As long as you're not naked....

Jeez, guys... how about adjusting the dosage on those meds you are taking?

Look a little bloodletting about this is maybe OK from time to time, but essentially, you guys are arguing over the exact same thing! Whether the automatic accompaniment comes from tiny SMF snippets that you have to direct (but you are NOT actually playing) or from a longer SMF (that you are NOT playing) it's all basically the same thing.

I don't for one minute think that arranger mode is any more or less 'honest' than SMF mode. For me, the choice comes down to how much of what the audience hears is YOU, and how much is canned, in whatever form it IS canned.

Now, many of us grew up musically in the days where you DID have to play everything the audience heard... so you had a drummer, a bass player (or you kicked pedals) and maybe a guitarist, and then you. The luckier of you had maybe a sax player, the luckiest had a whole horn section... Placed in the role of the guy that had to play EVERYTHING other than the rhythm section (except for that lucky few), you developed technique to play as much as possible. Of course, not being octopi, you had to make compromises. But the more skilled amongst us could make enough variety that you gave the impression maybe three or four parts were going on. Multiple keyboards helped, but basically, on most pop songs, you did a piano part, maybe an organ layer with a pedal to bring it in and out, a string part (on your string machine) some brass parts, maybe a synth line or two.

You were busier than a cat on a hot tin roof, and when you pulled it off well, the crowd adored you, because not for one SECOND did they think it wasn't you, but some recording...

When was the last time you felt like that? Perhaps some of you are deluded into thinking that the audience is applauding what YOU play nowadays... Turn off the machines, play a set without them. Are they still clapping? Are they still dancing? If so, kudos... If not, perhaps it's time to examine once again your musical soul, and maybe make an effort to get back to those older, golden days...

But NOT by joining a full band (unless you are a fool, like me! ), but at least by returning to your roots, and trying to play everything you possibly can, and limiting what the machine does to basic rhythm section. Now, this doesn't mean picking one form of accompaniment over another - if you use your arranger's Piano mode, you can do some excellent trio type music, where you are still playing it all but the parts you wouldn't have played back in the day, anyway. Use your registration controls to flick back and forth between the full keyboard piano style and the LH chords, RH solo type, and now you have your horn player too (your LH is STILL adequate for the piano comp without resort to the arranger's auto stuff, isn't it?)...

Alternatively, you can either buy SMF's or prepare them yourself, strip them down to bass drums and guitar, and then play as if you were STILL in a live band. Play all the parts yourself... But, as I have said for a while, one of the primary advantages of the arranger to the skilled live player used to be that you could rearrange a song on the fly, extend it, shorten it, change it's key, change it's basic rhythm, even... The use of Markers in SMF's allow you to do all that nowadays, and still be freed from limiting what you can do with your LH due to it's need on the changes (a busy jazz or even pop tune doesn't really leave you much time for anything else).

This, for me, presents the opportunity to go back to those primary skills, and concentrate on playing as much as is humanly possible myself. And the realization (from back in the day) that if you do this well, you don't HAVE to play every lick on every sound in the original for your audience to still be entertained, and impressed with your playing. Those that are paying any attention to you know how much is you (you would be amazed at what some of them can spot!) and how much is NOT. If most of it is you, they will know (particularly if you stop playing full piano to do a sax solo, for instance. If the piano part just keeps on going, there goes your credibility... )

But, in fairness, if most of the parts that the audience hears are NOT you, whether it is SMF's or style play, they don't CARE. If they hear horn licks, and don't see you playing, they really don't give a rats arse if you are playing the chord that the horn lick is derived from They just know it ain't you.

So, guys.... give up the bickering. If you aren't playing everything you can (rather than everything you want to!), whether it's SMF's or Style play, you are all painted with the same brush....

It isn't what METHOD you use, it's how you use the method. Use it to support you the least it can, and your audience will recognize this. Let it be your master, and you are a sideman...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-19-2008).]

Yes I concur with Diki on this one, as well as Donny.

I used to play in a piano trio back in the day, the four and 5 piece lineups came later. So I got used to playing a whole lot of songs just using keys with a drummer and bassist.

In fact I try to stick to that as much as possible even now, so most styles I use have no keyboard in them, very little guitar (unless its a rock tune) and off we go. Same goes for the smf's I use too.

Also, and my view only, I think it makes it much more fun to play. But that's just me.

I know others like having the full brass and string sections et al, and thats cool too.

As for playing with a style or a smf, they are pretty much one and the same to me, ( albeit after the aforementioned editing)so I too, don't understand the seemingly major rift on this issue.

Dennis

I simply think that a lot of the tension comes from just HOW varied our skill levels are on this forum. It is NOT a 'pro' forum, it isn't an 'amateur' or 'home' keyboard player forum, it isn't for arranger only mode players, nor SMF players, or for live musicians rather than home ones.

We are ALL here. Trying to talk to each other, but often not having the slightest clue what each other means...

There is something about the arranger which defeats the humility that learning to play a traditional keyboard usually engenders. Most piano players, or fledgling keyboard players, are all TOO aware of just how much more they need to learn, of just how difficult what they are trying to do is. They get this from the unadulterated feedback they get to THEIR playing.

Sadly, the arranger, with it's 'do it all for you' approach, often tends to puff up the self-impression of skill of many that can't play their way out of a paper bag without all the style parts running But, back in the deepest recesses of their minds lurks a little voice, which can irritate the hell out of you! But POST what that voice is actually saying, and some of the more defensive can go off the deep end and attack the messenger (who's only saying what they know to be true, anyway )...

You can fool yourself into thinking that holding down a chord IS playing all those parts the audience (or even just yourself) hears, but it AIN'T. It ain't a whole LOT more than simply going karaoke. Play with a real band from time to time... Get your humility the old fashioned way Deal with musicians that WON'T wait for you if you forget to come in at the right time. Deal with musicians that look at you funny if you rush or drag your timing. Deal with musicians that will glare at you if you step on someone else's solo Learn just how far you DO have to go... (or re-acquaint yourself if you USED to know this stuff!)

Then perhaps you won't feel as obliged to attack a member here who simply 'fakes' playing a different way than YOU do...

One thing we have here is a tiny minority of members that ONLY play in live bands (and I'm not one of them!). But they still play arrangers. Now, I know about the financial aspects of using canned backing, but let's face it... are you trying to be a 'pro' arranger player, or are you just trying to be a better musician? Because if it is the latter (one would hope that the majority of us care about the latter, but who knows? ) trying to develop the skills that COULD get you some playing time with other musicians, which is the REAL place you learn and grow, should be a thing of importance.

Minimize your backing, from time to time, in whatever form it takes, and you ARE preparing yourself for that opportunity, when it comes. Subjugate your entire technique to simply working the arranger section to it's best, and I'm afraid you aren't giving yourself the right skills. They ARE skills, don't get me wrong. But they don't really help much when it's time to hit the stage with a real band...

One thing we must not lose sight of is that the 'Arranger keyboard' is a fairly new concept as far as musical instruments go (about 20 years) SMF's have been around much longer in various guises, it requires a certain technique to play an arranger properly and yes some people find them hard to accept as a professional musical tool but is is early days yet and as time goes by the general public and snotty purist musicians will realise that there is a place for this instrument and 'yes' some of the things they hear aren't being played by the performer, the arranger is following the player pretty much the same a very good live musician would do, arranger playing is a skill in itself, I've had brilliant pianist's visit me who made my S900 sound like crap. To me there is not much difference in using live musicians or an arranger, the end product is the same...entertainment !

An 'Arranger' is just another tool to get the job done FULL STOP, it has nothing to do with not having the skill to work with real musicians, most arranger players on here have played in live bands for years, I would rather play with live musicians as I actually find the gigs a lot easier as I only have to think about playing my instrument part only! ... When I go out as a OMB I have to be all the musicians and make it sound like they are really there and all the extras that go with it like tempo's, drum fills, solo's etc.

I don't know what sort of cantankerous musicians you play with Diki but musicians I perform with are all very professional and are aware of things that happen whilst performing live and adjust accordingly without all the angry reactions your ramblings implied.

As time goes by and trends change I really don't want to hear this....................

Oh look at that keyboard player...he has to surround himself with live musicians because he hasn't the skill to use to use an arranger...!!!!

Good day gentlemen.

I'm with Donny all the way on this one.

I'm in a duo - keys / drums. We both do vocals because there isn't anyone else available.

We play foxtrots, waltzes etc completely live because you need to be able to extend / cut short the tune depending upon reaction.

We play modern "uptempo" pop covers by playing and singing over SMF's. The modern audience has been conditioned by disco's (and indeed karaoke) to expect something that is a very reasonable facsimilie of the original.

Therefore we could be categorised as glorified Karaoke.

We do not attempt to hide in any way the fact that we are using backing tracks; I have edited all the tracks we use to leave "space" for my keys and his drums. The track we use are a mix of commercial and homebrew tracks with a small number found on the internet (you get what you pay for, the standard of most "internet" midi files is terrible).

We consider ourselves to be entertainers. We add far more to the experience than just singing along to the backing tracks. If we ever felt we really were just Karaoke singers in smart suits we would give up altogether.

John

WHO CARES SERIOUSLY THERE IS SOME GREAT KARAOKE AND SOME OK AND SOME HORRIBLE SOME WITH AUDIO TRACKS SOME WITH MIDI SMF OR STYLE FILES. GET OVER IT. THERE USED TO BE NO ROCK N ROLL OR MODERN MUSIC. And this defence has nothing to do with todays lousy song sujevt matter. Karaoke has kept alot of people havpy and some songs from being forgotten forever.

Your probably right, Diki...that's why I have a piano and occasionally do a solo gig, just to keep the chops up...and also why I jam with the guys a few times a month.

It puts things in perspective.

Now....about those meds.....NURSE!

Ian

people can be cheap unapreciative of the best musicians and never give them credit or pay them .... thats this day and age it does suck... we just have to hang in there and be creative the best we can with whatever level and amount of talents we have

I defend Karaoke because it began a lurative 12 year run in a a nationally know Tribute artist show for 12 years which in turn led to many other opportunities with many producers of quality shows in professional venues with professional staff. . I retired from that 3 years ago when I got married. No more travelling. YAY!!!

Played and traveled with many different live bands. Some Acts used tracks with the bands I did not,I preferred two keyboard players, but many times We would show up at an Amphitheater and have the afternoon to rehearse six acts and an assembling of hired musicians who flew out from various parts of the country. Needless to say the track acts were less nervous then the charted acts. But the musicians were always pros who could read.

I am all about live bands, I did not do track shows except early on before I was scooped up in Las Vegas.

The point is our experiences are different. I began in Karaoke and because of Karaoke I had a long Career and been to places I never would have gone and met people I never would have met from Vegas to Branson MO to Singapore, Spent NY Eve 2000 in Japan (a $4000 gig)to sing 4 songs in a six act show)

I respect Karaoke and without it I would not be living the way I do today without debt and the most important.....I met my wife who was one of the keyboard players on one of my contracted gigs, She still plays. I just like to write and occasionally may go out with here. Although I now prefer hang out in the Music Store a few hours a day and sell dreams....

Thats why I defend Karaoke....my wife hates it for obvious reasons...


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-20-2008).]