Genesys...,

The styles really aren't the draw-back for potential (fence-crossers), but the "type of styles" found on the arrangers are. I think these new TOTL arrangers sound great, but still NOT ONE that I've heard to date caters to modern styles of music. When I say modern styles I mean ALL the various styles of music and where they are TODAY..., not what they were in 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 80's and even the 90's.

Again.., country isn't what it used to be but at times it seems as if the arranger makers haven't figured this out yet. Rock and blues is even changing, yet the arranger makers haven't gotten that memo yet either. You then touch upon the electronica and well..., that's always a good laugh

The arranger makers have always catered to the older crowd. They IMO have no intention of drawing younger players. Also younger players who are familair with the WS's and what all they can do will see that price difference and RUN THE OTHER WAY.

Another thing to point out guys is that WS's on this forum are so often attributed to just electronica..., and often on this forum they're associated with just rap, hip hip, dance, techno, and so on. That's NOT TRUE at all. These modern WS's can pull off EVERY styles of music you find on an arranger and do it well. They have the sounds for these styles.

The big difference is the WS user is more inclined to make it themselves... If these arrangers started including more modern versions of today's styles of music and if the makers stop charging the price of a used car for one..., I think you'd see more buyers in the area.

That has already declined big time, just the fact that an arranger is "AUTOMATIC MUSIC" has deteriorated the LIVE PLAYERS scene to the point where its almost non existent with the advent of canned music & every way possible to enact it on stage....it will only get worse year by year.

.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-14-2008).]

The question is MARKETING. Roland, Korg, Yamaha, Wersi,Ketron etc does not market to the pro player (whomever or whatever that its). NEVER seen an Arranger advertisement in Keyboard magazine, not even Home Recording , or EM or MIX........

They are usually in HOME DIVISIONS of their respective companies...I only suggested why that might be and will be. MOST pro players play Motifs,Fantoms and M3s by a huge margin. Thats a fact. Why that is can be argued. I would LOVE for arrangers to be all the rage amongst those who earn their living playing around here. I could make a small fortune selling "Arranger lessons."

Playing 61 keys in a band is different. 61 keys are the norm. A few of them in fact. Yes my wife is hired as a pianist and keyboard player who plays using tracks and a harmonizer. She prefers to use both hands to play the keyboard parts rather than just playing it like a "chord organ." Its a different technique. She is very self conscious about being too "karaokeish" It took me months to convince her to use a harmonizer. Her co-hort (who played for Billy Idol during the White Wedding days)would rather play the an M3, Fantom or Motif live in a band situation. More on the fly editing and controlling.

I understand how a bar owner or other can be a little unsettled when paying $200-$300 to someone who markets themselves as a keyboard player, who shows up with a 61 key board. A 76 keyboard may be different and in fact is a lot bigger and looks more like a real keyboard.


Its personal choice, Around here I can tell you no one we know plays an Arranger at any contracted venue or in any band except perhaps private functions. She has made her living for over 30 years playing and has never even discovered arrangers until I brought one home from the store. She loved it but views it as a very very good chord organ.

If it were any different loacally we would be selling more of the Tyros and the Korg PAs series instead of Clavinovas. Even 100 miles away in Guitar Center you won;t find an Arranger on the floor.

But with the new keyboards the lines are becoming blurred with the multi arpeggios available. I can understand the advantage of using an arranger in a band for a few songs using horn sections, But in those cases tracks are easier as well.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-14-2008).]

I understand and said as much. Weddings, nursing homes, private parties.All great "Arranger only" gigs. And a lot less expensive than a band and more interative than a DJ.

But you won't find many if any many long term contracted gig. The difference between using tracks and a single 61 key arranger is huge. You still have 88 (or even 76) keys to use solely as a pianist. There is a huge difference in technique playing an arranger alone vs using tracks or a sequencer..

The club and bar owners used to raise their eyebrows when the sew a Bose System!!! (thank God there are enough of them out there now they consider it a plus.)Perhaps that will change with 61 key arrangers. It would be nice. Who likes lugging an 88 keyboard around? Except a pianist.

I have no axe to grind I SELL this stuff. I would love for every single keyboard player in town to play arrangers. I demo them and many still view them as playing with "one hand cut off". Its a different way of playing. Even though they don't have to split the keyboard. Splitting a 61 key board is pretty handicapping for any player.Even with the octave switch just above the nod wheels (where Yamaha finally put it.

Actually I bought an Arranger because quite the opposite is true......

Well for a start, you must have missed the G70 adverts in Keyboard, EM, and most of the other mags... none so blind as those who WILL NOT see...

Of course, in your situation, I imagine you tend to pay more attention to the lines you actually carry...

And sorry, but once again, I think you miss the point. If your wife showed up with an arranger, and rocked the crowd, the club owner won't give a damn what keyboard she does it on. You say she's currently using tracks and a harmonizer? Do you think for one minute the owner thinks she is actually playing all of that? If she showed up with a 76 note arranger (I agree that to play pianistically, you need more than 61), she could do exactly the same show. Most of them have MP3 players and harmonizers built-in...

I personally think you give far too much credit to the bar owners, They look at the crowd, and they look at the register. Only if both of those are off do they start looking for excuses...

Perhaps you have simply been looking at the wrong arrangers. You want something functionally close to identical to a TOTL WS for live use... try a G70. Yep, not the world's best pure arranger, I'll admit it. But easily enough to get by. But as a live use keyboard, it's actually FAR easier to run live than ANY WS... I have Tritons, Kurzweils, Ensoniq's, and have used Yamaha's, Roland's and a few other exotic things. NOT ONE of them is as easy to dial up on the fly as the G70 is. That bank of faders gives you instant adjustment capability of virtually every aspect of the sound and performance, the action is superior to anything in a 76, and the best all around action (both piano technique AND organ technique) available anywhere. I get nothing but rave reviews for it's sound with everyone I play with. No kidding...

No, it doesn't have an MP3 player... Thank God!

I think these are FAR more karaoke than using SMF's or styles, which CAN be re-ordered and adjusted on the fly. Mp3 is straight ahead karaoke, with no opportunity to shorten of extend depending on the situation. You want you bar manager's eyes to go up? Stop playing at the end of the file, when the floor is packed and people want it not to stop... Currently, there are no MP3 players (short of a full laptop, and how karaoke is THAT?) that can drop markers into the audio file... But SMF's and style play can do this, no problem!

No, I'm sorry, but using tracks and an 88 is MORE karaoke than using an arranger. Your wife is doing a karaoke act, plain and simple. And the club owner doesn't CARE what keyboard she uses. If he don't care about the karaoke tracks, he don't care whether it's an 88 or a 61, that's for sure! Sure, she wants to use BOTH hands. So do I... I go on about it all the time. But the answer isn't to use tracks and play piano over the top. The answer is to use SMF's, or Piano mode on the arranger, and all of a sudden it's YOU that is in control of the show, once again, not the track...

And use a 76 note arranger.

I perform two restaurant jobs a week, both of which are Italian, using a Bose L1 and PSR-3000. The owners at both locations don't have a clue what I'm using to produce the music, and they don't care! I keep the dancefloor packed to capacity, and at the end of the evening the cash register is overflowing. In more than 50 years of being an entertainer I've never had a club owner mention anything at all about my equipment. When I was playing an Ibanez guitar and switched to a Yamaha 12-string, the only person that took notice was ME. As it has been stated so many times in the past, it's not the number of keys--it's the player.

When I switched to an arranger keyboard many, many years ago, and at the time was playing rythm guitar with a 5-piece country band, the keyboard was 61 keys and used primarily as a piano. Everyone in the band loved the sound, and when the drummer died in a car wreck, the keyboard filled the gap. It took a bit of time for some of the guys to get the hang of playing with strict timing, but after a couple weeks everything went along just as smooth as silk.

Amazingly, the band members still get together once in a while for a jam session, and for the most part they all love the aspects of an arranger keyboard. And, I never recall them asking about the number of keys--not once.

Cheers,

Gary

If the G70 was indeed advertising heavily in EM,Keyboard, and or HR it apparently did not work.
Like I said , I would love to see more players who play for a living would use arrangers. My wife is indeed a "pianist" in that regard she has to have weighted keys. Whether a Casio or Roland. Also in that regard she won't use an arranger but will use the tracks. There is another player in town who feels the same. They are "pianists" that play to tracks. I get it now. There's a difference between a keyboard player and a "pianist."

As far as the G70 goes even without all the cute little smily faces, thats pure subjective opinion. One man's trash another's treasure and all that. I'm a Yamaha and Korg guy. I tried the PA2x and preferred the Tyros 3. YMMV. My wife prefers the Roland RD700 over the Yamaha CP300 which I prefer. So be it.

The Yamaha Tyros seems to be the premiere Arranger in the US and sells more arrangers than any other brand. They don't advertise the Tyros in any magazine I subscribe to. I'm guessing they don't feel they have to. They do advertise the hell out of the Motifs in those trade magazines though.

I use an arranger because I am not a schooled string arranger, horn section arranger, drummer, oboe player,lead guitarist. I know nothing about arranging Country songs or Bossanovas It's a tool for me not a live performance instrument.
If I were to use an arranger for live OMB use, The Korg PA2x is in my opinion the best due to its low impedance mike set up and its "sorta" TC Helicon harmonizer and a host of other thiings that relate well to live playing, dual sequencers etc.....

The G70 I know nothing about except when I was looking for them they were not selling on Ebay for even $2000. IF Roland was indeed marketing that unit as claimed...well.... its not working. I had no choice but to take a cue from the market they may not be all that. For me it's all about sounds and support.

I found the Korg extremily lacking in Style support. If I wanted to make my own styles I would just have bought a Motif or real workstation.

I understand people's passion for what THEY choose. I also understand why a "pianist" would not want to take a TOTL Aranger to a gig and use tracks. I live with one.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-14-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-14-2008).]

Just for the record..the G70 also has a low impedance mic input..and it has more adjustments than the Korg..

Also ..the G70 harmonizer is much better than the Korg..It analyzes better and has more capabilities...

At 2 grand..people should jump at a used G70..

Most folks..worry about the OS..and think the G70 is too much board...hence the panic selling...

Players that know better..won't part with a G70..as Diki says..it is the best possible live play keyboard on the market....