so i call Guitar Center and Sam Ash in the NY/NJ area, and ask for keyboard dept.

i then ask rep: do you have the Tyros 3 on the floor?

rep says? Tyros..Tyros...let me see.. That's a Korg right?

you kidding? why are the people working @ these stores so ignorant and clueless?

i remember back in the days, not only did they know the makes, models, etc, they new how to demo stuff, they knew how to play the stuff, they knew the differences amongst the instruments, they knew how to edit/program, etc,

nowadays it seems like they're last job was stockboy at the local A&P, ShopRite,

how sad...

For what it's worth, I've noticed that Guitar Center doesn't even list the Tyros 3 on their web site, unlike the other big online retailers who were listing it for pre-sale before they were available. Makes me think they won't have one in the local store soon. Unfortunately Guitar Center is the only place I've found in Phoenix that would possibly have one. I had hoped to at least see one before ordering it but gave up on that idea.

I think you need to look at the target market of these stores. These stores cater to the 15 to 30 age group of rock and rollers. You can tell somewhat by looking at the age of the sales staff. How many are over 30?

How many under 30s are interested in arrangers? The sales staff at the Guitar Center in Grand Rapids MI says there is no market for hi end arrangers and they don't sell. It is sad but I believe them.

That doesn't excuse the poor customer service I've experienced there but it does explain why no arrangers above the $400.00 Casio.

Tom

No surprise there my friend....
you have to do your own homework before you buy gear....sales rep? bahahahaha Best Buy,Walmart & 7-11 will be the only music stores left soon



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-08-2008).]

My local store is no longer selling high end arrangers.

There is no profit for them as the selling of them is to slow .

The ones on the floor were being sold at marked down prices because they had become
shop soiled.

They are now selling Casio and PSR900 and PSR700 etc.

If I ever want a new high end arranger I will have to get them to order it in.

Cousin Ken

What better proof do we need of the fact that modern arrangers are completely out of touch with the needs of younger players..?

And what hope is there for the continued health of this type of instrument if the only people it appeals to is an ever diminishing pool of aging users?

It is WAY past time for 'the convergence'... WS power and sounds with arranger ease of use. Without this, they are going the way of the 'home organ' (anyone remember those? )

Diki.....Sad but true....good post.
Things are changing fast...gear wise & audience Mindset wise Big Time

Time for Yamaha to use arranger style control of the 'loops and arpeggios' (OK, you and I know that really means 'styles' ) in the MotifXS line...

That's all it really needs to be as functional as a regular arranger (OK, no bass inversions yet, but it could easily be added). Doesn't seem like a whole hell of a lot to add, then the main manufacturers could drop this pathetic effort to squeeze the elderly with stripped down WS's at top dollar prices by slapping a bunch of bossa and bigband 'loops and arpeggios' into the content

I work at a large independent store with a million dollar inventory on the floor. Most of us are over 40 in the store and have a track record of professional work
of making music for a living. In a destination resort market that hires a lot of singles and duos. We have one Tyros 3 and it will sit for a long time.

There is a lot of work here during the season and some off season for musicians.
My wife is one of them. For 30 years she made her living playing. No one we know would take only an "arranger" to a gig or any 61 key board.

My wife does record tracks from the T3 but always shows up with 88 weighted keys and a guitar. whether one of the RD700's or the Casio Previa 320 depending on the job, She feels being hired as a keyboard player requires more than showing up with a 61 key board "you play like a chord organ" She would rather use both hands to play a weighted keyboard even with tracks. As does every other keyboard single or duo player we know who derives their living playing.

The T3 will sit in the store for a long time I suspect. We sell a lot of Clavinova Arrangers and PSR900s. All to home users. None to professional musicians for gigging. Even I use it solely for songwriting and recording. The pros buy their Motifs and Fantoms online. We don't even carry them as we would just be a demo house for them because it has been our experience the tax savings is worth buying online for many regarding those workstations. Home keyboard players tend to buy in store. Pro players buy online.

Not so with high end guitars though.
We have over 300 guitars hanging on the walls, A ton of Amps and room full of PA , 8 grand pianos , a handful of uprights, 100 SF of sheet music, All the Clavinovas made on and on....yet a we had a used Tyros 2 on consignment for nearly a year on the floor that only recently sold.

I understand why Yamaha target markets them to home users. I reside in a destination resort market now and lived in Vegas for years and never saw anyone using an arranger on a paid gig.

The PA2x is a keyboard I can understand people using on a gig far more than the T3. It's built better for that single purpose and somehow looks like a "real keyboard" due to its larger size and 76 keys. Better harmonizer, low impedance mike inputs dual sequencers etc....

I can understand a 61 key board on a rack in a band situation. I cannot envision being hired around here anyway as a keyboard player and showing up with a 61 key board with or without speakers.

I think again Yamaha knows it's primary markets for the products they make and sell.I think the owner only picked up a Tyros 3 because I bought one on the employee plan and I would know how to demo it and train people on it. Also it will help sell far more S900s. $1600-$4000 is quite the jump. Its easier to begin with the T3 and then sell the suddenly bargain S900 using the same styles.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-08-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-08-2008).]

There's another very important factor not mentioned. Yes..., the pro arranger is out of touch with the younger market. That has been obvious for years and clearly the makers target a more mature group for the sales of the high end arrangers.

The younger market (from what I've seen) do want an arranger, but the problem is that NO arranger to date really caters to the modern music. I'm not talking electronica either like Hip Hip, Dance, Rap, ect.., but the more traditional styles today have changed and even the high end arrangers do not reflect this. The arrangers still tend to favor the more old school forms of these styles.

Plus the younger generation are seeing the price tag on these things and shittin their pants on the spot! The younger crowd is going to the WS because they get more modern styles of music from them..., and for them it's a no brainer when they see a Motif XS6 selling for $2199 and the Tyros 3 selling for $3899.

I can't tell you how many times I've talked to someone in their 20's who were lucky enough to find a high end arranger to test.., but were completey turned off by the styles and the price.

These things cost a fortune because for years the target market (the home player) has beeen willing to pay this price. I still say that the problem is what a Yamaha rep told me several years ago regarding the target market for the high end arrangers.. The major problem with that way of thinking now is that TIMES HAVE SERIOUSLY CHANGED, and that "disposable income" isn't as disposable as it used to be for many of those buyers today.

The prices need to come down simple as that. There's no reason a 61 key arranger from Yamaha designed for the home player, and targeted at the home player (which can be seen by it's overall construction)..., should cost more than Yamaha's top end 88 key workstation. That in itself makes no sense. One being an arranger and the other workstation means NOTHING.., as there is NOTHING that truely justifies such a huge price gap between the two. Some of you guys say styles styles styles, yet really haven't a clue as to how much work goes into the drum patterns and arps on a WS.

A good example...., look at the budget mid line arrangers. Look at the price of the S-900 for example..., then compare that to the price of these budget workstations. Even the budget arranger market is higher (even though these keyboard are also built with the home player in mind).

As long as people are willing to pay these sky-high jacked prices on these arrangers, they have no reason to make them more affordable. The price doesn't just affect the buyer either. You also don't see them in stores because of the cost to the dealers as well.


Keyboard departments are VERY expensive to run. The cost to get them set up is enough to change a store owners mind. I was helping a friend who owns a local music store who wanted to set up a keyboard department and have me run it for him. In the end after talking to all the reps (he almost physically threw the Yamaha rep out the door due to the minimal purchase he would have to make and then being told his store had to be moved around in order to sell them.., even though he already had a keyboard section reserved), but the overall cost of getting it up and running was just too much for him.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-09-2008).]

One of the Guitar Center where I live has had a Technics KN2600 sitting in the "PRO" keyboard section for around a year now with nobody snatching it up. One reason being, they are asking way too much for it and most people know by now that Technics doesn't make keyboards anymore.

I'm really not sure how well high-end arrangers are selling at the local Guitar Centers near me. I suppose I could ask next time I go and try and get a feel on what direction Guitar Center might be taking regarding high and mid range arrangers.

I've felt for a long time now that Workstations and Arrangers would more or less "meld" together and it is beginning to happen e.g. with Yamaha's Motif ES/XS and Korg's M3 with Karma 2.0, etc. But I think you're right in that the "terms" used on arrangers will be "changed" to more professionally sounding names and terms. The current stigma regarding: Auto-Accompaniment, Styles, the word "Arranger", Etc., all have that "toy" symbolism ascribed to them in the minds of the traditional Workstation crowd. To overcome that stigma the actual symbols, names, and terms, would need to be changed to gain the acceptance of the Workstation professionals in my opinion. Yamaha is doing that already by saying "Arpeggios" and "Chord Recognition" and Korg is using the term Karma in a similar fashion for the M3.

Unless Arrangers can "turn the corner" and be more than just a "looped based" robotic music generator with no variance in the way the music is generated or presented, I think they will go the way of Home Organs also. With the prices for high-end arrangers going up and up and up, yet people are still getting this robotic artificially presented looped based mechanical connotation attached with them; that the once sizzle will soon fizzle, with people demanding more for their money or opting out of buying an arranger altogether. And the Big Three and others that apply arranger type functions into their Workstations need to "turn the corner" as well when incorporating those arranger type functions into them. Giving them different names helps but the technology that drives them needs to change and improve as well. Like Ketron is trying to do with the Audya and Lionstracs is trying to do with the Mediastation.

Best,
Mike

Mike .....they know what they are doing marketing wise for sure. ......lets face it Arrangers = Home players period and thousands of them worldwide......the live gigging arranger musician is a minuscule percentage if that in that market versus pros who are using so many other methods to gig live & record with out using an arrangers at all. Money drives the different markets.....lumping them all in one cuts PROFITS just like Light Beer & Regular Beer with choices more people BUY different things! What I would assume that in the future music stores will be a thing of the past pushed out by ONLINE stores....... clueless salesperson, poorly stocked stores, overpricing versus the Internet all combine to be the demise of Music stores as we used to know them.
Sad facts but that's life.

First of all... It isn't the nomenclature of MotifXS terms that need to be changed. It is the way they WORK. As long as a button performs the FUNCTION of a fill, I don't give a damn what it is called! But on MotifXS, even the loops which are programmed to be fills cannot be dropped into in realtime. In other words, when you want a fill, you have to cue it up a bar ahead of time.. You can't just drop into it and it be in sync with what is already going on. Plus there are no 'play this loop once, then go to this other loop' commands, which would serve as Intro loops, and no 'play this loop once and stop' which would serve as an ending.

Other than that, functionality is quite similar in many ways, and with the right content could be very arranger-like in many ways. Plus, of course, for your $1800 LESS than a Tyros you get tempo synchronized audio loops, a full featured sampler, multitrack DAW features, digital connectivity, Cubase integration, and a sound palette, especially drums, that blows the Tyros away. SA2, Mega and Live! sounds that you are familiar with, and an effects architecture that puts the T3 to shame. No harmonizer though (yippee!)...

And, of course, a choice of 61, 76 AND 88 keys. Something for everyone.

Kids aren't nearly as dumb as you think they are. Can't say the same for us, I'm afraid...

i wisg they would have retired the the Tyros line with the T2

i really wish they would have expanded on the Motif XS idea, and make it more arranger like... intros, fills,
i mean it's almost there with arpegg, etc,

imagine having a MOTIF arranger, something built well, (not cheap platic), and something that's affordable, not $4K, or over $5k which the Ketron Audya will probably sell for

Diki do you have a MOxs?

No, but I have played one quite a bit...

It's a very good WS, IMO, but the loop system needs more work for it to be of use to more than hiphop type loop triggering. Still weak in the piano, compared to G70/FantomX, though IMO.

Killer Rhodes, though

Well, these 'young' people are going to 'age' too ... let's hope they do it QUICK !!!

t.

When they age, they are going to want to play what they played as youngsters, as do we... They won't be playing arrangers, because they STILL won't be the right keyboard for their music

Our only hope is to get arranger type control of modern WS's... They are cheaper, better, and more abundant, and will be around for LONG after arrangers have gone the way of the 'home organ'

Personally, I think if a MotifXS had arranger style loop control, or a FantomG could control it's tempo-synched loops and arps with chords and had the same arranger-like capabilities (without using the WORD 'arranger' or 'variations and fills' to cloud the issue), I would be using one now, quite happily... and save myself around $1500

But you are NEVER going to see a twentysomething start to use arrangers to play bossas and bigband when he retires!

I wandered into Sam Ash music on 48th St. in Manhattan this afternoon. Unfortunately, I was short of time and could not demo anything, but........they had a Roland GW8 that a sales rep said came in on Friday. I went there to really have a look at a Tyros3. The rep said Tyros 3 is slated for release later this year. I said no they have been released. He went to the computer and said oh yea it has, but out of 22 stores, there's only a couple of stores that have them. One was in LA. Makes you wonder a a chain the size of Sam Ash and the prestige I thought it had. As most other chains there were plenty of synths in stock. They did have most of the other arrangers from Yamaha including a left over Tyros 2 being sold at the closeout price of $2599. Also in stock was a PA800 and a PA500.

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 10-12-2008).]