With all the swapping out keyboards (everyone)....I was thinking if only Roland changed up their marketing design...

If Roland took the arranger (portable) units from the CK division (Home piano stores)..and put together a nice promotion for the MI stores (Musical instrument)..I believe you could see a big change in popularity of Roland arrangers...

Any store you go into..you will find Korg PA800 and PA500..also Yamaha lines..also Casio lines too...If Roland marketed the existing E-50/60 keyboards as the competition does...more customers would get their hands on a great keyboard, that in the E-60 has a great keyfeel, range and great edit tools..that simply out shines the 61 key models previously mentioned..

With very little effort .Roland could take a large share of this market..They just have to make the right decision to move them in the MI division..

The truth be told ..The CK stores are not interested in selling arrangers...They make a much more solid mark up on the pianos..and they do not need to be up on technology that is important to sell arrangers...

Changing the market division is the starting point...Roland needs to make training available to sales personnel...if refused..find dealers that will know the products..


In the past history..look how hard it was/is to demo a G70, E-80, E60....Roland needs exposure..they already have the product...

It is truly amazing that no one in the organization sees this. At the very least, open it up to both divisions for experimentation.

Competition breeds success. It stands to reason that Roland arrangers would be where their competition is.

There are a few CK dealers I know that have savvy arranger salesmen, but they devote their time selling high ticket items and very few arrangers.

I agree with you guys a hundred percent. I didn't even know about arrangers other than the little Casios until the mid 90's. And then I learned about them at a worship leader's workshop. They had the G 800 there as an alternative to a praise band. When I got back home I went to my Roland dealer and asked him to order me one. He had never heard of it and asked me if I was sure I wanted it. Same thing with the G 1000. I saw one at Mars Music and bought it on sight. The sales people weren't sure what it was, but I knew what it was and I took it home with me right there. And the only place I've ever seen a G 70 was at Chuck Levin's Music in DC at a demo that AJ from Ketron was giving. Roland products are awesome. I still use the G 1000 at church and in my studio.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Currently Roland has no true powerfull arranger to market...

I think we might be in for a surprise soon tough....positive or negative. Either they'll announce the Totl arranger, or they'll announce their retreat from the arranger market.

Guys Guys..... Working in a music store married to a 30 year professional keyboard player who has played for many major shows and does hundreds of single dates a year and myself having performed with national acts fronting many bands. I have never seen on single arranger nor have when asked has any one I have worked with even considered using an arranger keyboard live. There are all pro player who derive their sole income from performance. Not week end warriors or retires. These are the bread and butter buyers of product.

My wife feels that she is being hired as a Keyboard player and as such would never show up with anything less than 88 key weighted board, either the RD700 or even a Casio Previa 320 for beach gigs to go along with here Bose system and Guitar. I speak to pro players every day in the MI store I work in a beach town that employs many many singles, duos, and some bands most of the year. NO ONE uses an arranger on the job or would consider them. But they all like them and understand their benefit, if only for songwriting and recording.

Arranges are HOME keyboards for the most part. (and studio keyboards for people like us) We use ours exclusively at home to create tracks which we then may use on the gig. We use floor based TC Helicon harmonizers with a guitar and a keyboard,rather than the onboard harmonizers which don't compare whether the Yamaha or the Korg.

Yamaha (and I suspect Roland and Korg) is well aware in the US musicians do not consider Arranger keyboards as PERFORMANCE instruments, with the exception of a few who may play small backyard parties , nursing homes and maybe the MOOSE CLUB on week ends.

I believe the Europeans are more comfortable with using arranger professionally . Its a cultural thing. I would not think of taking my T3 out.I would rather use it to arrange home grown songs and create some tracks for live performance.

Te major makers are aware of their markets. Those few who do buy arrangers are in the minority. Far more Motifs, M3,s and Fantoms are sold than T3's and PA2xs for live use and in general especially as the lines are combing blurred with the mega arpeggiators on those boards

Im not surprised Pre MI stores like Guitar Center do not stock arrangers and MI stores like ours who carry $4000+ PRS, Fender,Ibanez, Taylor Guitars etc, as well as real Grand Pianos and DJ gear and PAs carry nothing but arranger keyboards and one lone Mini Motif....

The bottom line is we ARE a huge full line MI store and may sell one Tyros a year a truckload of Claviovas. IN A WORKING MUSICIAN"S MARKET!!!!Its the market.

IF Arrangers were a huge market the Wersis and Ketrons would certainly have a much higher presence in the US.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-13-2008).]

WOW!!! Are yo going to get an ear full..

Our area must be a little different than your area...There are many playing arrangers "professionally" here..

I am talking about top players..performing weddings , parties, clubs..as well as nursing homes...

I don't see the difference between ..making your arrangement at home, and playing it on the job as an MP3 or midi file...Just learn to play it live...same results..

The beauty of a good arranger (76 keys)...is the ability to play just left hand bass with right hand piano and another accent color with a pedal...all using great drum patterns with fills....It don't get better..

The only "Pros" that don't use an arranger are the ones that just aren't aware what they can do....

I totally disagree with your opinion on this subject....

I would consider this nonsense..

Uhhh, Bachus...., ever hear of the Roland G-70 or the E-80? Care to explain how these models are "no true powerful arranger"?

Fran, you know I have been saying exactly the same thing for over three years since they moved the G-series from MI stores to the CK dealerships. The demise of the line since then proves us right... Strangely enough, I talked to a Roland rep just about the time this all went down, and he told me that the reason for it was that the marketing divisions were offered either the new V-Accordions OR the arranger lines, but they couldn't have both. The MI guys wanted the V-Accordions, so off to the gulag of the CK dealers went the arranger line!

Whether this was bullsh*t or not, I don't know, but it has a ring to it... So, firstly, I doubt that gross sales of the V-Accordions has even come CLOSE to the gross on the arranger line (at least when it WAS marketed well), so a bad decision for MI, and the CK dealers' neglect and indifference has rapidly pulled Roland down. Add to that the problems with the initial G70 OS, slowly and incompletely fixed (I think that the MI dealers were FAR more proactive in insisting that operational defects be corrected than the CK's, who rarely even KNEW of any problems - got to PLAY 'em to know what's wrong ), and you have a recipe for disaster.

What is saddest is this is, and has always been, a snap for Roland to fix. But no-one has the cojones to admit the mistake and correct it. It may well, now, be too late. The GW-8 IS an arranger, but lacks a few essential operational things, IS marketed to the MI division, and may cloud the issue so much that the TRUE arrangers simply get dropped. Sad times are ahead, amply displayed by Roland's dropping a large percentage of their Italian workforce (who make the E and G series)...

Fran,
Roland no longer has a CK division. It's all merged into one MI division. They did this over a year ago.....suprise, surprise! And the problem...........Most MI stores do not want to carry the arranger products such as the E80, E60 and E50. There are many reasons, but the best I know of is lack of salesmen understanding these products and knowing how to show them to potential customers. I do think most music stores in the USA really don't believe there is much of a market for arranger if they are high end.


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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Kingfrog... If your wife feels she has to turn up with an 88 note stage keyboard, then they are hiring her to be a PIANIST.. plain and simple. And the honest truth is, were she to turn up with a 76 note ANYTHING, she could do the job just as well (or at least well enough no-one notices).

I am hired to PLAY in bands. They don't hire my equipment! If what I bring does the job, no-one says a word! Whether it is a 36 note strap-on KX-5 and a module, or a 76 note anything you like. They hire ME..

For me, a one keyboard rig is preferable to the three sided stacks I used to use in the seventies and eighties. But I have to be able to play organ parts, as well as piano parts. To do THAT well all on one keyboard it cannot be an 88 wood. Organ playing relies on speed and smears, glisses, dives and all the other tricks that are close to impossible on a wooden weighted keyboard. Conversely, piano needs AT LEAST 76 notes to be able to get the range of LH RH separation you expect (surprisingly, though, those last few outside notes are seldom used from an 88).

I believe that the performance is what drives people's satisfaction with you as a player. Not the equipment you play on. The trick is to pick a keyboard that excels at ALL areas of sound, not just being an arranger. Once you play with live musicians, sounds that can cut it against anemic drums in the arranger seldom work well against the real thing.

My take has been to weight my buying decisions primarily towards how well the sounds work in a live setting. Then make sure the built-in drums can keep up with that, for when you need them. Most arranger shortcomings can be worked around, but anemic sounds CAN'T...

The problem, and most of the prejudice against arrangers comes from two things (in a live band situation), IMO...

Firstly is that many of them ARE anemic compared to the best workstations, which are primarily voiced for live use, and secondly, and probably the most important, is that the SECOND anyone uses any arranger functions in a live setting (at the soundcheck, for instance), the defenses of every single musician that could lose his job to one of these goes up, usually in a hostile way. And who can blame them?

So I make a point of NEVER using my arranger's auto stuff in any live band situation, my G70 LOOKS like a pro piece of gear, it SOUNDS like a pro piece of gear (the piano is from the TOTL FantomX, the organ is from the TOTL VK-8, the rest of the sounds are the cream of Roland's live line), and no-one is the wiser about it's other functions because I NEVER rub their noses in it...

And in over fifteen years of using a Roland arranger for all my live gigs (with everything from local acts, to recording artists, to studio work for national artists with my G70), not one single musician, soundman bandleader, or audience member has ever come up to me and go, derogatively, 'Oh, you are using an ARRANGER? '. In fact no-one has ever come up to me and said much other than 'what are you using? It sounds GREAT!'

I just smile...

Also understand that many who snub arrangers are not aware of the pro models such as the G-70 and others. The arranger 99.5% of the time is known as "that keyboard with speakers". The whole idea of the unit having speakers for years has always been one of the main negative associations with arrangers in the so called pro arena. I've talked to many WS users who never heard of the pro "speakerless" arrangers for the OMB. So many just know the arranger as being the home models with speakers.

And, to be honest, even the speaker-ed TOTL arrangers are so low on anybody's radar that they rarely get recognized...

No, sadly, the TRUE source of most pro's animosity to the arranger (if there is such a thing - as I said, I have NEVER encountered it) is likely the LOW end arrangers. And even those probably get their reputation from the abysmal playing skills of many of their owners rather than the sounds themselves...

You see, it's all well and good to lock yourself away in a bedroom, with a machine that follows your every whim, no matter HOW bad your timing or how bad your ability to even play the chords correctly at the right time, play for a couple of tone deaf and VERY supportive relatives, and then all of a sudden, think that you ARE capable of playing with a live band

Of course, out you go with said low end arranger to sit in with a friend's band, where lo and behold! The guys in the band don't WAIT for you to catch up when you get off the chords, look at you funny when you play a solo utterly out of time with the chords they ARE playing, and then look at you even funnier when you demo the arranger's cheesy sounds and accompaniment AFTER the jam just to show them just how unnecessary they actually ARE....

No... sadly, the arranger has EARNED it's animosity in the musical community. But it isn't pros playing TOTL arrangers that have garnered that hatred (at least not in live bands ). It's your Uncle Eldred, or Aunt Maud, or Dad, bless him and his out of time AND tune bossa nova rendition of New York, New York.

PLAY like a pro, you get treated like a pro. No great guitarist is made fun of if he just blew everyone away with his cheap Peavey... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] Play your ass off, no-one CARES what it is on...

Amen brother!! Diki you have encapsulated it perfectly with this paragraph.

Dennis

Technically they are powerfull arrangers.... But marketing wise they are old stuff...

BUT

Its in people's minds that old stuff in this technicall consumer society can't be as good as the newly released stuff...

You mean those that read product literature and listen to obviously biased so called 'experts'?

Or those with the skill to recognize a great sound when they hear it, and realize that that is more important than the latest 'gotta have' OS feature?

They are welcome to their 'home keyboards'...

There is some pretty sophisticated stuff in even these so-called 'old stuff' arrangers that has STILL yet to be implemented in newer arrangers. And, IMHO, some of these things are ESSENTIAL day to day operations that are almost left as afterthoughts on most of the rest... What's one of the non-playing things you do the MOST? Probably trying out conversion styles, older styles, user styles. What are you the most likely to need to do? Yep... edit them.

Roland make editing styles and SMF's by FAR the easiest in the business... A great sounding arranger, that is a PIG to make third party styles sound good on is of little use unless you ARE content to play the ROM styles forever.

It's the little things that matter...

Anyone that goes with a T3 or a PA2Xpro before they have even TRIED a Roland is missing an opportunity to try a different approach. One with many advantages. Sure, they are a little long in the tooth. But in many areas, the other's haven't caught up to THEM, yet. So maybe they are not THAT old stuff after all...

People tend to trust (and stick with) the opinion of who they think is an "expert" regardless of the actual qualifications. It saves brain cells. After all, if I think that my cousin/father/uncle/friend from school is an expert, having and sharing the same opinion as he does makes me an expert too, right?

Even worse, when the "expert" happens to be ME, there is NO WAY I will change my opinion, especialy if I suspect that your "expert" opinion is what YOU personally think.

Now let's get money (wages) thrown in, and the "expert's opinion" futher cements itself in the minds of people. As said above, who's going to embrace technology that is even remotely threatening his/hers wages? Eric Clapton is not going to have a problem hearing SA guitars, perhaps he will even play along them ... but my run of the mill/weekend job mucisian cousin is going to be horrified of losing potential wages, and make the sign of the cross.

And of course, someone who saw a Casio in the early 80's and noticed the crap sounds and cheesy accompaniments, formed his opinion, and is not going to wake up in 2006 and get to try a Tyros2 or G70. For him accompaniments are cheesy. Period.

I happened to like arrangers since I saw a Panasonic something in early eighties... thought of them as compensation for my (lack of) musical training and ability... still think about them in this way, and I am happy with it. But, I never (almost) seen a review or even advertisement for arrangers when i was buying Keyboard magagine in mid 90's so I could learn about what to buy... I remember Phil Collins and someone else, pictured in an ad in the back cover, carrying a Korg T3 something, and remember thinking "that thing surely is good" but then realised it doesn't have accompaniment, and thought "what am I going to play one finger melody with?" and finally got the Casio, despite some "experts" that said "this is not a professional instrument".

I don't give a damn about what people say, especially if I think they have NO knowledge about what thy are talking about, but I wonder... how many one finger players like me have an expensive, unused T3 in the back of a closet somewhere, because they heard their "expert" uncle/father/whatever and got the "professional keyboard?"

The problem with the acceptance of arranger keyboards in the wider keyboard community is the styles and use of styles.
If the trend continues to have more styles on an arranger, and the styles are more song specific, and the styles requires the player to play less but still sound good then acceptance of arrangers would go further down hill.
Arrangers are becoming more and more like glorified karaoke machines.
If the arranger can make you sound like a CD OTB, then the logical conclusion is it is the machine not the player.

Until persons who use arrangers use arrangers to showcase their individual playing ability and let the manufacturers know that is what they want, then arrangers would keep declining and soon you would not be able to tell the difference between an arranger and an MP3 player.

I had a Roland em2000 which I bought about 8-9 years ago at Sam Ash. I went back after the VA7 was released and they told me that they were no longer carring roland arrangers since they now belong to the CK divison. So that was it for me and Roland, never bought one ever again. I did try the G70 at the Sam Ash in NYC a few months ago. but I didn't like it, it reminded me of the older Roland sound with the winey bass lines. Also I haven't really seen any roland arrangers in GC or SA for over 7 years.

Genesys...,

The styles really aren't the draw-back for potential (fence-crossers), but the "type of styles" found on the arrangers are. I think these new TOTL arrangers sound great, but still NOT ONE that I've heard to date caters to modern styles of music. When I say modern styles I mean ALL the various styles of music and where they are TODAY..., not what they were in 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 80's and even the 90's.

Again.., country isn't what it used to be but at times it seems as if the arranger makers haven't figured this out yet. Rock and blues is even changing, yet the arranger makers haven't gotten that memo yet either. You then touch upon the electronica and well..., that's always a good laugh

The arranger makers have always catered to the older crowd. They IMO have no intention of drawing younger players. Also younger players who are familair with the WS's and what all they can do will see that price difference and RUN THE OTHER WAY.

Another thing to point out guys is that WS's on this forum are so often attributed to just electronica..., and often on this forum they're associated with just rap, hip hip, dance, techno, and so on. That's NOT TRUE at all. These modern WS's can pull off EVERY styles of music you find on an arranger and do it well. They have the sounds for these styles.

The big difference is the WS user is more inclined to make it themselves... If these arrangers started including more modern versions of today's styles of music and if the makers stop charging the price of a used car for one..., I think you'd see more buyers in the area.

That has already declined big time, just the fact that an arranger is "AUTOMATIC MUSIC" has deteriorated the LIVE PLAYERS scene to the point where its almost non existent with the advent of canned music & every way possible to enact it on stage....it will only get worse year by year.

.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-14-2008).]

The question is MARKETING. Roland, Korg, Yamaha, Wersi,Ketron etc does not market to the pro player (whomever or whatever that its). NEVER seen an Arranger advertisement in Keyboard magazine, not even Home Recording , or EM or MIX........

They are usually in HOME DIVISIONS of their respective companies...I only suggested why that might be and will be. MOST pro players play Motifs,Fantoms and M3s by a huge margin. Thats a fact. Why that is can be argued. I would LOVE for arrangers to be all the rage amongst those who earn their living playing around here. I could make a small fortune selling "Arranger lessons."

Playing 61 keys in a band is different. 61 keys are the norm. A few of them in fact. Yes my wife is hired as a pianist and keyboard player who plays using tracks and a harmonizer. She prefers to use both hands to play the keyboard parts rather than just playing it like a "chord organ." Its a different technique. She is very self conscious about being too "karaokeish" It took me months to convince her to use a harmonizer. Her co-hort (who played for Billy Idol during the White Wedding days)would rather play the an M3, Fantom or Motif live in a band situation. More on the fly editing and controlling.

I understand how a bar owner or other can be a little unsettled when paying $200-$300 to someone who markets themselves as a keyboard player, who shows up with a 61 key board. A 76 keyboard may be different and in fact is a lot bigger and looks more like a real keyboard.


Its personal choice, Around here I can tell you no one we know plays an Arranger at any contracted venue or in any band except perhaps private functions. She has made her living for over 30 years playing and has never even discovered arrangers until I brought one home from the store. She loved it but views it as a very very good chord organ.

If it were any different loacally we would be selling more of the Tyros and the Korg PAs series instead of Clavinovas. Even 100 miles away in Guitar Center you won;t find an Arranger on the floor.

But with the new keyboards the lines are becoming blurred with the multi arpeggios available. I can understand the advantage of using an arranger in a band for a few songs using horn sections, But in those cases tracks are easier as well.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-14-2008).]

I understand and said as much. Weddings, nursing homes, private parties.All great "Arranger only" gigs. And a lot less expensive than a band and more interative than a DJ.

But you won't find many if any many long term contracted gig. The difference between using tracks and a single 61 key arranger is huge. You still have 88 (or even 76) keys to use solely as a pianist. There is a huge difference in technique playing an arranger alone vs using tracks or a sequencer..

The club and bar owners used to raise their eyebrows when the sew a Bose System!!! (thank God there are enough of them out there now they consider it a plus.)Perhaps that will change with 61 key arrangers. It would be nice. Who likes lugging an 88 keyboard around? Except a pianist.

I have no axe to grind I SELL this stuff. I would love for every single keyboard player in town to play arrangers. I demo them and many still view them as playing with "one hand cut off". Its a different way of playing. Even though they don't have to split the keyboard. Splitting a 61 key board is pretty handicapping for any player.Even with the octave switch just above the nod wheels (where Yamaha finally put it.

Actually I bought an Arranger because quite the opposite is true......

Well for a start, you must have missed the G70 adverts in Keyboard, EM, and most of the other mags... none so blind as those who WILL NOT see...

Of course, in your situation, I imagine you tend to pay more attention to the lines you actually carry...

And sorry, but once again, I think you miss the point. If your wife showed up with an arranger, and rocked the crowd, the club owner won't give a damn what keyboard she does it on. You say she's currently using tracks and a harmonizer? Do you think for one minute the owner thinks she is actually playing all of that? If she showed up with a 76 note arranger (I agree that to play pianistically, you need more than 61), she could do exactly the same show. Most of them have MP3 players and harmonizers built-in...

I personally think you give far too much credit to the bar owners, They look at the crowd, and they look at the register. Only if both of those are off do they start looking for excuses...

Perhaps you have simply been looking at the wrong arrangers. You want something functionally close to identical to a TOTL WS for live use... try a G70. Yep, not the world's best pure arranger, I'll admit it. But easily enough to get by. But as a live use keyboard, it's actually FAR easier to run live than ANY WS... I have Tritons, Kurzweils, Ensoniq's, and have used Yamaha's, Roland's and a few other exotic things. NOT ONE of them is as easy to dial up on the fly as the G70 is. That bank of faders gives you instant adjustment capability of virtually every aspect of the sound and performance, the action is superior to anything in a 76, and the best all around action (both piano technique AND organ technique) available anywhere. I get nothing but rave reviews for it's sound with everyone I play with. No kidding...

No, it doesn't have an MP3 player... Thank God!

I think these are FAR more karaoke than using SMF's or styles, which CAN be re-ordered and adjusted on the fly. Mp3 is straight ahead karaoke, with no opportunity to shorten of extend depending on the situation. You want you bar manager's eyes to go up? Stop playing at the end of the file, when the floor is packed and people want it not to stop... Currently, there are no MP3 players (short of a full laptop, and how karaoke is THAT?) that can drop markers into the audio file... But SMF's and style play can do this, no problem!

No, I'm sorry, but using tracks and an 88 is MORE karaoke than using an arranger. Your wife is doing a karaoke act, plain and simple. And the club owner doesn't CARE what keyboard she uses. If he don't care about the karaoke tracks, he don't care whether it's an 88 or a 61, that's for sure! Sure, she wants to use BOTH hands. So do I... I go on about it all the time. But the answer isn't to use tracks and play piano over the top. The answer is to use SMF's, or Piano mode on the arranger, and all of a sudden it's YOU that is in control of the show, once again, not the track...

And use a 76 note arranger.

I perform two restaurant jobs a week, both of which are Italian, using a Bose L1 and PSR-3000. The owners at both locations don't have a clue what I'm using to produce the music, and they don't care! I keep the dancefloor packed to capacity, and at the end of the evening the cash register is overflowing. In more than 50 years of being an entertainer I've never had a club owner mention anything at all about my equipment. When I was playing an Ibanez guitar and switched to a Yamaha 12-string, the only person that took notice was ME. As it has been stated so many times in the past, it's not the number of keys--it's the player.

When I switched to an arranger keyboard many, many years ago, and at the time was playing rythm guitar with a 5-piece country band, the keyboard was 61 keys and used primarily as a piano. Everyone in the band loved the sound, and when the drummer died in a car wreck, the keyboard filled the gap. It took a bit of time for some of the guys to get the hang of playing with strict timing, but after a couple weeks everything went along just as smooth as silk.

Amazingly, the band members still get together once in a while for a jam session, and for the most part they all love the aspects of an arranger keyboard. And, I never recall them asking about the number of keys--not once.

Cheers,

Gary

If the G70 was indeed advertising heavily in EM,Keyboard, and or HR it apparently did not work.
Like I said , I would love to see more players who play for a living would use arrangers. My wife is indeed a "pianist" in that regard she has to have weighted keys. Whether a Casio or Roland. Also in that regard she won't use an arranger but will use the tracks. There is another player in town who feels the same. They are "pianists" that play to tracks. I get it now. There's a difference between a keyboard player and a "pianist."

As far as the G70 goes even without all the cute little smily faces, thats pure subjective opinion. One man's trash another's treasure and all that. I'm a Yamaha and Korg guy. I tried the PA2x and preferred the Tyros 3. YMMV. My wife prefers the Roland RD700 over the Yamaha CP300 which I prefer. So be it.

The Yamaha Tyros seems to be the premiere Arranger in the US and sells more arrangers than any other brand. They don't advertise the Tyros in any magazine I subscribe to. I'm guessing they don't feel they have to. They do advertise the hell out of the Motifs in those trade magazines though.

I use an arranger because I am not a schooled string arranger, horn section arranger, drummer, oboe player,lead guitarist. I know nothing about arranging Country songs or Bossanovas It's a tool for me not a live performance instrument.
If I were to use an arranger for live OMB use, The Korg PA2x is in my opinion the best due to its low impedance mike set up and its "sorta" TC Helicon harmonizer and a host of other thiings that relate well to live playing, dual sequencers etc.....

The G70 I know nothing about except when I was looking for them they were not selling on Ebay for even $2000. IF Roland was indeed marketing that unit as claimed...well.... its not working. I had no choice but to take a cue from the market they may not be all that. For me it's all about sounds and support.

I found the Korg extremily lacking in Style support. If I wanted to make my own styles I would just have bought a Motif or real workstation.

I understand people's passion for what THEY choose. I also understand why a "pianist" would not want to take a TOTL Aranger to a gig and use tracks. I live with one.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-14-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-14-2008).]

Just for the record..the G70 also has a low impedance mic input..and it has more adjustments than the Korg..

Also ..the G70 harmonizer is much better than the Korg..It analyzes better and has more capabilities...

At 2 grand..people should jump at a used G70..

Most folks..worry about the OS..and think the G70 is too much board...hence the panic selling...

Players that know better..won't part with a G70..as Diki says..it is the best possible live play keyboard on the market....

Well, one thing you might trust is your wife's opinions!

I have been playing pianos since I was six, and Yamaha's sampled piano's, even some of the CVP series, leave me kind of cold... I prefer the warmth and mid range detail of the Roland's. I do admit that the PA2Xpro's main battle piano is MUCH improved over the PA1's, but there's still room for improvement. Take a listen to that new four-way for the M3 Upgraded, and tell me I'm wrong..

But yes, I believe you have got it... there is a HUGE difference between a 'pianist' and a keyboard player. And with what works best for them. For the trained pro piano player, nothing less than a wooden 88 will do (have your wife play the new RD700G or FantomG8 and ask her what she thinks of the new 'ivory feel' key-tops).

I have always kept my piano chops up as much as I can (have a nice upright at home, and a Steinway at the studio), but have primarily made my living as a live 'keyboard' player. In the past, this meant a stack of different keyboards on three sides, but I must confess I'm pretty happy with just the one 76 now. Were I to be on the road and have a road crew again, I MIGHT add a Nord Electro or Stage to the mix, but possibly not... So far, the G70 has handled everything I can throw at it.

The trouble with criticizing opinion is that you need a balanced point yourself. If you HAVEN'T played a G70 simply because you were uncertain about it's resale value, you are not giving yourself enough credit... What's the point of resale value, if you don't need to re-sell it! There are many here that will acknowledge many of the points I've made (especially it not being necessarily the best pure arranger ).

But go to Purgatory Creek, listen to all the arranger pianos. The G70 is identical to the FantomX. If you like bright, brittle pianos, Yamaha deliver in spades. But if you want warmth, detail, and dynamic range, it's hard to find anything short of a software piano to beat the G70 (and few, IMO, of them even achieve that!). Ask anyone who HAS played a G70 what they think of the action... Ask them what they think of the organ sim, ask them what they think of the drums...

I am pretty impressed with the T3 overall, but still unable to pull the trigger because of the 61. I hate having a good piano (that one, although I haven't heard the T3 doing the Purgatory Creek file, yet, sounds MUCH improved) and no decent keybed to play it on!

I have always said I do not use the arranger as many here do. I use it, like you, to draft composition and arranging ideas, I use it live as a flexible WS with all live bands, and a combination SMF or arranger play keyboard for smaller outfits. Finding something great at ALL of those tasks proved too much for most other keyboards. It's a pretty stringent set of needs. I have access to most of the TOTL WS's, have a K2500, Tritons, etc., and the studio has more Kurzweils and MotifES's, etc..

I wouldn't trade any of them for my G70, and I have tried everything, short of a T3 (and that gets discarded for the 61).

I like the PA2Xpro's new OS, and I think they are on the right track, but have still a ways to go, but ease of live use as a WS goes to the G70 (IMO ). But for the pro who is both a 'keyboard player' AND a 'pianist', the list of acceptable arrangers gets VERY short.

Very short indeed...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-14-2008).]

This has been a really good thread. I have to say that I'm very thankful that more people don't use arrangers. It helps keep the market wide open for me.

I identify with all you pianists out there. I played top venues such as Miami Beach, the Caribbean, ect. for many years and until the mid 90's was still lugging a multiple board rig around. And then I discovered the arranger. All I could say was wow. Here in one box were all the things I was trying to accomplish by using a drum programmer, board for bass, a piano, and a synth. And so I played Rolands for several years. With 76 keys, I still felt like a player and every night this board blew me away. When I made the switch to 61 keys a couple of years ago, there was definitely an adjustment to be made. I switched because of the weight factor. The Tyros I'm playing now only weighs 27 lbs and I'm getting too damned old to lift much more all day long. Since I am a trained pianist, I missed the extra keys. What I did to compensate was learn how to use the little octave button. I've gotten real good at hitting it when I need that extra octave. It has become a fun challenge for me to make this little 61 note board sound like a whole kick ass orchestra. And no, the styles don't do that on their own, but in the hands of a player, that's another story. Long live arrangers!

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

I'll admit I did not try one and went soley on the "market" sentiment. Early this year I went looking for a G70 and saw them not selling on Ebay for as low as $1800 used and $2000 refurbished. While used T2s were selling for over $2500 and the PA2x was perpetually back ordered. I waited teo months for mine. So I knew the Yamaha but liked the ton of features (on paper) of the Korg. The PA50 manual is 4x thicker than the T3!!!!! LOL

I was happy with the Korg and felt it was and is a great unit especially for live OMB use. I would buy a PA800 in a fire sale in a minute. But the PA2x had far too many features I found out I would never use.XLR Mike inputs, harmonizer,dual sequencers/Mp3 players. I was disappointed in the button and slider build quality using the same buttons and sliders for the past 10 years, When the T3 became more than a rumor I decided to sell the PA2x just in case the T3 changed the game for all Arrangers. Which I don't believe it did, However for my needs its perfect and the 3rd party support second to none as well as some of the voices.

I believe its far more than a simple T2 upgrade in many areas not the least being the capability to add voice packs and the new EFX engine. I do not like the IDE drive and (dated DIMM memory) use and may have to stock a few while I can get them.

Plus you have to remember I paid less than a new PA800 for my T3 which makes it all the sweeter.

I trust her opinions but sound is subjective, Some people would rather play a Yamaha acoustic than a Steinway BECAUSE it cuts through a mix being brighter out of the box.IN fact she prefers the Yamaha acoustic to all.

She prefers the Roland digital though. But she is on her third generation and after one hears a certain sound for so long, it becomes the sound others are judged by. She can hardly play the acoustic Yamaha we have because she is so accustomed to PERFECT tuning pitch on the digitals. Im not that sophisticated. I'm the hack player who is self taught. I could not tell the difference between keytops....but I can tell the difference between keyboard touch and depth of travel etc,

You are right about my ignorance regarding the Roland. I was simply scared off the Roland because of public sentiment presented by the value assigned to different keyboards in a public market forum. I only use the keys on the RD700 when Im playing piano parts, Otherwise the T3 is fine.

Arrangers are a boon to me because I was recording each part separately and using DRUM LOOPS, GUITAR LOOPS AND EVEN hORN LOOPS
I made my own strumming guitar loops. Garritan Strings..on and on.... As a live performer I was contracted with a live bands and hated using tracks because I felt they took the spontaneity away from the performance. I would rather have two keyboard players. One to carry the horns and orchestration, The other for Piano and organ. I met my wife in one of the bands I was contracted to perform with.

The Only way I could do possibly get hired as a OMB act is with an Arranger. I'm not good enough a player to show up with 88 keys and a few drum tracks and play for four hours, playing left hand Bass on some.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-14-2008).]

Nope, nope, nope.
The TC unit sounds better

NO no No...The TC Helicon Harmony M sounds better than all of them. According to TC Helicon the unit in the Korg is not quite the same TC Helicon as you can buy today, I don;t know when the PA800 was first designed but the latest TC stuff is fourth generation and is more advanced than whats on the PA2x,

4th Generation harmony includes the following:

Many of the advancements are in the “humanization” of the harmony voices. We’ve added new parameters and broken out former group settings into individual voice settings:

Two voice 4th generation intelligent harmony
- Separate Double effect using overdub algorithm
- Tone switch engages adaptive Live Engineer Effects
- 6 factory reverb/delay combinations for rich vocals
- 10 presets each with A/B location
- Harmony Arrangement algorithm listens to MIDI input and voice to follow your music
- Flexible harmony voicing including unique bass setting
- Includes classic ”Notes” and ”Chord” harmony control modes
- 1⁄4” TRS mic level I/O in stereo or mono
- Clean, studio quality mic preamp with phantom power
- MIDI input
- Input for optional footswitch allows Harmony-M placement on keyboard


Technical Specifications

Inputs
- Mic Connector: Balanced XLR, Input Impedance 1kOhm
- Mic Input Sensitivity @ 0dBFS -44dBu to +2dBu
- Mic Input Sensitivity @ 12dB headroom -56dBu to -10dBu
- EIN -126dBu @ max. mic amp gain, Rg = 150 Ohm
- MIDI In Connector: Standard 5 pin DIN
- Footswitch In: 1/4” 3 conductor phone jack
- Power Input: 12 VDC 300 mA, tip negative

Analog Outputs
- Main Output Connectors: Balanced TRS 1/4” jacks
- Output Impedance: 40 Ohm
- Output Level: +14 dBu @ 0dBFS

Input to Output Analog Audio Performance

Dynamic Range, Mic. @ Min gain >108dB, 20 Hz - 20kHz *A-weighted
Dynamic Range, Mic. @ -18dBu sensitivity > 104dB, 20hz - 20kHz*
THD+ Noise, Mic. @ Min gain <-90dB
Frequency Response, max gain -1.5dB @ 40 Hz, +0/-0.3 dB (200Hz to 20 kHz)

Conversion Characteristics
Sample Rate 48 kHz, Converter AKM AK4620B
AD / DA Conversion 24 bit, 128x oversampling bitstream

Well worth $300.
Be assured those specs are not in the Korg PA2x and not even close in the Yamaha. The Yamaha is worse.

The Guitar harmonizer is amazing as well.

Every company for in their top end arrangers make a very professional instrument lacking of coursesome wave rom sounds found in their "pro boards" And also lack of 88 key models so were dammed to use an 88 weighted key controller to drive the profesional sounds available. Real time one man bad style sequencer buttons placed thoughtfully and good one man band music stlyes is our things. Of course i'm waiting for an arranger with real time synth controllers in depth editable sythesis ever more arranger control buttons that don't make noise when you click them Like psr9000 (Quiet) to tyros (lighted and clicky) ever try recording all at once and hear the clicking. Vocal harmonizers for me are just there for fun but i still expect their quality to advance. They can give you some ideas for a harmony bu nothing even comes close to real singing. but they have great meat and potatoes sound to make pro music as a pro. But none compare in sound to the korg oasys or poland phantom or yamaha motif. I think this sucks. But i still love my arranger boards.

I've never played anything other than a 61-note board in over twenty years gigging and never encountered this.

In any case, I'm ex-organ, rather than ex-piano and would rather have an extra octave at my feet rather than at my fingers. ;-)

Come on over...and we can A..B.. them..Bring your PA800..my G70 is too heavy to haul to your house..

You didn't do this while Donny had his PA800, Fran?

To return to some points above, it kind of gets my goat when guys that either have never learned to play piano, or simply use a right hand piano sound on an arranger (because that's all they ever learned on) chime in to point out how unnecessary a 76 is. But I'm afraid that's rather like a strict pianist chiming in here, telling everyone how unnecessary the entire accompaniment section is!

Just because YOU don't play the piano means that others shouldn't, either? Or that their legitimate concerns of of no real value?

I guess that, if I don't ever play organ sounds, arrangers should NOT have organ drawbars on them? I thought the idea is to make these things as versatile as possible. If a 76 arranger can be made as well built as a T3, and weighs LESS (E60), why wouldn't everyone need it (at least by their favorite manufacturer)..?