is so polarised it makes it very confusing.

Add to this I am over 600k away from the Bose dealer that Hellboy suggested (at least I think it was him!!), because they will send you a demo system, but in my case they won't because it's too far!!

I am currently using a pair of EV SX 300's running stereo through a Yamaha P3000s as tops and a big sub box driven by a P5000s in bridge.. (yeah I am a GREAT believer in "headroom" LOL)

Trouble is this system, especially the sub at 38kgs) is getting to be too awkward to fit in the old magna station wagon, especially with the size of the "new" keyboard.

I am looking for some advice/ non-polarised opinion or links to other sites on whether the L1 would be a suitable replacement and other related data/advice.

I play some originals, contemp country, CCR, JC, ND, most of the usual Oz pub rock songs (Hellboy would know what I mean) and a sprinkling of ballads. I use mainly smf's (tweaked like you wouldn't believe, I'm almost fanatical when it comes to smf's) and the occasional style, although with the new axe, I might be turning a lot of the smf's into styles .

So if anyone has suggestions/ideas (keep em clean ) I would appreciate it if you could respond.

Thanks
Dennis

Dennis for that kind of music stick with your system for sure.

I love my Bose...but I agree with Donny in your case.
Eddie

Eddie I agree there is a place for everything.....hope your doing well.

Dennis,

I haven't been to Oz for more than 40 years, and I'm sure things have changed dramatically from when I was a young man working in Woomera, SA. Back then the pub audiences consisted mainly of younger folks, most in their 20s and 30s. A 40-year-old was considered an old fart.

If this is still the basic audience makeup, I would stick with what you have. It's not that the Bose L1 couldn't handle it--IMO it can handle any pub job, anywhere in the world. Keep in mind, though, the younger audiences really don't give a damned what you play, just as long as it's very loud and distorted.

The L1 provides very crisp, clean, clear sounds, nothing is distorted, and the sound quality is superb. Taking an L1 into an Oz pub is like putting lipstick on your eyebrows--it just ain't smart. All you would need is one drunken 25-year-old to lean against the tower and it would be Game Over.

In contrast, I use my L1 for everything, including a couple Italian restaurants where I perform about 4 times a month. The audiences range from 50 to 75 years of age, then dance all night, and they rave about the L1's sound. The system is lightweight, goes together very quickly, and when properly set up, I don't think there is a conventional sound system that compares.

I'm not sure if the program exists in Oz, but if it does, Bose offers a 45-day trial period, with a no-questions-asked return policy and full refund. You may want to look into this.

Good Luck,

Gary

Thanks Donny and Eddie, yes I do suspect you are correct..

Its just I hear and read that much about these that I thought I would ask those who already know about them... I am happy with the current system, most of which is the remainder of the rather large band PA I used to run. But you know , anything that sounds good and is easier to lug .

Gary, where I am, over 40 is STILL considered old and I had a big LOL when I read... "Taking an L1 into an Oz pub is like putting lipstick on your eyebrows--it just ain't smart...." because around here that hit the nail on the head, but around Sydney Melbourne, Newcastle, Wollongong, you would probably be thought of as odd if you DIDN'T!!!

Seriously though, the point you make about one drunk bringing the entire system down is very true, and the L1 does "LOOK" relatively light, it may not be, but it looks it..Thanks for your thoughts, they are all appreciated.

The Bose people I spoke with didn't say anything about a 45 day try/return thing.. I think that is a system pretty much soley in the USA.
I would LOVE to try them though, as there is nothing like going all "touchy feely" with gear I reckon..Bets way to decide.

Dennis

Lipstick on the eyebrows is the LEAST of your worries in the land of "The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert"!

Not to mention that fixation with marsupial bondage...

hmmmm seems to me Diki has a fixation about pouches

In shear volume and thump the Bose won't come close to what you have, But if you want clarity at non ear splitting levels heard equally by everyone within 170 degrees of the pole, the Bose System is the ticket. If you need the kind of power you have the Bose system is not for you.

We replaced a Mackie 808s and two JBL MR15 (and associated cables and monitors) with it and can use it anywhere we used the Mackie/JBL system with better results and comments from the venues. The Bose won't push 40HZ through your chest like you find in sub bass hyped dance clubs.

Thanks KF...I guess in truth, I don't need the amount of available power I have, but as I said, I have ALWAYS been a believer in available headroom and not running a system to it's max.

From all I have been able to deduce these systems do sound excellent and are a lot easier to both transport and set-up/knock-down.

Can you let me know how you think they sound using your T3 for example? Point of the question being when using styles/smf's do they sound more like a home stereo system (in mono of course) or do they really "cut-it" as a viable PA?

More for ambient "cafe" style music or solid R+R/Pop?

I know they're difficult questions, (like how long is a piece of string!!) but with you experience I think you will know where I am coming from with it.

Thanks
Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-04-2008).]

Dennis,

The L1 has a lot more power than most systems. The tower is 500-watts RMS, 1,000-watts peak power, while the sub is 250-watts RMS and 500-watts peak. The total is 750-watts RMS and 1,500-watts peak power. That's one hell of a lot of wattage coming out of a total of 25 speakers (24 tower--1 sub).

IMHO, most of the folks that say the L1 does not have enough volume have never used the system. Or, they are so accustomed to having their heads blown off by conventional systems that they are unaware the falloff from conventional systems is much greater than the falloff of a vertical array system.

I realize that 600 Km to the nearest Bose dealer is a long drive to hear a sound system, but if I were in your shoes I would make the trip. However, in order to make the trip bountiful it's imperative to bring your equipment with you. Set it up just the same as you would set it up on the job, then set the Bose EQs exactly the way it is described in the instruction manual. I cannot emphasize the importance of this. There are a number of individuals that have purchased the L1 and said they could not get the same sound out of their system that I get from mine. Then when questioned about how they set it up, they said they just plugged in their keyboard and turned up the volume. There is a lot more to the setup than turning on the keyboard and turning up the volume. When set up properly the L1 and the Model 2 can do things no conventional sound system can accomplish.

The final part of the L1 question should be "Will I sound that much better, and will it make me more money?" Only you can answer this question.

Good luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary

Hello,
My two cents; with all due respect to Kingforg, I've used the system in large outdoor venues with 2 subs and I can say it certainly had the 'thump' that my old Mackie rig had. With proper EQ it is possible.
Ciao,
Jerry

I don't know why really, but just today I set up the Bose L1 in the driveway, and also two Barbetta 31c powered speakers. I thought maybe I didn't remember correctly or was missing something. No, the Bose totally blew the stereo Barbettas away.
I've used it on tiny jobs and huge, outdoor jobs, and it has never failed to impress everyone who heard them. I know of half a dozen musicians who bought the system after hearing mine. The latest was just this week, when a friend who has a 10-piece show band bought two of themm, with four subs, for their system.
Still, as mentioned, I'm sure they are not for everyone. Still the only criticisms I hear are from those that don't own them.
One of these days I'm going to hook up BOTH my L1 systems together just to hear what that would sound like. Maybe I'll do that at the January Shreveport Jam.
DonM

Garry, Jerry and Don...Thanks heaps for that data and your experiences..Makes a big difference..

Wow Gary, I didn't realise they had that much grunt!! Cool.

The other problem I forgot to mention (well not REALLY a problem) is in some of the smaller venues I do, especially the piano bar type one, I have to set up just the two EV's, and whilst they are excellent, and I can compensate somewhat with the Yamaha dynamics control on the amp, I do lose bottom end clarity.

These L1's might be a great compromise system, and I will go further and say that from what you guys are saying, it would be more than a compromise, it would be a huge improvement.

I might give the Bose people a ring again, and see if we can work something out..

Again, my many thanks for your valuable thoughts guys.. Big thumbs up.

Dennis

Well, DUH!

Why would you buy one if you have a criticism of it?!

That doesn't mean that some haven't tried them, heard others use them, and made sure they were set up correctly, etc.. And decided they did not like them.

I only saw this thread today (coming home after 6 gigs in 6 days) so my apologies Dennis.

I'm going to be as detailed as I can, not because I think my opinions in general are more valid than anyone else's on these boards, but because we play (as a duo Keyboards/Electric Guitar) in ALL types of venues with the Bose **in Australia** including Pubs/Hotel/Club situations, AND we play (at times) **almost IDENTICAL setlists to Dennis**.

So this is one of the few times (maybe the only time? ) I think my opinion is more relevant than most other people's - ONLY IN THIS PARTICULAR THREAD - so you can all go back to ignoring my comments/advice in every OTHER thread.....I would!


Now Dennis,

THURSDAY:
We played a local pub here, very close to where we live. We have standing requests there for "Copperhead Road", and "It's a Long Way to the Top" (AC/DC) - Fairly Hard Rock imo, and we do authentic, loud, "full on" versions.

FRIDAY: A large-ish Leagues Club on the Gold Coast, (Halloween) where people were on the Dancefloor from start to finish. Age range - 5 years old (cute kids), teens-20's (girls/guys wanting Top40), 40's-50's (wanting Pubb-ish rock) to people in their 70's (slow dancing couples). So the setlist there was CCR (Bad Moon, Proud Mary) RnR (Great Balls of Fire, Shake Rattle & Roll), Top40 (I'm Yours, I Kissed a Girl, Sweet About Me), Ballads (When You say Nothing at All, Crazy), Country (Chatahoochie, Boot Scootin' Boogie)

SATURDAY: Small Sports Club where the stage is setup DIRECTLY across from the bar - VERY bad setup.

SUNDAY: A suburban RSL Club, conservative tastes.

TUESDAY: Melbourne Cup(!) A very large Historic venue in the CBD

TUESDAY (2nd Melbourne Cup gig) same Pub as mentioned earlier for Thursday.


The Bose covered all these gigs without missing a beat technically.

What you WILL find regarding problems is the following:

On our Saturday gig (with the bad bar setup) we were forced to turn down to very low levels early in the night because the Bar staff (apparently) couldn't hear people's orders - the Bar was maybe 25 feet from our speakers.

So ISSUE #1

When you start up at a gig initially with the Bose, you may be asked to turn down straight away.

This is an issue I've thought about a lot when we first got the system, and have had many discussions with audiences (People seeing us for the first time, Venue Staff, Friends, "Fans" (i.e. people who have seen us with the Bose in many different venues), Musicians and Non-Musicians.

My Conclusion: Many people are simply not used to the CLARITY of the Bose. They assume that because they can hear everything so plainly, from vocals on down (including breathing, slight vocal noises etc) that the PA must be VERY loud.

It is not.

It is just very... well... clear.

***Outcome*** Later on in the evening at that same club, we turned up and nobody seemed to mind - they had "adjusted to the sound".

(Same Issue)
At the 1st Melbourne Cup gig (large CBD venue) we had an unfortunate situation of being placed far away from their wonderful dancefloor and in the middle of the audience (seated diners) with the Bose tower and stacked Subs literally 3-4 feet(!) from one table.
We had to reach a HUGE spread (a full 180 degree of patrons spread out over a 35 metre (or more) area with (well over 150 people). Initially we got a complaint from the lady seated nearest to the Bose (understandably enough) and we did our utmost to turn down yet still reach EVERYONE - which, according to many audience members, we did!

***Outcome*** Once a few drinks were had and the race was done, we "officially partied" and turned up to more than 3 times our dinner Volume. The people danced wherever they could find room (right off to our extreme left side mostly where there was a mere "patch" of Dancefloor) and the "badly placed table diners" stayed and clapped/sang along with a 30 people strong Conga line erupting at the end (song: HOT HOT HOT).

(This is a venue we have been trying to "get into" for quite some time, and we have now been invited back (thanks to the overwhelming response of the audience).

TUESDAY (2nd gig) Same Hotel/Pub as Thursday, playing 6pm-9.30pm, so we were asked to keep it down because of dinner service times (6.00-8.30) we played at a great volume for us (loud enough to be "comfortable") with people dancing from the very first song, and no bar problems (this bar is much CLOSER to the stage then that other sports Club Bar) and after 8.30 we turned right up as the Patrons (some very drunk and in party mode) danced along to everything from "Ring of Fire" to "Bust a Move" (80's rap classic) and the Black Eyed Peas (Pump it & Let's get it Started - Rap/RnB/Pop) and more Hard Rock, Alternate ("Zebra" - John Butler Trio - Dennis knows), Ben Harper etc etc etc etc etc

This is probably my longest post - my apologies, I try to keep things much shorter these days so as not to bore people, and to be a better post writer - I really DO believe less is more - but I had to give everyone, particularly Dennis a peek into just what we (and more importantly the Bose) covers.


Lastly, nobody has ever ---- E V E R ---- come up to us and said ANYTHING derogatory about our sound "punchy wise" or "Hard Rock Wise" or "Top 40 wise" if you all see what I'm getting at.

They have been drop dead amazed though...

Allow me to cut n paste from another thread directly related to this discussion (this occurred at that conservative RSL we played on SUNDAY mentioned above)


"A young guy came up to me at a gig last Sunday (yesterday Oz time) at a club that is very conservative in it's tastes music wise.

I thought, "oh no, this alternate looking dude is going to blast me for playing Brown Eyed Girl etc".

Turns out he was a part time DJ (and full time Teacher) who was drop dead amazed at the sound that was coming out of my Model 2 L1 (2 Bass Modules and a Tonematch) - he asked where you can buy it, how much was it yada yada. He is a mobile DJ who plays weddings, High School Dances and the rest.

He just bought a Roland Board (that new Juno re-issue (?) circa 2006) and was seriously considering adding samples and full dance mixes to his DJ set.

He was a nice guy, and I got him a job at that same gig when another audience member approached us for a Party Boat scenario (we were booked - so I passed it on to him).

He said goodbye after a couple of sets with a big smile (for the Job) and shaking his head (at the Bose) and the last thing he literally said to me was basically how if he sold his current rig (including some giant JBL 18" sub and two top speakers) he could afford the Bose....

I wish him well."


So Dennis,unless things are RADICALLY different interstate at the venues you play, you will NOT have a problem sounding "credible" enough in pubs/Hotels/Clubs with the Setlist you describe.

Thanks for reading, again sorry for the long post.

Just spoke with the sound guy at the music store I deal with, and he reckoned they have sold eight systems only in the l;ast three years.

He also said the users, and people who had demo'd it said they had big problems with feedbakc because of the 130 degree dispersion, and had to stand several feet away from teh tower to avoid feedback.

What has the experience of users here been when it coems to feedback? Remember I DO need to crank this system from time to time, you know, dial to number 8...
Thanks.
Dennis

PS: btw the system I am looking at is s/h for $2500AUD (about 1300 US) and includes a second sub amp.

Hellboy..thankyou, thankyou, thankyou....exactly the extra info I was after..It REALLY does help and takes most of the worry away..

If you are still online, can you advise on the so called "feedback issues" the sound guy at the store mentioned?

Although as Bose handle all distribution directly and the store ONLY gets a small commission on a sale, I suspect he may have ulterior motives for denigrating the Bose system.

Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-04-2008).]

Well yeah, that reminds me about something else important: feedback & PA placement.

So here's the deal.

Bose "officially" recommend placing the L1 about 6-8 feet (optimally) BEHIND you, so you can hear what the audience hears - fair enough - well I don't know about you, but many of the places we play, the stage is NOT deep enough for that (some are, and sound is DIVINE there for us)

BUT

many stages simply don't accommodate this. Incidentally we don't have too much feedback problems with the Model 2 (it has a wider dispersion, articulated drivers, and is even MORE resistant to feedback than the Model 1) we have had problems if we're too close to the system (around 5 feet or less) and too loud - feedback problems DO EXIST with the Bose, probably less than with conventional systems but they do happen. I suspect what that guy was telling you was a mixture of the truth and maybe also trying to steer you away to more "profitable" systems - dunno...

So where does this leave us?

Well we just set up the L1 wherever we can.
We have it:

a) Slightly in front, in between us on stage.
b) Off to one side, anywhere from 3 feet to 10 feet offstage, (behind, in line, or in front of us).
c) Behind us (as recommended) from 4-5 feet (not too good) to 7-9 feet (great).

The good news is, wherever we put it, we hear everything (especially vocals) quite clearly!

The Bad news (kinda) is that when you put it behind YOU, it is indeed optimal as you hear almost EXACTLY what the audience hears. When YOU are Behind the L1, the sound is still good (no monitors needed believe me) but things, naturally enough, are not quite as the audience hears, but I'm really only reminded of that when we play those stages that allow us to do the "official placement" thing.

Is that clear enough?


[This message has been edited by hellboy44 (edited 11-04-2008).]

(Cheers BBBB )

I just remembered one other thing re "trialling".

In Australia Bose does not have the 45 day trial (at least not when we bought it about 6-8 months ago now) but the store we bought it from had a loaner/demo model. We grabbed that for 1 week, setting it up at home in the lounge (something I recommend) to learn the system. Then we played 3 gigs with it oif I recall, at pretty different venues. By the third gig we knew it was a keeper.

That sounds like a sensational price btw - but what exactly are you getting?

We got a Model 2, a T1 (Bose mixing desk) and 2 B1 (bass modules) for approx $4990 (Aus)

Hi Hellboy,
yes m8, crystal..I too play on stages that would barely hold a guitar stand let alone one or two people LOL, so I hear what you are saying!!.

Thats the info I need on feedback..It was, strangely enough pretty the same thing the sound guy said, but the way he said it made the Bose out to be crap because it did it.. And I DO think he was steering to other products where they get a "mark-up" and not just a "tiny", his words, commission only.

I am getting more and more drawn to this system, and the simple elegance and ease of use appeals as well. I always liked the sound of the 802 systems, so the Bose PA sound is not a problem.

With a 20kg keyboard to lug now, I want the other gear to be as small as possible.

Thank you also to BBBB for your corroboration of Hellboy's comments, I really appreciate it.

Also a BIG thanks to everyone who took the time to post an opinion or some factual data, it has all helped greatly.

Cheers
Dennis

Hellboy, the system is an L1 with two sub boxes.

Dennis

Donny you are a gentleman..thank you very much for that link.

Dennis

lots of good info there for sure.

Dennis,

In nearly three years of using the L1 I have never had a feedback problem. I believe the reason behind this is first and foremost the type of mic I'm using. I currently use a Crown CM-311A headset mic, which during most jobs is just four-feet to my right and slightly behind me. Previous to using the CM-311A I used a Samson Q7, which is an outstanding handheld mic. I have also used it with the Countryman headset mics, and because of their unidirectional pattern they did produce feedback. I also had a problem with the SM58, but it was not as noticeable. Most super-cardiod and hyper-cardiod mics seem to work just fine. Unidirectional mics, even when used with conventional systems, seem to encounter feedback problems.

Good Luck,

Gary

L1 really is the "new" name of the PAS (not referred to as the PAS anymore) so are you getting/looking at the Model 1 or Model 2?

Model 1 has a heavier & bigger Base on it, and a narrower (for a Bose) field of spread soundwise.
Model 2 has articulated drivers for a much wider spread of sound and has a lighter more compact, foldable Base.

They tell me it's a Series 1, so I guess that means Model1 as well?

Dennis

Jerry claims he gets the "chest Thump" with two of the Bass modules. I don't see the system delivering anywhere near what 600 watts each into a pair of 18" Yamaha Subs.

The Tyros sounds like a very Loud and quality HiFi System. Stereo is not an issue, The benifits of the system inclusing the sound, transport, and set up far outweigh the lack of stereo in the venue. No one has asked my wife who primarily uses the system why the sound is not in "stereo". People are actually surprised at how good and even it sounds no matter where they are sitting or moving in the room.

I don;t expect a stereo mix when I see a live band in a big venue, In fact I would hate it if I was not sitting in an area of equal distance to both sides.

The Bose System in my opinion is more than adequate as a viable PA System in fact it sounds better than many conventional systems in clarity and especially in consistency throughout the venue.

Read the Bose forums. You will read many examples of those systems being used in large venues, outdoors and by individual band members. They get scooped up quickly ion Ebay for not very much off list price therefore you really don;t have but maybe $700 invested in a $3000 system. The rest you can get back easily if you wanted to sell the system. Can't say the same for a conventional system that is much more difficult to sell.

They can be used for both Ambient sound and Rock/Pop. We have never turned the system up past 50% indoors or out. Bose USA offers a generous 45 days to decide to keep it.

That says a lot about what Bose thinks your decision will be.

Bottom line. Very few are disappointed. Those who are may not know how to properly set the system up using the Tone Match. Others are stuck in "Stereo." I would buy another if I though it would make that much difference to have a stereo mix. Two systems don't take up much more room in the back seat than one....But it really won;t make much difference and would be a waste of money. One system is enough for any venue a Single or Duo would ever need. Unless they are Simon and Garfunkle.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-04-2008).]

Thanks KF good stuff!!

Just further info I have found out..the one I am looking at is tagged the "Classic" by Bose, so maybe the $'s are a bit high?...for the US guys the asking price is about $1400 USD..

Does anyone have an idea of what the "Classic" model should go for s/h?

According to teh Bose site, they have the Classic, the L1 and then the L1 mark II.

Dennis

I have decided NOT to buy this Bose L1 (actually more correctly called the PAS,the name didn't change until the second model), simply because I have found I can add just $400 and get a brand new system instead.

I am now convinced, from all your helpful replies, and my own investigations, that I want to try this amazing PA system, I will just have to wait a bit longer.

Dennis



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-05-2008).]

I wish I was in Oz so I could hear you play the L1 for the first time. I'm confident you'll love what you hear.

Good Luck,

Gary

Just discovered something a bit disconcerting..I tried running my existing PA in mono (with the G70 also just sending form the L(mono) jack and using a mono input on the desk), just to get an idea of how the Bose will sound (I believe they are mono), and a lot of the "liveness" of the sound seems to to disappear??

Can I ask how do current users of the Bose system find running in mono, or does the Bose sound that good that it doesn't really matter much?

Dennis

PS: this is not trying to incite stereo-v-mono debate, just want to know what current users think.

I run my G70 to the PAS from the mono out and it sounds great. I wondered, also, what I was missing by using mono, so I played a gig in a small room using twin CM-30's. I much preferred the PAS mono.

Bernie

Dennis,

I run the PSR-3000s left channel into the L1s channel 1 and the 3000s right channel into the L1s channel 2. This seems to produce a fuller sound, at least to my ears, when the two channels are combined within the L1. I believe much of this is due to Yamaha's pseudo mono output, which is not really a true combination of both audio output channels.

As I've stated many times in the past, the audience really doesn't know or care whether you are playing in mono or stereo--they just want to be entertained.

Good Luck,

Gary

Thanks Bernie and BBBB, (and Gary, sorry I missed yours, we must have been posting at the same time ) good to have that feedback.

I may even go back to looking at the s/h L1 as it DOES have twin subs, so on balance it is probably a good deal.

Cheers
Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-10-2008).]

Pseudo-Mono?

Any empirical testing done to confirm that, or is it anecdotal?

Should be easy with a DAW. Record a short piano piece in the sequencer, then record the audio in the DAW in stereo. Record same SMF again in mono (from the mono out of the arranger)... Convert the stereo recording in the DAW to mono... Compare.

Normalize BOTH tracks to ensure identical levels. That ought to make it apples to apples. It'll be interesting to hear the results (hint, hint!)...

Dennis it's ultimately up to you, but if it was me, I'd be going for the Model II (with twin subs) as the sound dispersal - thanks to the articulated drivers - is indeed "superior" to the older models.

This is usually described as Model I having a narrower beam of sound and "hot spots" in the room sound-wise (more like a conventional PA). So simply, if you A/B the 2 systems, apparently it's like this:

Model I - Close your eyes & you can tell where the L1 is placed in the room.
Model II - Close your eyes & you cannot easily tell where the L1 is in the room, and there are no Hotspots as the music is all around you (like Love )

Just btw, we had an early gig Last Sunday and ended up in a large Club we play at often, and to our surprise the Act (Duo - 2 Guitars/Vocals/Sequencing) were using a Model I Bose (!) So for the first time we were able to sit down and watch a "Bose-Band" that wasn't us!
I found the sound to still be amazingly clear and the bottom end was great, & they only had one sub!! (it was a Country act, so they didn't need much) but still the warmth and the clarity were knockout.

The issue of the PA being Mono is non-existent for me (and certainly for all the Audiences we've played to so far!) but there HAVE been phasing issues with Yamaha Keyboards - well documented - because of the way Yamaha outputs to Mono, the actual "mono samples" are also part of the problem I believe. (You have a Roland do you not? if so, I would confidently ignore the Mono/Stereo output issue).

Also, I and many others feel running a conventional system in Mono to see how it might sound from an "L1 perspective" is comparing Apples and Oranges.
Regarding my cut n paste story above of that young DJ listening to us - I should mention he was amazed that the Bose was a Mono PA - he saw only one cable coming out of my keyboard and thought "hang on it MUST be mono" but he still couldn't "make the connection" if you know what I mean - it didn't sound like a "normal" mono PA to him. I guess it's the clarity and "sound from all around" kind of effect that the L1 (especially Model II) has that makes the whole mix sound quite "alive", to the point where Stereo/Mono is just simply a non-issue.

Thanks Hellboy...

I think that would have to be the way to go..The new system with an extra sub..I was told the extra sub is only about $500 more, but worth more than that in real-terms (ie using it)..

Dennis

Yes, it's interesting to note (if you wanted to know - and I suspect you do) that the extra Sub doesn't change the overall sound of the L1 and make it too Bass heavy.

To explain - the extra sub gives you more headroom, but no matter how many subs you attach to a system (say 1, 2 or even 4 with the extra Paclite Amp) the system "self EQs" to be foolproof and maintain a consistency of sound (maintaining a stable Bass-to-treble ratio). At first I didn't really like this idea as I felt it takes the "choices" away from me, but then I realised two things.

1. I am a fool, so being foolproof is not a bad thing, or to be more serious, it's hard to get a Bad sound from whatever number of B1s you have.

2. You still have complete EQ control over the system via your Mixing desk (through The T1 or other mixer) so you really CAN "mess up" the sound as much as you want.

Anyway I probably didn't explain that very well so here's a more useful cut n paste from Bose's online Forum regarding the Auto EQ feature:

" This is based on the design goal that 'You should always sound the same; no matter how much Bass stuff is attached' "

or to go further:

"What this complex behavior does is the following. No matter if you attach 1, 2, or 4 B1s, you will get pretty much the same balance between all combined B1s and the L1s. It’s a little off for 3, 5, 6, 7 & 8 B1s, but still reasonably close.

It’s true that the user doesn’t have to re-EQ our systems if you add more B1s or even a PackLite with another pair of B1s. But that’s unique to our system, because we were actively measuring the number of B1s attached. So re-EQ is required, but the system is doing it by itself without any user involvement required. "

I find that reassuring and kind of cool - there's all sorts of smart Electronics/Processing going on behind the scenes with the L1........

Diki,

I'll be more than happy to email you the schematic of the 3000 and T1 which is where this information was derived from. All you'll have to do is look carefully at the schematic, paying particular attention to the audio output section of the circuitry. There is also a block diagram showing this on their repair CD.

Gary

Well I just bought the Bose L1 mark 1. The second hand one.
The owner convinced me it was in perfect condition, and as it came with a second sub speaker, the price was very good I thought. Approx $1200 USD.

I just couldn't justify the extra $'s for the mark II version, especially as new they are $3400 AUD and then a sub box is an extra $560 and then a further $700+ for the Tone Match box.

I think this system will do the job for me.
And I am REALLY looking forward to NOT having to carry 2 power amps two top boxes a 35 kilo sub, speaker stands, cabling, all the power points and power leads for all the above gear..etc etc LOL!!

Anyway, just wanted to let those who helped me with a lot of advice and thoughts know that their comments were not wasted

Thanks again to all.

Dennis

That's great Dennis.

Look, I have no real problem with you buying the Model 1, have at it!

(Does seem like a great price btw, and I forgot about the American vs Aussie dollar - sounds like you did a smart thing....)

Dennis,

The best advice I have is to be sure to follow the setup instructions on Gain Staging to the letter. You really found a great bargain and if it were available here I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat--just to have a spare.

Keep us posted,

Gary

Guys,

I used my Bose L1 model 1 as my christmas tree last year. Check out the picture on the link below.
http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/292105355/m/1961085234

coca

Just one other question if I may...

How many of you use a seperate mixer with the L1 system? Or do you just run direct into the Bose and then use the remote control?

Thanks
Dennis

Thanks Brian... I did seriously look at adding a tonematch to this system, but it would have required another "wall-wart" power supply (It is only on the system II that it can draw power interanlly).. And it was $740 extra(AUD)!!!.

And as that is the official and ONLY Bose price, from whatever dealer you talk to, it was too expensive.

I have been reading that the L1 has a gain system and I would only be using 2 channels, so I was hoping to get away with one bit less in gear.

Dennis

Hi Dennis
I use the Tonematch with my model 1 i I want a little reverb or compression with my vocals, and when I have other gear and players to accomodate. You do have better control with the Tonematch for separate EQ,reverb. Also, I find the "Scenes" handy as I have different setups for different venues. I can configure each in a scene and instantly change cofigurations.

Sometimes I get lazy and just use the remote when I have a small simple gig. Either way, I find my Model 1 all I ever need.

One other thing hit me when I reread your question about a separate mixer. You don't have to use a Tonematch mixer. You can run any mixer through the Bose, but you don't take advantage of the customized instrument settings(presets). I sometimes have my mic in ch1, keyboard in ch2, and my Mackie 1202, that I leave at one of my jobs, in ch3. I can have EQ,preset and volume on1 and 2, and master volume control on 3, with the rest controlled by the mixer.

Hi Bernie, and thanks for those tips...
I am using external controls for vocals (rev, comp, gate etc ) so perhaps I might get away with either my current mixer, or maybe even none at all...I agree the Tonematch is an excellent bit of gear, but the budget is stretched really thin now, so unless I can find one s/h it is not in the plans.

Dennis

Dennis,

You can run get all the vocal effects, as well as the keyboard effects, EQs, etc from the keyboard, then just fire it directly into the L1. I wish I were there to help you set up the system, but unfortunately, this is not in the cards at this time.

Good Luck,

Gary

Thanks Gary.

From your reply I deduce that this is in fact how you are using it, direct from the keyboard to the L1. And to be honest that was the way I had envisaged using it myself.

I just needed some confirmation from current users.

So that really answers the question, that it can be done successfully with the L1 system.

Good. One less bit of gear and associated cabling to take to a gig.

Cheers
Dennis

So many that don't like the system, even when they have tried it, are told that they didn't set it up right...

So maybe to help out those trying one out, Gary, do you have some quick Tips and Tricks to help anyone with only a cursory knowledge of the PAS (like a newbie) how to avoid the worst of these?

At least then those that don't like it will be able to say 'No, I tried your quick setup tips, and still didn't like it' or else 'Those tips made all the difference, now I LOVE it!'

Rather than getting accused after the fact that they can't possibly have it set up right, because they didn't like it!

Gain Staging is of paramount importance.
Run your Master volume at a decent output so you don't have to push your individual Channel Gains/Volumes.

I wish I had more detailed advice but I'm not familiar (enough) with the Model 1 to give you expert help.

I must say though, use the Bose forums - especially their "find" (search) function for any topic you need.

If you can't find help on THOSE forums for any problem you might have, there's something wrong...

That's the second person to mention the gain staging, so it's something I will pay close attention to, thanks Hellboy.

This really is a different beast to the "normal" PA setup. it's all rather exciting really.

And those Bose forums are great. It was because of the information I found there, and the great help from you guys that really made a difference in me deciding to go for this system.

Dennis

The best Gain Staging information is contained within the instruction manual. However, you can find some more details on the procedure Here .

In my setup I set the PSR-3000s master volume at approximately the 1-O'clock position, which seems to provide the best signal to noise ratio from the keyboard's outputs. Then by following the instructions in the manual I set up both the L1s left and right channels accordingly. When the indicator lights turn red, back off the L1's channel gains until they hold a steady green, then you are ready to go. At this point when increases in volume are needed the only gain control you will use is the master volume of the remote.

Keep in mind that this is NOT a conventional sound system. If it sounds a bit loud to you it will sound equally loud to the audience. The falloff is minimal throughout the venue, which is something to take into consideration when setting the master volume.

As for the presets, these will vary with each venue. For the most part, 05, 55 and 57 are pretty much standard for keyboard and vocals going through the keyboard's vocal processor. Of course, your keyboard's EQ settings and your onboard vocal processor EQs will have some bearing on the overall sound as well.

I try to be as efficient as possible when it comes to setups. I do not use a mixer and do not set up a guest mic unless it is requested in advance of the job. If I need a guest mic I fire it through a small mixer and into channel 4 of the L1. Channels 1 and 2 are strictly for the keyboard. Channel 3 is used for the audio output of the laptop for Mp3s which are used before I begin a performance and during short breaks on longer jobs.

I personally know a couple dozen individuals that have purchased the L1. Of them, only 2 have returned the system, and one of the 2 never set the system up using the gain staging technique outlined in the instruction manual. Some are OMB keyboard players and vocalists, while others are guitar players using either backing tracks or drum machines while singing. Nearly all said they would never go back a conventional sound system.

I have two backup systems here--the Logitech Z-5500 and a single Barbetta Sona 32C. The closest in sound quality to the L1 is the Logitech Z-5500. The Barbetta Sona 32C, which I previously owned before purchasing the L1, is an excellent, CONVENTIONAL, sound system. It is Bi-amped, 450-watts RMS and really packs a punch. However, IMO it does not provide the clarity and distinct individual sounds of the L1, and I have played using both extensively.

Hope this helps,

Gary

I do use an external mixer most of the time. I never know when I'll have guest singers or the occasional instrumentalist.
I have a little bitty Behringer, a big Behringer, a Peavey and a Yamaha. They all work fine with it.
I leave the Bose flat (setting 00) and do and e.q. ing from the mixer. Most of the time I run everything pretty flat. It doesn't need much e.q. help.
DonM

There are some jobs I play that are so small I will use a Roland KC350 amp/speaker. The Bose would be great for any job...but some of these 1-hr jobs are so small (and "budget conscious") it is just easier to plug in the KB and amp and leave all the other gear in the van.

For most jobs however, I run my keyboard, mic, MP3 player or laptop , my female singer's mic (when she is with me) into a mixer. The L/R output of the mixer goes into Channels 1 & 2 of the L1.

If the venue requests a mic for announcements, I will set one up and run it into channel 3 or 4. I don't use commercial CD's, but channels 3 & 4 are just fine for CD's because commercial CD's have already been tweaked in studio.

So, for channels 1 & 2, I, most often, use presets 12, 55 and 57 depending on the venue's acoustics...but DonM & Gary have me considering going flat 00 and adjusting any FX within the keyboard.

For the mics, I add needed reverb or other FX at the mixer. And the mixer has a "Talk" button, which was eliminated on the PSR 3K. THAT comes in real handy.

There are umpteen ways to do just about anything. I like to experiment, hear what other guys are doing, try it and then settle in on what seems to be most comfortable.

As for tips and info on how best to use the Bose L1, the site Gary posted and the user forum are a wealth of information.

Eddie

[This message has been edited by btweengigs (edited 11-21-2008).]

Just as an interesting Sidebar:

We've recently purchased a new vocal Mic for my wife (an AKG D7 - a close relative to the respected D5) and she's having trouble adjusting, too explain -

She previously had an SM-58, which of course either eveyrone has, or has used one at LEAST once, but it's just not cutting the Mustard anymore, too boomy, lacking in clarity, and, let's face it, is (essentially) 30 year old technology, and compared to the quality and detail of the D7 - a Dynamic mic that has more of a Condenser mic quality - it's like singing through a boomy sock when it's all said and done...

So what's my point?

Well I don't know if it's been said before (hell, maybe I've mentioned it in this very thread) but one other thing about the Bose: it is a fairly transparent PA, and doesn't really do much to colour the sound, so you will hear with much more clarity (a) your voice (b) your playing (c) the general sound quality of your equipment, so please be prepared for that Dennis. Some people would hear themselves and not really like what they hear (hell, I'm one of them) and if a singer the caliber of my Wife feels a little uncomfortable with the jump in clarity - particularly with the AKG mic, (you'll just have to take my word for now that she's a decidedly above average vocalist) then it's something for all of us with a Bose (ME in particular!) to consider - this system keeps you on your Vocal and Musical toes, and some people may not like how they *really* sound...

(Please take this post in the spirit in which it is intended, I'm probably a very average vocalist and player compared to some on this board....)

Gary, Eddie, Hellboy, Don, Bernie and others...GREAT stuff guys..Excellent advice, tips and you can believe I am noting EVERYTHING that is being said here.

Much appreciated,

Dennis

The tone match mixer has an aux out that is fantastic for feeding an additional sub for those of you that miss that thump. I've tried it at home, and it works great but i have NEVR needed it at work...weddings, school parties, outdoor picnics for 400+ etc .... I just donlt play for that type of crowd. If you need more ooomph ... get a small sub and use the aux outs....you'll keep the simplicity, the clarity and you'll add the thump.