Since many have requested what exactly goes on when the Fill In on the Korg Pa series is pressed at the 'wrong time' (up-beat or about 0.75 secs. after the down beat), I decided to show some examples for you to hear for yourself.

The files are labeled accordingly with the style name taken from the Pa2XPro. So far (when going through the list), over 40 styles have this problem (testing not completed yet so there could be more), but I decided to show about 6 for now.


* xxx-GOOD.mp3 - The fill in was pressed on the DOWN BEAT (at the right time).

* xxx-BAD.mp3 - The fill in or break was pressed on the UP BEAT (slightly after the down beat was heard). What you hear is actually what appears to be a 'Midi delay/retrigger' when the fill or break is pressed and not an actual Volume/Effects change (correction from my previous post).

Some may not agree, but the files labeled with xxx-BAD.mp3 should NOT be allowed regardless of Fill setting(Fill=Immediate or Fill=Delayed) or regardless of when the Fill in or Break button is pressed - especially for a machine being used live - just my opinion. This was not an issue with the i-series I believe.

Thanks,

AJ

Here is the link:- http://www.mediafire.com/folder/8e7bfaeb848250d1ab1eab3e9fa335caded6180a1493ad49

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-07-2008).]

The Mediafire site doesn't play well with my Mac, just hangs on 'Loading files'.

Any chance of MP3-ing these, and putting them up at Korgforums, or somewhere like that? If they are small-ish (timing issues will be as easily heard with an mp3 as a .wav), roland-arranger.com would be OK, too...

It LONG past time this was quantified and acknowledged, and even fixed...

Diki,

Check your mail....

AJ.,
Thanks for explaining with an example...

Now I will explain a little more of the flexibility and solution if you want it to work differently.
And as AJ said only some styles have any issue with partial fills.

The styles you used as an example in fact do work that way and there is probably others. I change them if I want to as I run into them...some I leave alone. It depends on the style and how the fill sounds...sometime I like to fill ANYTIME, others don't always sound good at just any beat so I change them.

I actaully just timed it...it takes about 6 seconds to do it and it is very simple.

1) Be sure in media mode that factory styles is UNLOCKED...that way you can change them. YES, all factory styles can be changes anytime you want, then re-saved to the original or a new one...nice feaure!

2) Select the style you want to change.
3) Press Record and select change current style
4) When the scren pops up select the Cue Tab at the bottem.
5) Select fill 2 or fill 2 as the CV
6) Change the Cue mode to NEXT MEASURE, FIRST MEASURE
7) Press Top corner for the write pulldown menu and select write style, press OK.
8) Exit from record mode.

All done..now the fills will not come in on the third beat...which is waht causes the issue AJ pointed out.

It is really neat as you can press fill 1 or 2 at either the first beat OR second and get a fill...(that sounds fine) but if you press it on the 3rd or 4th it will wait until the next measure to start the fill.

So, you can have it anyway you want BY STYLE, Immediate (where it sounds OK to you) or like Yamaha on the first beat of next measure.

Lee

I found the old i series extremely poor in comparison to the new 800. I always loved the i series sounds and styles, but could never tolerate the terrible glitches.

I think each board may have its own character, because some of the competitive (current) brands on the market that I tried were absolutely terrible when it came to style glitches.

I'd say Yamaha is the smoothest, followed by Korg...the rest - way behind.

Incredible! How can Korg allow this to happen year after year after year on their arranger products??... Until they do something about it I will NOT be getting any of their arranger gear - EVER! What an embarrassment a person could make of themselves on stage and this type of glitch occurs!

No thanks Korg. Fix it! Then we'll talk.. maybe.

Best,
Mike

I actually find the timing of this thread from AJ rather interesting, especially as its highlighting a quirk of a keyboard to other arranger players (looking at possible future Audya sales perhaps???)

Nothing like trying to highlight failings of one keyboard when you are about to launch your own

Or am I just being too cynical?

Dennis

PS: And I think the "As many have requested......", should be more like "As a few have commented on..." to be totally fair.

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-07-2008).]

leeboy just posted a very simple and quick way to edit the fill so that it is smooth (if that fill is not already smooth). Why would anyone go on stage without rehearsing the songs they are going to play ? the fills will not come in unexpectedly if you know they styles that you commonly use. This should not be a deal breaker unless the keyboard simply is not your cup of tea. And thats cool , there are plenty of other keyboards out there. I bought my Pa1x second hand so someone must have already done this to my board which is why i have never had any timing issues. This was a useful post from AJ and i dont think it was done to boost sales of the Audya as this instrument does not look like it is anywhere near being launched in the immediate future.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 11-07-2008).]

leeboy's solution does provide a temporal fix, because, with this option activated, you now cannot have the fill on the 3rd or 4th bar of the measure (as can be done on the other manufacturer's keyboard) since the Pa now waits until the next measure to activate the fill.

Also, this solution above doesn't prevent the 'midi glitch' from occuring when the fill/break is pressed on the 1st or 2nd bar of the measure ... it only prevents the fill from coming in on the 3rd or 4th.

On the Yamaha or Ketron arrangers, depending on when you press a fill/break (within a measure), it is activated on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th bar (for a 4/4 style let's say). Depending on how far into the measure you press the fill, the unit actually plays some of the variation it's coming from and some of the fill that was requested. The complete fill is only played if the fill-in button is pressed on the first bar of the measure. So, if a fill/break is pressed 2 bars into a measure, they play only the last 2 bars of the fill - they don't try and play the fill from the first fill bar

REAL SOLUTION (Mine that is).
The following suggestion assumes a 4/4 style.
* Have markers within the fill (e.g for a one measure fill, have 16 markers.
* Depending on when the fill is pressed, play fill only from the next marked point 'till end (this eliminates the midi hanging notes generated by pressing the fill between marker points).
* Until that marker point is reached, continue playing the current variation.

Just my suggested fix.

Thanks

AJ

PS: If anyone needs the C++ programming codes for this, I'd be willing to supply them.

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-08-2008).]

This is the kind of response that bothers me Bad press and gossip do undeserving harm to a product that is absolutely the BEST keyboard on the market. Anyone can glitch a style if tried hard enough. Even with Yamaha and as smooth as they are, I had styles I just couldn't work with. I won't bad mouth other products here, but if you haven't had the joy of playing an 800/2X, then you've really missed out - it is an incredible tool for live and studio work. I'm glad I'm the only one in my area that uses it. Believe me, the audience simply raves about this board and I have more work from my current act then I did with my last setup. It's the total package that counts....

I agree with you Zuki, every keyboard has its faults...

The PA 800 is not really a brand new keyboard. i love how all this started from me posting about buying one! hehehe

i cant wait to own a korg. I have ordered it, so i should be able to pick it up by Tuesaday this comming week! i cant wait!!!!!

Nick

After hearing this a "Million" times let me say this. Given the excellent styles in the PA2x (not the 1 bar boring styles I have experienced on the other arrangers ... and yes I OWNED them all!) I find this "So Called Glitch" not an issue at all!!! I find that with the more "Interesting" styles I use the fill in option far less! When I do ... my mind has been trained to utilize at the the top of the bar or middle (1/4 time sig of course)and this is a NONE ISSUE!!
By the way when someone finds the PERFECT ARRANGER please Email me immediately!!!!!!!!!!!!


[This message has been edited by JCkeeys (edited 11-08-2008).]

Originally posted by JCkeeys:



You may have to wait a while for that Email..

If there is indeed a "workable" 'onboard' solution to the Korg arranger fill-in issue then I take back my words of not 'ever' getting one. But is the onboard fix a time consuming and difficult task to implement? It has to be done to each and every Style correct? So you have to do some sort of "editing" to 300 or more Styles, right? Or is this just some sort of "setting" in the OS Menu that will take care of the problem "globally". And is it really 100% "effective" 100 percent of the time??

Both Yamaha and it seems Ketron as well have gotten this all sorted out long ago (if there ever WAS an issue with them before at all). I am use to Yamaha arrangers. I NEVER had a problem with Yamaha's fill-in feature.

Best,
Mike

This glitch couldn't be more evident than the demos...

This has got to be fixed...Hopefully it is fixable and nothing to do with a slow processor...

Although this isn't the reason I do not care for the PA800...it adds to reason list...

Come on PA800 owners..surely it has to bug you....even a little bit..

If owners don't complain...it won't be fixed...if it can be fixed...

How could this response bother you, what should be bothering is that korg has released all of these boards (PA80, PA60, PA50, PA1x, PA1xpro, Pa2x, Pa800, pa500)and they haven't fixed the problem. No one is trying to harm the beloved Korg, There just pointing out a flaw and others people like AJ are helping to correct it, since korg has failed to do it.

Also I own a PA80 couldn't stand when the fill-in came in off beat and I tell you I was happy to get rid of the board because it was embarrassing when that happened.

As far as the "best" everyone has there opinion.

Good luck.....




[This message has been edited by mc (edited 11-08-2008).]

I agree it should be fixed. Just saying it is not a "Show Stopper" for me.
Not having a Break Fill on the G70 was a show stopper for me!!One of the major reasons I sold it. My point .... Everyone has their "I can't live with it" item.
Sooner or later you have to come to grips with what you "Have to have" and START PLAYING and MAKING $$$$$$$!!!!

No wonder Korg show no interest in fixing this...

All their users are tap-dancing around desperately to trivialize or outright deny it even exists. Why should Korg bother with something none of their users seem to care about..?

Obviously, those users MUST not worry too much about timing and strange jumps, because they decided to buy it anyway! Of course, perhaps Korg might consider all the owners of other arrangers that PERHAPS have decided against Korg because of this one issue...

And zuki and NickG, take a chill pill! All we are talking about is this ONE issue... it has nothing to do with all the other GOOD points that make the arranger into the one you love above all. But, just as you MIGHT have decided against other arrangers on an operational point that IT'S owners aren't too worried about, it doesn't mean YOUR concerns were of any less value, does it?

The option to HAVE to trigger ALL fills in advance is completely unacceptable. REALLY! Who amongst us triggers the fills by ANY other way than calling them EXACTLY when you want them? To HAVE to completely change how you have been using an arranger for decades, to avoid a glitch like this is not a solution... it's a tiny band-aid on a gaping wound!

And, to be honest, I STILL feel this issue is mostly related to the lack of fills. Roland's, Yamaha's, Ketron's, just about ALL arrangers would have this issue to a certain extent if they only had two fills to make twelve possible variation changes (not counting fill-to-same).

A busy variation needs a fill that is busy at the start, to transition well into it... use that same fill on a MUCH less busy, loud, frenetic variation, and as soon as you jump into it, you WILL get an anomaly no matter WHAT you use... There is just no way around this.

To be honest, I would prefer AJ's test to be more 'real world' and see what happens when you ask for the fill on the 2 or the 3, rather than just trying to be fractionally late on the 1, but I have a feeling it's about the same, maybe slightly less noticeable.

So, all in all, I'm not sure whether this is more a problem with the way that Korg actually MAKE styles (they certainly put in a lot of variation, very distinct variations from each other) and the problem with not enough fills to transition smoothly from these very disparate sections, or whether there IS an OS problem about sending all those different patch change, volume, effects, etc., in IMMEDIATE response to a call for a fill, where it might be better if it waits for the next whole beat....

But you can pretty much guarantee that Korg will continue to come out with OS after OS with no fix, because it's owners are more concerned with APPEARING to be better than other arrangers by denying any problem (now WELL explained and demonstrated - for shame none of you were willing to try this!) even exists, than actually demanding it's repair, and MAKING it into the 'perfect arranger' they merely CLAIM (in the face of evidence to the contrary).

That tactic is now working AGAINST you... Do you have the strength of will to change this knee-jerk reaction, and finally get around to demanding that YOUR manufacturer do something about this? Maybe some more of us would finally join you in arranger nirvana if you did (many are CERTAINLY not going to until they do). But continue to trivialize it, and the problem will remain.

Time will tell...

In the meantime, please, all you Korg users... hands up if ANY of you always cue your fills a bar in advance? Nope, didn't think so...

I'm curious about this issue. Not to tick off anyone or offend any member here, but what's the core of the fill problem with Korg? I always read (Yamaha and Roland) handle it better, but is it the fill that's off or the players timing?

Does Yamaha and Roland handle it better in terms of smoother transitions to account for any minor timing issues that player may have?

Again, not to tick anyone off, but this issue has come up a lot, and from what I've seen on the subject it would "appear"..., the Korg "might perhaps" require the user to have better timing where as the Yamaha or Roland will compensate for this (or am I wrong)??



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-08-2008).]

Timing of asking for the fill should have ZERO effect on the smoothness of transition.

You don't have this problem simply changing variations (or at least, shouldn't), no matter where in the bar. The arranger, should you ask for something fractionally late, should give it you on the next beat or sub-beat (8th note) in perfect time. The only exception to this is when you change chords during a longer note, and the arranger seamlessly bends the note to where it should be instantaneously (in case you are fractionally late with the chord change). But rhythmical accuracy should NEVER suffer.

Squeak's pretty much nailed it right there!
it is definitely a user timing error. Roland and yamaha have just made it more easier for the user not to screw up and sound bad.

That's what I was figuring Nick. It's such a sensitive subject with some though when you bring up the possibility that their own timing may be an issue. Plus those who have been playing Yamaha or Roland for years and used to these models.., may not really even know they have timing problems if these models in some way compensate for it by smoothing out the fills if you come in just a bit ahead of behind the beat.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-08-2008).]

Not true..On the Korg you can select whether you want to have the fill trigger on the next measure, OR immediately.

I suspect the programmers at Korg realise not everyone has perfect timing when it comes to pushing the fill button, so they give users the choice. Three in fact.

excerpt from the manual.....In brackets are my additions

"This setting is only available
for the Fill 1, 2, 3 Style Elements.

Immediate, first measure:
The Style Element enters immediately.(and begins from the first measure of the fill pattern.)

Immediate, current measure:
The Style Element enters immediately, and begins from the current measure. (IE, if the style is at measure 4, the fill pattern starts at measure 4 of the fill pattern, if available.)

Next measure, first measure:
The Style Element enters at the beginning of the next measure, and begins from the first measure. "


As I said I no longer own the PA1x, or PA2x, but I have to give credit where due.

And I NEVER had one timing issue with fills, only ones that I either deliberately tried to stuff-up, or where my timing on the button push was off.

Dennis

PS: I repeat, I have my doubts as to the "genuine" nature of this thread.. AJ has got what I think he intended to do, which was to start huge debate on a "perceived" fault of the Korg's not long before the release of the new Ketron.

Clever marketing strategy I would say.



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-08-2008).]

Knock, Knock...anyone listening out there...

I posted the solution. If you want to change that so called glitch (On some styles it works to be an advantage). I play this thing all the time and rarely have I even noticed this. If I do, I just PERMENTLY change it by overwriting the factory style.

just do it...it takes less than 6 seconds o do.

AJ...If I had Korgs OS source...I could change it myself too...mAybe it's C++ maybe not. I know about 12 launguages so hope it would be one of them? :-)Not sure I would though. After making the change on the styles you mentoned...I tried to make it sound bad on the fills...never did.

It is not a show stopper and most styles do not even exibit it.

I really think if Korg thought it was a bug it would have been fixed a long time ago. I think that's why you have an option in the style record to be able to change it to which ever way you want.

The Korg PA series speaks FLEXIBILITY...If you want to know what I mean actually download the manual, set back with a cold one and read it...you will be amazed! It's 329 pages not including the PC songbook editor or Advanced Edit which includes full funtion sampling.
But, It is not at all a difficult machine to operate...very easy.

Not perfect though...Me too looking for that e-mail when one comes out.

AJ is just trying to be helpful to us all, thanks AJ....besides before Audya ships we will have a T4 and a PA4XPO???
Lee

leeboy

When you make your suggested changes to the style and try to re-create the error, you can't. Why? Because the fill is now ONLY played at the begining of the next measure IF you press it after the 2nd bar of the current variation.

However, there are instances where you want the fill to start at the 3rd or 4th bar of the variation and with your fix, this is no longer possible. On the Yamaha and Ketron keyboards, it is without the glitch (and this is where the error lies).

This is why I was saying your fix is a temporal fix and not really a permanent one.

I am not sure what source codes Korg uses, but I know Yamaha and Ketron both use C++.

AJ

Exactly, AJ...

I'm sorry, guys, but like I said, just how many of you routinely trigger their fills in advance..? Personally, I've been playing arrangers for fifteen years or more (hard to remember exactly when!), but I have NEVER played an arranger that didn't trigger fills when you need them. Sometimes you want a fill to go the whole bar, sometimes you want it for only the last three beats, sometimes you want a two beat pick-up, sometimes, just the hint of a pickup and a crash... All of those options out of ONE fill, depending on when you hit it. And, of course, those options are multiplied by how many fills you arranger has.

But now, rather than bitch at Korg until the problem is solved as well as all their competitors have done, you want to suggest that, rather than trigger a fill when I want it, I now have to go against 15 years of practice, and think about triggering the fill even BEFORE I want one?

Just so it is as smooth as the arranger I already have (and which manufacturer has figured out smooth fills for generations prior to this model?)?

That is CRAZY!

That is not a MUSICAL solution to the problem. That is an ENGINEER'S solution to the problem. Sure, it works (as long as you are willing to give up 75% of the other ways of using the fill), but it isn't MUSICAL...

How easy is it going to be, trying to remember which styles you can safely hit the fill when you want it, and which ones are going to be needed a bar in advance? That's a recipe for disaster, if you use a bunch of styles. Even IF you bother to program the type in, you STILL have to know in advance which ones they are. I truly can't believe I am hearing this insanity!

Just get Korg to fix it (how hard can it be when everyone else apparently has it figured?)...

Go ahead and snub the PA. Maybe I have the one quirk unit that works great. Roland and Ketron are the absolute worst when it comes to style glitches - my opinion. No break fill? Geesh, how lame

To think one has to spend time going into menus to fix fills is ludicrous. Use what's there, work around a FEW small imperfections and enjoy the fruits of the board that is second to none.

Keep your dinosaurs, don't really care.

Ketron has had fill break on their keyboards for over ten years. Also the dinosaur you call ketron is what paved the way to have other keyboard companies step up their game.

This 'bugg'/error is NOT in the styles themsselves, but in the OS (how the Arranger handles the styles when the Fill is pressed).

The simple fix for Korg's PA issue is as thus...

* User presses fill (within a 4/4 style)
* Check for location within measure.
* If location falls around first beat - play full fill.
* If location falls around 2nd beat - play first 1/2 of arranger and last 1/2 of fill
* If location falls around 3rd beat - play first 3/4 of arranger and last 1/4 of fill OR just add CRASH (depends on how far into Arranger fill was pressed).
* If fill pressed approximately between beats, continue with Aranger up to next beat, THEN activate Fill/break, but surpress Midi notes for chords of fill/break until next beat (this is the SUGGESTED pseudo-code fix for this and the part currently not handled well on the Pa series)... just my suggestion(s).

Again, this is just pointing out a 'bugg' with a suggested fix, and we could also apply such to other manufacturers too (as has been done in the past).

With all that having being said, I still personally think the Korg Pa800/2Xpro is the most 'extensive Arranger' with generally the best 'orchestrated styles' currently in production as of 11/09/2008.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-09-2008).]

AJ,
I certainly do agree with you in general and I respect the way you have spoken about it...and your fairnes to all MFGS. As we all know none are perfect...

I will tell you guys this is not all styles...most work fine. I have not spent enough time on it to really know why this happens, and only sometimes.

I do have hardware, firmware as well as softwae engineering backgroud (Every day I write VB, C++ or other code)

I am going to find out...WHY Korg has not addressed this...trust me I am a bulldog, and I will find out. Now you have me going on this!!!

It's really a shame to have to even talk about this...A keyboard with so much going for it, and to have any issue with this?? Crazyness!

But, to keep perspective, this is one heck of a keyboard and I enjoy it a lot. I also enjoyed my T2 a lot.

I will check out the Audya when it comes out...and I will be checking out the T3 next week...IN DETAIL.

Depending on how I feel about each one and based on how I play the music I love and how much the board helps me and satisfies me..I might change horses.

Lee

Well said! What an embarrassment a person could make of themselves on stage and this type of glitch occurs!
My sentiments exactly.
Rfinnshw

I think what you were trying to say was about the 1st BEAT, 2nd BEAT, 3rd BEAT, not BAR, weren't you. AJ?

And Zuki... sorry, old chum, but attitudes like yours almost guarantee that no fix will ever be done. Attitudes like ours aren't meant as a 'bash' to Korg, but a sincere desire to see it FIXED!

After months, no, YEARS of apologists like you constantly denying the problem exists, no matter HOW many Korg users and demo-ers (I've played them in stores) say something is wrong, you step up to the plate like a good little company man, and spew the company line. Well, now that the problem has finally been demonstrated past ANY denial (other than yours), all you have left is to attack the messenger. Karl Rove arranger tactics!

The problem exists, the only current solution is to COMPLETELY change the way you use fills (I'm STILL waiting for any Korg user to say they primarily trigger fills a bar in advance... even YOU won't admit that, will you? ) and you still are in denial...

You and Ian have a lot in common, zuki. No, I take that back. Even Ian WILL admit some problems when faced with evidence.

Now will you quit shooting the messenger, and let us get on with helping to improve the arranger you love. Lord knows, far be it for you to join in and finally HELP....

What I'm trying to prevent are the innocent lurkers who read comments like:

"an embarrassment on stage"
"until fixed will never buy one"
"same as the old Korg arrangers - never change"
"glitches on many"
"catch up to the rest of the arrangers"

I am not a Korg employee and also enjoy other boards. I just think some here have really bashed this product, instead of looking at their own.

Continue to be the forum marverick, Diki. Good luck.

You remember your comments about other arrangers, zuki...?

Were they valid, even if not agreed to by users of the same arranger? Or were you ambushing lurkers yourself?

You see, you found operational aspects of other arrangers that you personally did not like. And posted them, ad nauseam. You can dish it out, but you can't take it?

And this goes FAR beyond personal opinion, here. AJ finally came up with audio examples to amply demonstrate what you and a few others had been tap dancing desperately to deny even existed... And, despite the proof, here comes the soft shoe shuffle again. Trouble is, of course, those poor 'innocent lurkers' have MUCH more than simply your personal testimonial to go on, now. They can actually hear it for themselves.

Whether they chose to live with this, or not, at least now is up to their INFORMED judgment, rather than relying on the evangelizing without the hint of criticism you offer up... Personally, were I lurking, I would put FAR more weight behind those who demonstrate their opinion, than those who remain musically anonymous...

Oh, and by the way, I think I can confidently state that I am probably the forum's greatest critic of his OWN arranger, as well as those used by others. Please don't confuse me with others such as yourself, who only have criticism of OTHER'S arrangers. All I am interested in is them ALL becoming better, and for ALL obvious flaws (such as this one) to be fixed by the manufacturers, rather than getting a 'free pass' from their fanboys.

You don't improve the breed by allowing genetic disorders to continue to propagate...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 11-09-2008).]

You win Diki. I learned a long time ago not to argue with an autocratic A personality that tries to save the world. Try enjoying what we are given instead of constantly wanting more and more and more and......

Go ahead and get the last word in. I'm done with your nonsense.

Diki,

You're right. It's beats, not bars. Corrected.

Thanks for the catch,

AJ

AJ,
What is your personal opinion on why the Korg PA works the way it does on fills?

Am I missing something here? It seems like if this was a bug, it would have been fixed long ago. Do you think Korg has some customers that like it this way (mid-eastern?),,,hence not to change it.

Something does not add up here. Korg is not stupid, and they sell a lot of these.

Thanks,
Lee

leeboy

I can't say for sure, but let me give you something to think about.

* Designing a function such that when you press a button, a light comes on instantly is hard.
* Designing a function such that when you press a button, a light come on after a delay is harder.
* Designing a function such that when you press a button, something else needs to occure BEFORE the light comes on is hardest.

The first (*) is easiest to do and if at the end of the day, people simply want the light turned on, then it won't matter, right? So why bother with the other situations that would cost more on resources and might not even be appriciated (or so it was invisioned)? Just my thoughts.

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-10-2008).]

AJ,
As long as I have the right OS (Event Driven OS preferred) I can do all those easily.

But, If I read you right you are saying they just didn't spend the time to do it right?

I think there is something more to it...I am asking Korg for an answer.
Lee

... and when you do get the answer/fix, please let me know too.

AJ ...

Give Dan O' a call 410-598-2618 or dan.oneil@yahoo.com

AJ,
Will do, thanks for your help.

I just heard from a owner of the PA1XPRO that says it does not have this problem...any comments from any other PA1X or PA1XPRO owners?

Lee

Why, thanks, massuh, for showing me my place. I be gwan' buy me some Korg now, suh! Then ah's in the promised land, fo' sure.

Trust me... I'm not done with YOUR nonsense

I respect the fact that Nigel "cleanses" out posts that go down the gutter that are completely off topic but then i get confused when absolute trash posts like this are overlooked allowing them to remain on the forum??

Is Diki a secret undercover moderator or something?? I have seen him bluntly abuse and push down so many members on this forum and everyone just ignores and watches it...

Diki are you here for personal gain or to actually give constructive and friendly input with other human beings who come on here to enjoy discussing arranger keyboard topics?

Nick the confused


[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 11-11-2008).]

Try to search a little earlier in these threads for when the recipient has taken things to another level of personal attack... (or sometimes on another simultaneous thread)

While I remain passionate about the issues of the thread (no harm in that), all too often those that hold an opposite viewpoint descend to personal slander and snide digs, I guess in lieu of anything reasoned to say... I take it for a while, but eventually, there comes a point.

Start reading from there onwards, and yes, things go awry quite quickly. But I do NOT refer, snidely to others on this forum as 'bitter, washed up, has-beens' 'Know-it-alls' and a pantheon of personal insults others feel somehow is THEIR right, until personally attacked in the first place. And even then, generally, I really don't need to stoop THAT far.

Take it as you wish, but generally, unless kidding around (and those who receive that generally know when I'm doing it!), I talk about the ISSUE... they talk about ME. Stick to the issue, guys, and this would NEVER happen. I seldom express so personally what I REALLY think of the poster - you really wouldn't want to hear the opinion I hold on those that cannot avoid expressing their OWN opinion of me! . I leave that to them...

Who's zooming who...?

Can't you guys just work on a subject ...just once without getting into a pissing contest with each other...Damm, why don't you just meat somewhere and beat the Hxxx out of each other and be done with it.

We can't seem to get any real posts going here without this big EGO thing.

It does get old. It's only a few people...
A little toying around sometimes can be fun...but this is cazyness.

Lee

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 11-11-2008).]

Oh, so you mean it's NOT all me? Damn, I was beginning to believe the hype!

Nice of someone to acknowledge that it takes at least TWO.

And, I'll repeat... keep your comments to the issue, and stay off of personal attacks on me, my character and anything else personally derogatory you can come up with, and you'll NEVER see me get personal, first.

Deny a fault with your arranger after documented proof of it, and I'll call 'bullsh*t!' every time. But it's the denial that's bull, NOT you personally... Make comments about ME rather than the issue, that's a door I won't open first (and rarely walk through afterwards).

How about we just stick to discussing the ISSUES, guys, and keep our thoughts about each other's character (or lack thereof) to ourselves?

And devil take the hindmost?

I have a Korg PA 800 in my bedroom right in front of me. i have tried on almost every style possible to make a glitch in the breaks and fills and it simply does not happen. - it is just as smooth as anyother keybord I have ever owned and played...

Possibly AJ was using a faulty instrument or a corrupted OS?

various other korg users on the Korgforum have tried to get the glitch to occur and it doesnt...

Diki - you need to go and try one for yourself before making solid opinions / judgments about Korg and their keyboards...

Nick

just another thing I wanted to add...

as a new korg user (5 hours LOL), I am not in denial that the keyboard may have faults. but honestly the fuss that some people are making of this glitch really is blown out of proportion and if I was a potential Korg customer and had no real knowledge of arrangers it would be enough to turn me off buying a Korg product which is NOT what we want to do here at SZ unless it really is a MAJOR bug/glitch/problem/fault...

like I said, I have TRIED to find the glitch by hitting the fills and breaks completely off beat and tempo and I have not noticed one single problem YET...

Until I experience an issue I wont be complaining to korg about it and thats probably why Korg havent done anythng about it either as the vast majority of korg users havent experienced the problem that AJ has shown us...

Nick

Nick,
Do I have a bad OS or instrument too??

I am wandering if it could be a hardware issue that got fixed??? Since I have had mine almost a year now (still under warranty) . PLease take some more time and try to see what we talk about here.

Mine fails at will. With every single style AJ documented...and some others I have played.

Have you actually downloaded AJ's files and listened to them? Then go to your keyboard and try the same styles. All you have to do is press fill 1 or 2 at the 3rd beat and it will fail every time.

Don't get me wrong the PA is a fantastic keyboard...but we need to get this fixed. It has been a known issue by MANY PEOPLE for a long time now.

Lee

Sorry for being late to the party, but I have used more than two hours today to reproduce the glitches that we hear in AJ's recordings on my Pa800. No matter what I do I can't reproduce these timing errors. As Lee suggests this might be related to the hardware problems that have been with some of the Pa2X's (non-working LED's and random freezes) and this might also be the reason why it can't be reproduced by the Pa800 users here on the forum.

In my opinion the problem that AJ demonstrates is different from the Korg fill problem that has been discussed many many times on this forum. The reason for this other problem was poor style programming on the earlier PA series which would make the fills sound different from the main variations. This is partly due to the fact that the Pa series have 4 main variations but only 3 fills. If you don't know the styles very well you will sometimes have to guess which fill goes with which variation and this can lead to unpleasant surprises. Korg has done a lot to improve on this with the Pa800/Pa2X, but you can still be surprised from time to time (Korg should consider really seriously to add the fourth fill).

Kind regards,
Tommy

Nick, you need to ask me first if I HAVEN'T played one before you jump to that conclusion (mind you, you are not alone!)...

Yes, I've played a PA1Xpro, heard it there occasionally, and users of PA2Xpro's have remarked than nothing has changed. Good enough for you? (probably not )

But, rather than pile on MY back, why not interrogate those owners like leeboy who actually OWN one and report the problem, or AJ, who used one to make the examples? Perhaps it would just be harder to play the same game with someone that owns one?

Look, we all miss a lot of things while we are playing. Sometimes just concentrating hard enough to get the chords and melody correct takes a large part of our thoughts. Why not record yourself play, and see if you can hear the glitches afterwards..? To be honest, trying to dismiss AJ's examples as a corrupt OS strikes me as desperation, or at least fishing furiously for ANYTHING to deny the proven...

Please, guys, why not stick to beating up on fellow owners that hear the problem as well as I can... At least you have less assumptions to get wrong...

And yes, Tommy, I still believe you are on the right track...

I still personally think that the issue is FAR more a style programming and lack of fills issue than anything in the OS. Simply the fact that it is not noticed on many styles on the newer Korg's points to Korg making more of an effort to ensure their style makers don't try to make the fills so different from the variations, but the lack of fills (although there are three, the vast majority of styles use one as a break/fill, so you really only have two) is the primary culprit...

There is just NO WAY you can get two fills to be smooth on four Variations, especially as varied as Korg often make the variations. I've already said that I think that, were Roland or Yamaha to still only have two on their current line-up, you would have the same problems (and can hear it on translated styles from Korg).

But Roland have seven, Yamaha six (real fills, that is). You REALLY need twelve for there to be a one to one on possible routes, but six or seven mitigates the problem to the point of unnoticeability (for the most part). This, I feel, is all Korg need to do to fix the problem. As long as the BEGINNING of a fill matches fairly closely the variation it comes from, you don't hear 'jumps' or 'glitches'. But when it struggles in this area, you can't help but notice it.

Nick G, Tommy F,
I sure don't understnd why you don't hear it. Did you use the same styles AJ used? Has anyone gone into the style and changed any of the CUE MODE's for fill 1 or 2? If they are set for immediate, then they are factory stock.

One more thing to try...just play variation A (not that it matters much) an just hit fill 1 or 2 AT RANDOM...Do you hear the sudden sound that does not fit? Just try any of these...Latin Bolero, PophitBallad, Real16Beat, Standard8Beat.

Lee

Leeboy ... I think this is part of why some hear this problem and some, like myself do not. I do not hit the fill "Randomly"!!!
Maybe it's just me but I (use the EC5) hit the fill, most times, at the top of the bar (on the 1st beat) sometimes on the last beat. (4/4 of course)I certainly do not think of myself has having "Exceptional" timing but I never have a problem with this on the Pa2x. Previous Korg arrangers I have had, in particular, the first PA1x ... yes this was a major pain in the A--!!!

the other day, my wife and i were watching a movie on tv. after a while, due to the bad digital sync between video and audio, the voice of the characters was coming in with a lag. i said "look, it's going unsync" and my wife's reply was "what do you mean? i see nothing wrong"
it took another 15 minutes, while the unsync lag was increasing, until she finally noticed what i meant.

could be that for some of us, these little glitches (because they are just small unsyncs, few miliseconds of delays in timing, little bit too abrupt coming-in) are just passing unnoticed?

to me, i KNOW i had this problem (the relative volume of fills is indeed another issue, a different one) with smoothness of fills with my PA50. i noticed it when trying PA800 and PA2X. i notice it whenever, where ever occurs.

but maybe to some of us, again, it just passes unnoticed, somehow.

if that's the case, i can understand very well why there are some very defensive aproaches here. and that only increses the efforts from the other side to prove the obvious.

i think korg could solve this simply by fixing it! hehe

Another thing to consider is that the Pa800 and Pa2X often has different versions of the same style. The Pa2X came out a year after the Pa800 and a lot of improvements/changes have been made to the styles, by example the Pa2X has many more styles using guitar mode. When I listen to AJ's Pa2X recordings of Standard 8 Beat and Real 16 Beat they do sound slightly different than what I hear on my Pa800. This could be the reason why I have difficulty reproducing the problem on my Pa800 - or maybe Adimatis is right: My rythmic sense could be less developed than others here on the forum (however, I do hear the glitches very clearly when comparing the good and bad recordings by AJ).

Right now the best solution might be to wait for OS 2.0. It should be right around the corner (this week?) and according to Korg like "a whole new keyboard".

Kind regards,
Tommy

Basically, if you hit on the 'one' (but NEVER fractionally late) or on the 'four' (or later) on a Korg, you don't actually get any glitches, because you are doing the ONE thing that the Korg wants to see...

On the 'four' it waits till the 'one' to bring in the fill, and as long as you don't hit the 'one' late, that triggers the fill with no overlap with the previous bar (which is what everyone is hearing).

But many use fills either less precisely, or more often, partially. In other words, fills can be used for MUCH more than simply triggering the entire fill. Hit the fill on the 'two' or the 'three', or even the 'four' (but not late into it) and you get what is called a 'pickup' rather than a fill, a 'lift' in feel without the drama of an entire bar's fill.

This is a VERY common drummer technique.

Now, I know some of the Korg fans are going to chime in here about the Korg's extra long variations, that have pickups at four bar boundaries, and this is all well and good. BUT... some songs don't have regular 8 bar repeated sections, and sometimes you need a pickup on other bars.

THIS is what the Korg has a problem with, depending on the style. You simply can't do your own pickups without things getting unpredictable.

Bend what YOU want to do to what the Korg will let you, and all is fine, but personally, I'd rather the arranger do what I want than the other way around...

Here is what Rob Sherratt has just posted over at Korg forums. Rob is probably the man with the most knowledge about Korg arrangers - and he is the man behind the great Korg instructional dvds:

*** CITATION BEGIN ***

Hello Lee and Rikki,

Here is a theory:

a) The style trigger problem is not evident at all on the Pa1x.

b) The problem is only evident on the Pa800/ Pa2x with styles that use guitar mode for one or more of the tracks. The problem was introduced at the time the first guitar mode styles were launched.

c) The problem is caused because the "guitar mode" control signals are not parsed correctly by the style play software "back in time" by software when you trigger the fill or variation change.

Let me know if your testing of different styles supports this theory?

Though God knows why we are doing the test and diagnosis of Korg software bugs for them. They should just acknowledge the problem report, give it a trouble ticket number, and say it will be attended to in the next software release.

Best regards,
Rob

*** CITATION END ***

This could be good news since it should be possible for Korg to fix the guitar mode algorithms relatively easily - maybe they have done it already in OS 2.0?

This can also explain why it is so difficult to reproduce the problem on the Pa800 since the Pa800 has very few guitar mode styles. Of the four styles AJ used only "Real 16 Beat" uses guitar mode on the Pa800.

Kind regards,
Tommy

look, there might be more problems with korg styles than we realize. rob is speaking about an issue first occured after introduction of guitar mode. ok, but the styles glitches i experienced were with PA50, LONG BEFORE guitar mode.

i believe it's simply a matter of how the OS knows to commute from variation pattern to fill pattern and back. it seems there are situations when this change between different patterns simply does not happen smoothly, probably because of some "markers" that work inaccurately.

the problem i hear first happen with pa series. and it seems to be permanent, thru all of the updates and new models ever since.

Yes, now that we know that the glitches in AJ's recordings are probably due to a bug in the Guitar Mode algorithm (and therefore can expected to be fixed by Korg sooner or later), we can return to the normal discussion about why Korg styles seem to have less seamless transitions than the competition:

Like most arrangers these days Korg also have 4 main variations. In many of the factory styles each variation is 8 measures in length. This gives you 32 different patterns that must all be matched by only 3 different fills. And this is before we begin to talk about the six chord variations (CV1-CV6) which allow the arranger to play different patternes depending on the chord type.

3 fills is simply too few when combined with the very advanced arranger structure of the Korgs. One extra fill would be a great addition but it wont solve the problem completely. I guess that in the current situation we have to choose between the very rich and realistic styles of the Korgs and the more simple and repetitive styles of the Yamahas. If seamless transitions is the higher priority we should choose Yamaha. If realism is the higher priorty we should choose Korg. I only mention Korg and Yamaha since in my opinion they represent the two extremes. Roland and Ketron are placed somewhere in between which could be a good compromise, but unfortunately no one know when - or if - we will see a new high end arranger from thse two.

That said Korg has actually done a lot to improve on the fill transitions in Pa800/Pa2X but it is still not 100% perfect and can't be unless they completely change the arranger structure. However, as Adimatis points out the problem was much worse in Pa80/Pa60/P50 (I owned a Pa60 before I got the Pa800).

Kind regards,
Tommy


[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 11-13-2008).]

Tommy ... AMEN!!
I agree with you 100%!! Let us put this to bed!!!

NEXT!!!!!!!

I was working on my Christmas music until 3am. On my new PA2X, I tried everything I could do to make these fills glitch, hitting them on the 1st, 4th, odd beats, etc and they are as smooth as silk. What can I say? And Ad, I surely would know when there are glitches. I try to perfect my arrangements and would not stand for any hiccups.

I do believe machines seem to be a tad different. I appears my 2x is a better than my 800.

Maybe I'll get both boards in the house and try them side by side.

For those trying to reproduce the 'glitch'.
Let me represent a measure with letters where the down-beat (where you hear the kick drum) is on A, B, C and D for a 4/4 style).


A 2 3 4 B 2 3 4 C 2 3 4 D 2 3 4


If you press the fill/break on A, B C or D, you get no glitch (Good).

If you press the fill/break on "3". you get no glitch as it actually starts on 4 (Good).

If you press the fill/break on "4", you get no glitch (Good).

However, when you press the fill on "2" regardless of the measure, this is where you hear the extra "Chord" coming in as if someone actually played a short chord right at this moment (hear demos shown above).

Hope this is a better whay to explain how to 'create' the error.

Thanks,

AJ

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-13-2008).]

TommyF,
Yes what you say I agree on also...

BUT...Here we have a known issue, reproduceable, a problem for some of us that have a PA and have even gone pretty far as to diagnosing that it is guitar mode styles (mostly) that cause the real irritating problem...WHY WOULD WE DROP IT???
NO, WE WILL NOT DROP IT UNTILL KORG FIXES IT.

I think it is a simple matter of getting their attention on it...they are very smart folks and will fix it easily.

As far as more fills...maybe PA3XPRO...not enoght buttons on the current model to add any fills (unless they decided to do auto fill like Yamaha, that would be pretty nice too.

Lee

How could AJ hear this on 2 & no one else does?

What do you mean no one else does...lots can hear it...me included.

Rikki, as you know is well respected for her knowledge of styles and making them...she hears it, and has along with Rob Sherratt come up with a theory of guitar tracks styles causing it,,,should be (may already have in OS2) easily fixed.

Lee

I agree, and with all the noise we have made both here and on the Korg forums I am quite sure that Korg can't ignore the fill+guitar mode bug. However, I still hope it has been fixed already in OS 2.0.

Kind regards,
Tommy

[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 11-13-2008).]

+1..

This is an issue that dates back at least to the early days of the PA80. It was and still to this day is the only issue I ever really had with the board. It's apparently never been fixed, although I will tell you that reworking my styles and adjusting the fills has helped, but not completely cured the problem. I've done this with most of the styles that I regularly would use, I've had the board almost 8 years now.

That said, Korg has known of this issue for all those years, simce we were discussing it in 2001 back on the Irish Acts forum, where at least 2 korg reps that I can think of frequented the forum back then.

I love the sound of the Korg styles, but quite frankly, the fill issues were never solved, and it was a major factor in why I instead "settled" for the Tyros 2 when I made my last arranger purchase.

AJ

According to Rob there were issues in the 'old' days (Pa50 etc.)with styles and smoothness. Korg reworked many styles and basically solved a good portion of this in PA1 V3.01. I personally think that the guitar mode styles are the ones we are really complainming about.

Because of only 3 fills, yes that may not be ideal. But MANY styles I play on PA2 are fine and sound great! and fills too!

So, if this guitar mode styles issue is not fixed in OS2, (we hope they did) we will continue to pressure Korg to fix it as soon as they can.

Meanwhile maybe future OS might include 4 (or 8) more fills? Auto fills between variations would really be nice.

For me anyways if they get the problem fixed with styles using gutar mode...it will be very acceptable.

Lee

Team,

I just got done a 20 mins. presentation/demo with Bobby Nelson (Korg Product Specialist - USA) and conference call with one of the main Engineers at Korg Italy Spa. (he didn't want to be named).

"They are still trying to resolve this issue" is all I can say for now ... at least it had been recognized as a "Fill in/Break Quantize" problem, independent of guitar mode (as it was noticeable in the first PA arrangers).

I think if I can get some of these issues directly to the Engineers (I only know those at Ketron, Korg and Yamaha for now), we can get a lot done as a team ... again it's all about perfecting what's already out there!

Thanks,

AJ

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-13-2008).]

eventhough i am not a korg user right now, i can only say GOOD!
and congratulations AJ for getting these people at least admit the problem and promisse to do something about it!
well done!

Damn... NOW what are all the 'apologists' going to say?

If Korg can acknowledge it, surely that means it's now officially OK for you to mention it..? No more having to break with corporate loyalty, and looking like some kind of independent thinker. It's the official line...

Come on in, the water's lovely (What's the emoticon for 'tongue in cheek'? )

Just wondering if AJ's sudden interest in this matter may have something
to do with Ketron have similiar problems with Audya?

Cheers
GJ

Gunnar Jonny

I choose to bring up issues with ALL major Arrangers so these issues can in time be resolved, that's where my interest is ... for now. The other manufacturer's (including Ketron's) are coming right up.

Thanks,

AJ

AJ,
Thank You!

It seems the way to get info to Korg is through the distrubutor, NOT the forums posts.

I would also like to say...I would buy a keyboard from Ketron, (assuming I liked all it did) because of AJ...Here he is actually helping us Korg guys get our keyboard just a little better. That kind of attitude and character is what makes me smile...it's the way I run my small company and customers do notice.

It just goes to show you...he was trying to help by bring this up..not trying to be negative as to get more people over to Ketron! The Audya will sell on it's own strenghs! I may buy one some day.

Thanks again AJ,
Lee

Hi AJ,
if the glitch that is causing the problem is a "phantom chord"?

then maybe the problem is in the "Trigger Mode"

I used to get phantom chords at the beginning of my argeggiated piano styles on my SD1. Just realized why? It's because I had my style track set to Retrigger instead of to Off, so I would get a phantom chord triggerring, whenerever I changed chords instead of just the single first note.

Latin Bolero Accomp 2 fills is guitar arpeggio. I noticed when hit at the wrong time ,it triggers a phantom chord instead of the single first note.

In record Mode menu " Style Track Control , I altered the Trigger Mode for Accomp 2 to " Off" Appears to eliminate phantom chord.

Whether or not this fixes the actual glitch, I don't know. Also maybe it shouldn't be done because it effects accomp 2 globally on this style???

Anyway, I tested a couple of the other tracks, but I haven't been able to make them come up with the phantom chord .

I'm one of the ones's, that didn't hear the glitch all that easily, not until I muted the rest of the tracks & listened to them individually. Just be interested to know if setting trigger mode to Off on accomp 2 fixes anything.

Lee, btw
By the way it's "not" a Guitar Mode track.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ketron_AJ:
[b]For those trying to reproduce the 'glitch'.


[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-13-2008).]

Rikki,
Thanks for all the time you have spent on this...looks like you have discovered at least one thing. We have given them input and Personally, I would sure think the programmers/developers already know exactly what's wrong.

Since this in general has been reported for quite a while...you wander just exactly whats going on with it. I suspect it's not just a couple line of code to chnge...or it would have been done before now.

Hopefully we will here something about it soon..may have to wait a while for the fix, bu it will be nice to hear of a plan.

Meanwhile there is plenty of great music to extract from the PA. And some super styles that work fine.

Lee

AJ,

Thanks for your persistence and hard work on behalf of us non engineer types here

[This message has been edited by zuki (edited 11-14-2008).]

Hi Lee,
still messing round with it, just got me intrigued. Personaly it doesn't worry me all that much, but if there's a possible fix, then great.
It's been quite a while since I've messed around with either my psr or SD1, but as far as I can rember, neither the ketron or psr has optional trigger modes like the Korg ie immedite, begginning of next bar or begginning at first bar. The Ketron & psr each instrument appears to flow on smoothly from where you hit the fill.
The "Immediate" setting in the Korg in a couple of instances triggered phantom chords in arpeggio tracks as soon as the fill button was pressed, also in some of the fills I checked all the instruments come in at the same time playing a chord, which might be okay for the first beat of a bar , but can sound a bit heavy if you've triggered your fill on the second beat. Maybe this is what is giving the impression of a glitch.

Anyway be interesting to see if they can come up with a solution.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by leeboy:
[B]Rikki,

Rikki,
Thanks again...
Oh by the way...I'm sure the Korg Engineers know EXACTLY what is going on...Now to see what (if) they will resolve it.

And how??

It would make quite a few folks happy, be a nice improvement and result in future sales. IMHO.

Lee

... I just found out that this 'error' effect is not just limited to when you press the fills & break but also the Arrangements (e.g. when going from Arranger A to Arranger D, or B to A ... etc ) - same scenario ... I have also reported this to Korg.

The new Pa2XPro/Pa800 OS2 doesn't seem to address this issue. I guess we called it in late ... maybe OS3 will?

What? the new OS 2 didn't fix the Fill issues? well hopefully many others good things were included in teh new OS....I'm sure we'll here what changes people are experiencing soon enough.

Wouldn't be a big deal for me...can't count to four, anyway!


R.

OS2 was put to bed coding wise way before we escalated the fill issue.

It does seem like the volumes of fills has been leveled out.

Fill issue should get some attention soon. We hope...it is certainly not a show stopper but needsfixed.

I didn't notice it on any of the 26 NICE NEW STYLES we got.

OS2 has some nice features and was a price performer.

Lee

How could OS2 have fixed the fill issue?

You were all (most of you, at least, with Korg's) furiously denying the problem even existed up until last week or so... now you expect a fix THAT fast...

C'mon guys, get real!

It takes time to work out the fixes, beta test them, incorporate them into a new OS without managing to break something else in the process...

This is why you need to acknowledge and demand action as soon as possible... because even if they get on it right away, there's still a fair amount of lag time in getting it done.

Quit playing 'defender', and start playing 'improver'

I don't know what all the fuss is about. I spent a good portion of last evening with OS2 on my Pa2xpro. The board feels like it's a brand new keyboard. I didn't have any fill or transition issues, all the styles seemed smooth and lively. The board actually sounds much more clear and crisp. The new styles and sounds are awesome. The DNC Crunch Guitar with Overdrive, muted strings, string-bend, etc. is awesome.

I believe the styles were reworked with new Cue settings which are now part of the OS parameters for style creation. Many styles are now using the new DNC sounds and the keyboard really sounds better. They obviously spent a good deal of time working on tweaking the EQ and remapping sounds.

I also didn't experience the issues with the multi-pads that has also been stated. What I did as an experiment was to start the multi-pad, press the style start button, and then press stop. Each time I did that the Multi-pad stopped with the style. It didn't matter when I pressed the stop whether it was mid bar, at the end, or not, it simply stopped both the style and the pad. Now I only tried this on three styles, so if it's a style issue I did not try each one.

I'm very pleased with this OS release and you have to be happy with the value proposition; this update was free! Way to go Korg!

Hi Al,
some people don't want to bother pressing the STOP button.
I've been playing around with it also to see what the fuss was about.
I don't think it's a fault. Percussion pads play on endings, and sometimes an ending stops in the middle of a bar. The percussion pad continues till the end of it's loop , after all, a pad is only synced to, it's not part of the style. Simple solution is to press stop as you do.

Instrument pads( guitars etc) don't play on endings, they stop when an ending starts , the same as on psrs's.

As for os 2, it's absolutely brilliant for my needs.

best wishes
Rikki

Actually, I occasionally like the pads continuing to play, it gives a different kind of ending. And if I do not want them to play I just press Stop. Similarly the lower voice continues to play, and again you have the option to turn Memory off and stop the sound or allow it to continue until the end of the measure.

I agree, OS 2.0 is wonderful, I am setting up my Christmas programs right now and the styles and sounds are fantastic.

Graham

There is also the 'new' problem "after" OS 2.0 has been installed dealing with the User Drum Kits. I wonder if this would be a problem at all if the Pa2XPRO/Pa800 were purchased with OS 2.0 already installed from the factory. It seems like it is happening to those who have already created User Drum Kits on the Pa2XPRO/Pa800 and then they installed OS 2.0. If OS 2.0 were "already installed" and then a person begins creating User Drum Kits, if it would still act the same way as it does with those who upgraded to OS 2.0 and already had User Drum Kits created on the keyboard?? Inquiring minds would like to know..

Best,
Mike

Mike what user drum problems are they?