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#244767 - 10/14/08 05:57 PM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Well, one thing you might trust is your wife's opinions!

I have been playing pianos since I was six, and Yamaha's sampled piano's, even some of the CVP series, leave me kind of cold... I prefer the warmth and mid range detail of the Roland's. I do admit that the PA2Xpro's main battle piano is MUCH improved over the PA1's, but there's still room for improvement. Take a listen to that new four-way for the M3 Upgraded, and tell me I'm wrong..

But yes, I believe you have got it... there is a HUGE difference between a 'pianist' and a keyboard player. And with what works best for them. For the trained pro piano player, nothing less than a wooden 88 will do (have your wife play the new RD700G or FantomG8 and ask her what she thinks of the new 'ivory feel' key-tops).

I have always kept my piano chops up as much as I can (have a nice upright at home, and a Steinway at the studio), but have primarily made my living as a live 'keyboard' player. In the past, this meant a stack of different keyboards on three sides, but I must confess I'm pretty happy with just the one 76 now. Were I to be on the road and have a road crew again, I MIGHT add a Nord Electro or Stage to the mix, but possibly not... So far, the G70 has handled everything I can throw at it.

The trouble with criticizing opinion is that you need a balanced point yourself. If you HAVEN'T played a G70 simply because you were uncertain about it's resale value, you are not giving yourself enough credit... What's the point of resale value, if you don't need to re-sell it! There are many here that will acknowledge many of the points I've made (especially it not being necessarily the best pure arranger ).

But go to Purgatory Creek, listen to all the arranger pianos. The G70 is identical to the FantomX. If you like bright, brittle pianos, Yamaha deliver in spades. But if you want warmth, detail, and dynamic range, it's hard to find anything short of a software piano to beat the G70 (and few, IMO, of them even achieve that!). Ask anyone who HAS played a G70 what they think of the action... Ask them what they think of the organ sim, ask them what they think of the drums...

I am pretty impressed with the T3 overall, but still unable to pull the trigger because of the 61. I hate having a good piano (that one, although I haven't heard the T3 doing the Purgatory Creek file, yet, sounds MUCH improved) and no decent keybed to play it on!

I have always said I do not use the arranger as many here do. I use it, like you, to draft composition and arranging ideas, I use it live as a flexible WS with all live bands, and a combination SMF or arranger play keyboard for smaller outfits. Finding something great at ALL of those tasks proved too much for most other keyboards. It's a pretty stringent set of needs. I have access to most of the TOTL WS's, have a K2500, Tritons, etc., and the studio has more Kurzweils and MotifES's, etc..

I wouldn't trade any of them for my G70, and I have tried everything, short of a T3 (and that gets discarded for the 61).

I like the PA2Xpro's new OS, and I think they are on the right track, but have still a ways to go, but ease of live use as a WS goes to the G70 (IMO ). But for the pro who is both a 'keyboard player' AND a 'pianist', the list of acceptable arrangers gets VERY short.

Very short indeed...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-14-2008).]
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#244768 - 10/14/08 06:57 PM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Songman55 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 892
Loc: Baltimore, MD USA
This has been a really good thread. I have to say that I'm very thankful that more people don't use arrangers. It helps keep the market wide open for me.

I identify with all you pianists out there. I played top venues such as Miami Beach, the Caribbean, ect. for many years and until the mid 90's was still lugging a multiple board rig around. And then I discovered the arranger. All I could say was wow. Here in one box were all the things I was trying to accomplish by using a drum programmer, board for bass, a piano, and a synth. And so I played Rolands for several years. With 76 keys, I still felt like a player and every night this board blew me away. When I made the switch to 61 keys a couple of years ago, there was definitely an adjustment to be made. I switched because of the weight factor. The Tyros I'm playing now only weighs 27 lbs and I'm getting too damned old to lift much more all day long. Since I am a trained pianist, I missed the extra keys. What I did to compensate was learn how to use the little octave button. I've gotten real good at hitting it when I need that extra octave. It has become a fun challenge for me to make this little 61 note board sound like a whole kick ass orchestra. And no, the styles don't do that on their own, but in the hands of a player, that's another story. Long live arrangers!

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala
_________________________
PSR S950, PSR S900, Roland RD 700, Yamaha C3 6'Grand, Sennheiser E 935 mic, several recording mics including a Neuman U 87, Bose L1 Compact, Roland VS 2480 24 Track Recorder
Joe Ayala

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#244769 - 10/14/08 08:15 PM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Just for the record..the G70 also has a low impedance mic input..and it has more adjustments than the Korg..

Also ..the G70 harmonizer is much better than the Korg..It analyzes better and has more capabilities...

At 2 grand..people should jump at a used G70..

Most folks..worry about the OS..and think the G70 is too much board...hence the panic selling...

Players that know better..won't part with a G70..as Diki says..it is the best possible live play keyboard on the market....


I'll admit I did not try one and went soley on the "market" sentiment. Early this year I went looking for a G70 and saw them not selling on Ebay for as low as $1800 used and $2000 refurbished. While used T2s were selling for over $2500 and the PA2x was perpetually back ordered. I waited teo months for mine. So I knew the Yamaha but liked the ton of features (on paper) of the Korg. The PA50 manual is 4x thicker than the T3!!!!! LOL

I was happy with the Korg and felt it was and is a great unit especially for live OMB use. I would buy a PA800 in a fire sale in a minute. But the PA2x had far too many features I found out I would never use.XLR Mike inputs, harmonizer,dual sequencers/Mp3 players. I was disappointed in the button and slider build quality using the same buttons and sliders for the past 10 years, When the T3 became more than a rumor I decided to sell the PA2x just in case the T3 changed the game for all Arrangers. Which I don't believe it did, However for my needs its perfect and the 3rd party support second to none as well as some of the voices.

I believe its far more than a simple T2 upgrade in many areas not the least being the capability to add voice packs and the new EFX engine. I do not like the IDE drive and (dated DIMM memory) use and may have to stock a few while I can get them.

Plus you have to remember I paid less than a new PA800 for my T3 which makes it all the sweeter.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#244770 - 10/14/08 08:43 PM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Well, one thing you might trust is your wife's opinions!

I have been playing pianos since I was six, and Yamaha's sampled piano's, even some of the CVP series, leave me kind of cold... I prefer the warmth and mid range detail of the Roland's. I do admit that the PA2Xpro's main battle piano is MUCH improved over the PA1's, but there's still room for improvement. Take a listen to that new four-way for the M3 Upgraded, and tell me I'm wrong..

But yes, I believe you have got it... there is a HUGE difference between a 'pianist' and a keyboard player. And with what works best for them. For the trained pro piano player, nothing less than a wooden 88 will do (have your wife play the new RD700G or FantomG8 and ask her what she thinks of the new 'ivory feel' key-tops).

I have always kept my piano chops up as much as I can (have a nice upright at home, and a Steinway at the studio), but have primarily made my living as a live 'keyboard' player. In the past, this meant a stack of different keyboards on three sides, but I must confess I'm pretty happy with just the one 76 now. Were I to be on the road and have a road crew again, I MIGHT add a Nord Electro or Stage to the mix, but possibly not... So far, the G70 has handled everything I can throw at it.

The trouble with criticizing opinion is that you need a balanced point yourself. If you HAVEN'T played a G70 simply because you were uncertain about it's resale value, you are not giving yourself enough credit... What's the point of resale value, if you don't need to re-sell it! There are many here that will acknowledge many of the points I've made (especially it not being necessarily the best pure arranger ).

But go to Purgatory Creek, listen to all the arranger pianos. The G70 is identical to the FantomX. If you like bright, brittle pianos, Yamaha deliver in spades. But if you want warmth, detail, and dynamic range, it's hard to find anything short of a software piano to beat the G70 (and few, IMO, of them even achieve that!). Ask anyone who HAS played a G70 what they think of the action... Ask them what they think of the organ sim, ask them what they think of the drums...

I am pretty impressed with the T3 overall, but still unable to pull the trigger because of the 61. I hate having a good piano (that one, although I haven't heard the T3 doing the Purgatory Creek file, yet, sounds MUCH improved) and no decent keybed to play it on!

I have always said I do not use the arranger as many here do. I use it, like you, to draft composition and arranging ideas, I use it live as a flexible WS with all live bands, and a combination SMF or arranger play keyboard for smaller outfits. Finding something great at ALL of those tasks proved too much for most other keyboards. It's a pretty stringent set of needs. I have access to most of the TOTL WS's, have a K2500, Tritons, etc., and the studio has more Kurzweils and MotifES's, etc..

I wouldn't trade any of them for my G70, and I have tried everything, short of a T3 (and that gets discarded for the 61).

I like the PA2Xpro's new OS, and I think they are on the right track, but have still a ways to go, but ease of live use as a WS goes to the G70 (IMO ). But for the pro who is both a 'keyboard player' AND a 'pianist', the list of acceptable arrangers gets VERY short.

Very short indeed...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-14-2008).]


I trust her opinions but sound is subjective, Some people would rather play a Yamaha acoustic than a Steinway BECAUSE it cuts through a mix being brighter out of the box.IN fact she prefers the Yamaha acoustic to all.

She prefers the Roland digital though. But she is on her third generation and after one hears a certain sound for so long, it becomes the sound others are judged by. She can hardly play the acoustic Yamaha we have because she is so accustomed to PERFECT tuning pitch on the digitals. Im not that sophisticated. I'm the hack player who is self taught. I could not tell the difference between keytops....but I can tell the difference between keyboard touch and depth of travel etc,

You are right about my ignorance regarding the Roland. I was simply scared off the Roland because of public sentiment presented by the value assigned to different keyboards in a public market forum. I only use the keys on the RD700 when Im playing piano parts, Otherwise the T3 is fine.

Arrangers are a boon to me because I was recording each part separately and using DRUM LOOPS, GUITAR LOOPS AND EVEN hORN LOOPS
I made my own strumming guitar loops. Garritan Strings..on and on.... As a live performer I was contracted with a live bands and hated using tracks because I felt they took the spontaneity away from the performance. I would rather have two keyboard players. One to carry the horns and orchestration, The other for Piano and organ. I met my wife in one of the bands I was contracted to perform with.

The Only way I could do possibly get hired as a OMB act is with an Arranger. I'm not good enough a player to show up with 88 keys and a few drum tracks and play for four hours, playing left hand Bass on some.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-14-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#244771 - 10/15/08 09:26 PM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
G70 harmonizer is much better than the Korg..


Nope, nope, nope.
The TC unit sounds better
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No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info

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#244772 - 10/15/08 10:16 PM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
NO no No...The TC Helicon Harmony M sounds better than all of them. According to TC Helicon the unit in the Korg is not quite the same TC Helicon as you can buy today, I don;t know when the PA800 was first designed but the latest TC stuff is fourth generation and is more advanced than whats on the PA2x,

4th Generation harmony includes the following:

Many of the advancements are in the “humanization” of the harmony voices. We’ve added new parameters and broken out former group settings into individual voice settings:

Two voice 4th generation intelligent harmony
- Separate Double effect using overdub algorithm
- Tone switch engages adaptive Live Engineer Effects
- 6 factory reverb/delay combinations for rich vocals
- 10 presets each with A/B location
- Harmony Arrangement algorithm listens to MIDI input and voice to follow your music
- Flexible harmony voicing including unique bass setting
- Includes classic ”Notes” and ”Chord” harmony control modes
- 1⁄4” TRS mic level I/O in stereo or mono
- Clean, studio quality mic preamp with phantom power
- MIDI input
- Input for optional footswitch allows Harmony-M placement on keyboard


Technical Specifications

Inputs
- Mic Connector: Balanced XLR, Input Impedance 1kOhm
- Mic Input Sensitivity @ 0dBFS -44dBu to +2dBu
- Mic Input Sensitivity @ 12dB headroom -56dBu to -10dBu
- EIN -126dBu @ max. mic amp gain, Rg = 150 Ohm
- MIDI In Connector: Standard 5 pin DIN
- Footswitch In: 1/4” 3 conductor phone jack
- Power Input: 12 VDC 300 mA, tip negative

Analog Outputs
- Main Output Connectors: Balanced TRS 1/4” jacks
- Output Impedance: 40 Ohm
- Output Level: +14 dBu @ 0dBFS

Input to Output Analog Audio Performance

Dynamic Range, Mic. @ Min gain >108dB, 20 Hz - 20kHz *A-weighted
Dynamic Range, Mic. @ -18dBu sensitivity > 104dB, 20hz - 20kHz*
THD+ Noise, Mic. @ Min gain <-90dB
Frequency Response, max gain -1.5dB @ 40 Hz, +0/-0.3 dB (200Hz to 20 kHz)

Conversion Characteristics
Sample Rate 48 kHz, Converter AKM AK4620B
AD / DA Conversion 24 bit, 128x oversampling bitstream

Well worth $300.
Be assured those specs are not in the Korg PA2x and not even close in the Yamaha. The Yamaha is worse.

The Guitar harmonizer is amazing as well.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#244773 - 10/18/08 01:27 AM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
robbiekeys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 8
Loc: san jose, ca, usa
Every company for in their top end arrangers make a very professional instrument lacking of coursesome wave rom sounds found in their "pro boards" And also lack of 88 key models so were dammed to use an 88 weighted key controller to drive the profesional sounds available. Real time one man bad style sequencer buttons placed thoughtfully and good one man band music stlyes is our things. Of course i'm waiting for an arranger with real time synth controllers in depth editable sythesis ever more arranger control buttons that don't make noise when you click them Like psr9000 (Quiet) to tyros (lighted and clicky) ever try recording all at once and hear the clicking. Vocal harmonizers for me are just there for fun but i still expect their quality to advance. They can give you some ideas for a harmony bu nothing even comes close to real singing. but they have great meat and potatoes sound to make pro music as a pro. But none compare in sound to the korg oasys or poland phantom or yamaha motif. I think this sucks. But i still love my arranger boards.

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#244774 - 10/18/08 08:25 AM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
I understand how a bar owner or other can be a little unsettled when paying $200-$300 to someone who markets themselves as a keyboard player, who shows up with a 61 key board. A 76 keyboard may be different and in fact is a lot bigger and looks more like a real keyboard.


I've never played anything other than a 61-note board in over twenty years gigging and never encountered this.

In any case, I'm ex-organ, rather than ex-piano and would rather have an extra octave at my feet rather than at my fingers. ;-)

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#244775 - 10/18/08 10:07 AM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Nope, nope, nope.
The TC unit sounds better



Come on over...and we can A..B.. them..Bring your PA800..my G70 is too heavy to haul to your house..
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#244776 - 10/18/08 02:25 PM Re: Why won't Roland market better?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
You didn't do this while Donny had his PA800, Fran?

To return to some points above, it kind of gets my goat when guys that either have never learned to play piano, or simply use a right hand piano sound on an arranger (because that's all they ever learned on) chime in to point out how unnecessary a 76 is. But I'm afraid that's rather like a strict pianist chiming in here, telling everyone how unnecessary the entire accompaniment section is!

Just because YOU don't play the piano means that others shouldn't, either? Or that their legitimate concerns of of no real value?

I guess that, if I don't ever play organ sounds, arrangers should NOT have organ drawbars on them? I thought the idea is to make these things as versatile as possible. If a 76 arranger can be made as well built as a T3, and weighs LESS (E60), why wouldn't everyone need it (at least by their favorite manufacturer)..?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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