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#242614 - 09/15/08 01:32 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Your guess is as good as any of ours... Some here will say they're pleased with them... Some will claim they're just as good as the Motif line (but some of us Motif owners strongly disagree with that).
This is Yamaha's top arranger... I don't understand why Tyros owners (who obviously have shown their support for the line simply by the price buyers are paying for them)., but owners don't seem to get the same level of treatment as the pro synth line. This is Yamaha's Pro Arranger.., yet it's marketed as a HOME KEYBOARD.
I have a VERY hard time accepting that it's just a select few here who feel the Tyros line should have better quality drum kits. So much freaking work goes into SA, Mega, Sweet, Cool, and Live voices.., but Yamaha don't seem to give a damn about one of the MAJOR FOUNDATIONS of a style and that's the drums. Users have been complaining about the drums since the first Tyros.. Here we are now with the 3rd generation Tyros.., yet Ty owners STILL don't get the same quality drum kits found on other top end Yamaha keyboards.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#242618 - 09/15/08 02:44 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Well if that's the case Donny.., then why is there a Tyros 3 If the drums were fine before..., and the users here represent a small number..., then why did Yamaha to some extent feel the need to (somewhat) impove the kits on the Tyros 3...? "Success" is also "listening to the needs of your customers". However, as another member noted.. It is probably most likely inter-departmental politics.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#242621 - 09/15/08 03:42 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 2028
Loc: Ventura, Ca, USA
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Even though the drums might not be what you like, Yamaha HAS added new drum sets to every model. With the T2 they added 2 new Power kits, which are quite an improvement over their Live kits. With the T3 they added a new acustic kit, a new Rock kit and several dance kits. It might not be what you like, but never the less they added/changed quite a few kits, which are quite a step up from their previous version. What I noticed lately is that the guys that complain the most would never buy a T3 anyways, with or without 76 keys. How many of you owned a 9000Pro? There is always something wrong with a keyboard.... It's quite simple: you don't like it, don't buy it. I always enjoyed what I had and was able to get the most out of it. Let's face it, most of you have been around for a while and played on what is now considered crap. The technology IS amazing, whether you play Korg, Roland, Yamaha or whatever. Most of the audiences are blown away by the sound that these things can produce. Of course in the right hands. I hope you guys learn to appreciate what you have and just have some fun playing it. Peace Eric
_________________________
Genos, PSR-S970, TC Helicon VoiceLive3, Mackie 802-VLZ3 Mixer, 2 Bose L1 Pro16, Electro-Voice ZXA1 Subwoofer
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#242623 - 09/15/08 04:01 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Personally, I've never had a problem with Yamaha's drums, and neither has my audiences. And, I agree, with every new model, and I've owned lots of them, there have been some incredible improvements. The only exception was the PSR-2000 to PSR-2100, which was not much of an upgrade. If you don't like what you hear coming from the speakers or audio outputs of Yamaha's keyboards, send them a message. DON'T BUY ONE! However, if you do like what you hear, send them a message as well by purchasing their latest and greatest models. It's margaretta time Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#242627 - 09/15/08 04:25 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Originally posted by Eric, B: Even though the drums might not be what you like, Yamaha HAS added new drum sets to every model. With the T2 they added 2 new Power kits, which are quite an improvement over their Live kits. With the T3 they added a new acustic kit, a new Rock kit and several dance kits. It might not be what you like, but never the less they added/changed quite a few kits, which are quite a step up from their previous version. What I noticed lately is that the guys that complain the most would never buy a T3 anyways, with or without 76 keys. How many of you owned a 9000Pro? There is always something wrong with a keyboard.... It's quite simple: you don't like it, don't buy it. I always enjoyed what I had and was able to get the most out of it. Let's face it, most of you have been around for a while and played on what is now considered crap. The technology IS amazing, whether you play Korg, Roland, Yamaha or whatever. Most of the audiences are blown away by the sound that these things can produce. Of course in the right hands. I hope you guys learn to appreciate what you have and just have some fun playing it. Peace EricAMEN!!!! and more emphasis & effort should be on everyday becoming a better player not.....because without that, all this High tech mumbo jumbo talk, better drums etc etc, or whatever means absolutely squat! BTW, Great post!!
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#242632 - 09/15/08 06:41 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Fran, Does the above post mean there is only 10 guys in Jersey giggin? Hmmmmm! In my neighborhood, and down south in nearby Virginia, nearly everyone uses Yamaha, mainly PSR-3000, Tyros and Tyros2. Some guys still using Korgs, I only know of one Ketron user, no Roland users and a handful of assorted oldies that are no longer in business. Guess it all depends on which neighborhood you live in. As for the statistics, there was a post a couple years ago that revealed how many keyboards manufacturers sold. If I recall, Yamaha was at the top in most countries, but there were a few European nations where Korg was at the top of the list. I don't believe Roland was among the top 5, or maybe in the top 10. Of course, all of this don't amount to a hill of beans. In the technological world of arranger keyboards, nearly all of the top manufacturers have produced incredible machines that have far more features than most owners are capable of utilizing. As DNJ has said many, many times, learn to play the keyboard you currently own--you'll be amazed what it will do. Cheers, Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#242637 - 09/15/08 07:30 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by Fran Carango: Ian, your source is the boonedocks..area.
Fran, stop trying to act smart...it doesn't look good on you. Still, facts are facts, and the dealers say Yamaha rules here in the boondocks. Down in the boondocks...down in the boondocks...mmmm...isn't that a song? Billy Joe Royal, I believe....written by Joe South...a great tune, and a great place to live. Keep practising, Sunshine, you're doing great. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#242642 - 09/15/08 07:52 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Originally posted by ianmcnll: Of course they do Diki...what have they to gain by making false statements?
I trust my dealers as much as I can trust you.
And, I do agree...a lot of Yamaha's sales are low-end arrangers, but remember, yesterday's low-end arranger player, is tomorrow's Tyros/S900 buyer.
Not everyone starts out on the high-end stuff.
Ian
Sorry, but yesterday's low end player (unless a retiree) is tomorrow's WS player. Until they start to make them so they are not an embarrassment for younger players to drag out in front of their friends, they are not the upward path we wish they would be. And, I guess the problem with dealers is they are local. No-one wants to accept the dealer's local figures extrapolated to worldwide figures, because each area is quite unique. I have worked retail before, and no-one EVER gave us a brand by brand national or worldwide sales figure, broken down by model... Best I ever saw were total sales, as pumped up to the stockholders meeting, not a per model breakdown. And that was just a couple of brands. And lying is the mantra of the industry. The developers lie to the marketing division (about how long development will take). The marketing division lies to the dealers (about how soon the product will be available), and the dealers lie to their customers (about how much better of a player they will be if they buy BrandX's new arranger)... And then their customers come here and lie (about how fantastic only THEIR arranger is) It's how capitalism survives! Were the truth to ever get out, the system would collapse You can trust me about this I wouldn't lie to YOU [This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-15-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#242644 - 09/15/08 08:30 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
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As DNJ has said many, many times, learn to play the keyboard you currently own--you'll be amazed what it will do. That goes without saying. It also doesn't hurt if the keyboard you play actually sounds good while you play it. >> The better the keyboard sounds i.e. a keyboard with authentic or nearly authentic sound reproduction and realism, the better your audience will enjoy the show in my opinion. Of course, it also depends to a great degree on the proficiency of your keyboard playing skills as well. >> But we all knew that already, right Donny? It goes without saying right Donny? We don't need you to keep repeating it okay Donny? It goes without saying... So stop saying it okay Donny? We get the picture already. lol.. Forgive me for having some fun at your expense. I'm not laughing at you though, I'm laughing with you. You are laughing right Donny? Best, Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.
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#242646 - 09/15/08 11:42 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Member
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
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Originally posted by leeboy: Actually Korg sells more arrangers WORLDWIDE that Yamaha...not that that matters to me.
Don't know about boards in general.
Lee It is amazing that this statement gets challenged )but is most likely the case) but people seem to want to accept that Yamaha sells the most arrangers. Between Korg, Roland and Yamaha, we can probably agree that Yamaha has the most brand exposure for arrangers second to Casio. Because Yamaha has a low-end arranger $100 - $400 in mainstream stores, and also arrangers that are in music stores, they do have a good showing. That is at least in the U.S. And remember, other than price and willingness to pay, there is no substantial difference between a TOTL Yamaha arranger customer and a entry level Yamaha arranger customer. They both want the same thing, --- a glorified Karaoke machine—that is if you believe the users of Yamaha arrangers are well represented here on SZ. Korg, Ketron and in some respects Roland, have a different type of arranger market – the people who want to do something with their arranger---. And, they also get the best value for their money )although that is very subjective). But to depend on The dealers To tell you which arranger is popular among consumers, is risky. Any dealer who wants to stay in business wants to sell the keyboard that brings them the most profit. If Roland has a lot of restrictions on dealers for getting and selling arrangers, but Yamaha is more generous, to the dealer, I wonder who the dealer is going to more likely promote?
_________________________
TTG
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#242652 - 09/16/08 05:05 AM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Casiobot..., I didn't own the MO6..., BUT I did own the MO8. To tell you the truth 64 notes on the MO series is a really dogger. It doesn't take long to max the poly when sequencing. Here's the problem..., the MO6/8 have Motif ES sound engines. The ES's were designed to run on 128 note poly. The MO's run half that. So once you start to sequence on the MO's you'll really notice the poly limit.
With any synth the use of the arps..., and controllers such as the sustain pedal can be huge poly eaters. Take a synth whos sound engine is essentially the Motif ES.., cut that poly in half, use the arps and sustain in sequencing and BAM... POLY BLOWOUT.
If you're looking at the MO's primarily for PLAYING then the 64 notes isn't too bad.., but it will limit you in sequencing. For this reason alone I sold my MO8. I then later (after missing those ES sounds in my set-up) just purhcased a new Motif ES6 before the online retailers lost stock due to the XS's release.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#242662 - 09/16/08 06:32 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Without loop, transposition and tempo adjustment features in any built in player, doing song learning on the keyboard's player is an exercise in futility. What I don't understand is why everybody that has a decent arranger doesn't have a computer standing right in front of it at home... Firstly, just as a simple backup solution, and access to transfer web-found styles and songs (or MP3's ) directly into it. Then, of course, there are all the other benefits like access to audio manipulation programs (Amazing Slow-downer, etc.) that make learning songs a snap, use as a VSTi host for adding high quality sounds to your rig, use of DAW programs, to make producing your music from start to finish easier, use of loop production tools, to make producing more contemporary music a snap... The list goes on and on A computer desk that the arranger sits on, monitor front and center, a pair of decent nearfields to either side, and a drawer underneath with the mouse and computer keyboard on is music making heaven! Something with this kind of form factor: http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/620495/Office-Depot-Brand-Computer-Cart-With/ makes for a pretty efficient workstation (mine is a different brand, and is modified to get the nearfields further out and well supported, but the type is the idea). Now you don't NEED badly thought out arranger audio features!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#242663 - 09/16/08 09:08 PM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
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Originally posted by Diki: Without loop, transposition and tempo adjustment features in any built in player, doing song learning on the keyboard's player is an exercise in futility.
What I don't understand is why everybody that has a decent arranger doesn't have a computer standing right in front of it at home... Firstly, just as a simple backup solution, and access to transfer web-found styles and songs (or MP3's ) directly into it. Then, of course, there are all the other benefits like access to audio manipulation programs (Amazing Slow-downer, etc.) that make learning songs a snap, use as a VSTi host for adding high quality sounds to your rig, use of DAW programs, to make producing your music from start to finish easier, use of loop production tools, to make producing more contemporary music a snap... The list goes on and on
A computer desk that the arranger sits on, monitor front and center, a pair of decent nearfields to either side, and a drawer underneath with the mouse and computer keyboard on is music making heaven! Something with this kind of form factor: http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/620495/Office-Depot-Brand-Computer-Cart-With/ makes for a pretty efficient workstation (mine is a different brand, and is modified to get the nearfields further out and well supported, but the type is the idea).
Now you don't NEED badly thought out arranger audio features!That what we have. AN RD700 Roland for a MAster Conroller in front of two 19" LCD monitors which have near fields on the outside. The Arranger is on the left keyboard side and is only played when using organ/synth parts. Everything is hard wired to an M-Audio Ultra and a (Mackie 1604 for monitoring vocals with effects) We use Sonar 6 and Sound Forge as our primary DAW software with Platinum Waves and some other interesting plug ins and soft synths. I was hoping the Korg would be the end all and use the Previa for the weighted keys. But it's a great DEEP toll with a learning curve I just was not willing to sink my teeth into. My bad, not the Keyboard. I do like Yamaha's "polished" sound for CDS though saves a lot of time in mastering process allowing us to concentrate on the vocals. I an until now comparing the Korg with the T2. I believe the Tyros 3 will deliver far more and the distance between the S900 and T3 will widen by a mile.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4 Yamaha Motif XS8 Roland RD700 Casio PX-330 Martin DC Aura Breedlove ATlas Solo Bose MOD II PA
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#242664 - 09/17/08 07:08 AM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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When I first read the technical data for the Tyros3 I seriously considered buying a pair of them. (Gotta' have backups!) The cost was not a determining factor one way or another. On the plus side, it has some really neat features, including the ability to connect an external monitor (same as the T2), which can then be used for displaying lyrics. Additionally, the lyrics can be embedded within registrations, thus making selection a matter of a single button push--two at most. That's one hell of an asset, especially for those of us who have age impaired eyesight. And, for some strange reason I cannot remember all of the words to every song that has been produced during the past half-century.
The ability to store huge numbers of style files, midi files and lyrics on the keyboard's HD also seemed the best way to go. Again, lots of information right at your fingertips and with just a couple button pushes anything can be instantly accessed.
The ability to interface the keyboard with the PC, plus being able to transfer information between both systems is also a big plus. This is all done via a standard USB 2.0 connection and supplied software.
The T3's built-in vocal processor is marginal at best for vocal harmony, but keep in mind that this is a little used feature on most keyboards. And, for less than $300 you can purchase TC Helicon's new Harmony-M, which in my opinion, does an outstanding job and takes up very little space.
Now for the downside--at least for me. The keyboard is a bit heavier than I am currently enjoying. Yep, I'm gettin' too darned old to lug a keyboard from job to job that feels like it is made of cast iron. (Sorry Fran.) But, even this would not have deterred me from buying a pair of T3s.
The big downer was that I would be soley relying on the T3 for everything, thereby eliminating the laptop from my setup. My laptop not only displays lyrics and plays MP3s and MIDI files, it's also my primary backup system. If the keyboard were to fail, and you were 50 miles from home with 300 people standing in front of you, the laptop can get you through the day and no one is the wiser. Sure, I could haul the laptop around in the van and hook it up if there was a keyboard failure, but that all takes time.
For now, I'll stick with what I've got. They're not TOTL keyboards--just mid range, but they do the job without headaches. I won't count the T3 out, though. I'll take the time to check it out at the local GC when it arrives in my neighborhood. Then, and only then, will I have sufficient information to consider upgrading.
Good Luck,
Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#242666 - 09/17/08 08:19 AM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Member
Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
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Originally posted by Kingfrog: MOst professional published songwriters use ARRANGERS to arrange their songs. They hire producers and Arrangers who in turn bring their best musicians for that particular "style" When you say most professional published songwriters use "Arrangers" you mean a human who arranges songs for instruments and orchestras, not an arranger keyboard right? Of all the professional songwriters and musicians I know, I can count those that use an arranger keyboard to compose songs on less than two hands. Most pro's I know write songs typically on either a piano or guitar as their primary writing instrument. I myself prefer to write on piano or a synthesizer but will often use my arranger keyboard to flesh out a song after the basic concept is written. Once I have the song structure down then I typically bring in real musicians to play the parts such as guitar, sax, and drums. I know that in Nashville there are songwriters who use arrangers to flesh out songs but afterwards they bring in world class studio musicians to track the songs after they are written. I've yet to meet a single professional published songwriter who has conceived, recorded, and released a song to radio, TV, or film that was done entirely on an arranger keyboard. Arranger keyboards are a very, very small niche and while those here on Synthzone may utilize them daily, we are the exception and not the rule. [This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 09-17-2008).]
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#242674 - 09/19/08 09:23 AM
Re: What is Yamaha thinking?
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
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Originally posted by Ensnareyou: When you say most professional published songwriters use "Arrangers" you mean a human who arranges songs for instruments and orchestras, not an arranger keyboard right?
Of all the professional songwriters and musicians I know, I can count those that use an arranger keyboard to compose songs on less than two hands. Most pro's I know write songs typically on either a piano or guitar as their primary writing instrument. I myself prefer to write on piano or a synthesizer but will often use my arranger keyboard to flesh out a song after the basic concept is written. Once I have the song structure down then I typically bring in real musicians to play the parts such as guitar, sax, and drums.
I know that in Nashville there are songwriters who use arrangers to flesh out songs but afterwards they bring in world class studio musicians to track the songs after they are written. I've yet to meet a single professional published songwriter who has conceived, recorded, and released a song to radio, TV, or film that was done entirely on an arranger keyboard.
Arranger keyboards are a very, very small niche and while those here on Synthzone may utilize them daily, we are the exception and not the rule.
[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 09-17-2008).] I meant human Arrangers. The keyboard Arrangers are just virtual Human Arrangers I have no issue using the Arranger for BG tracks on a CD. We sell CDS on site. The average Joe could care less and could not tell if real instruments were used. The Arrangers save a lot of Studio time and paying musicians. IF I were going to use real musicians I would buy a Fantom or Motif. Use the on brand sequencer and arpeggiators and hire musicians. I believe its actually more acceptable to sell a CD with arranger tracks than to use an entire arrangement live. I believe most people will view that as Karaoke whereas the CD with the arranger parts would not be considered as singing to a KAraoke track.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4 Yamaha Motif XS8 Roland RD700 Casio PX-330 Martin DC Aura Breedlove ATlas Solo Bose MOD II PA
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