I play only senior gigs now but play up to 4 times weekly. Most of my venues require me to travel up to 85 miles round trip and gas prices are eating me up. Has anyone here had to go up in pricing to make up for the gas prices?

Hammer

Yes.
DonM

Yes we should add Gas surcharge for Long trips.

I would say take a look at the venue...

Is it still packed? Have the management raised prices on their customers (to cover the increases in costs for THEM) and the venue is STILL doing a good business? If so, then I'd say you are in a good position to negotiate.

But don't forget, those pressures on you are also the same pressures on your employer, AND his customers. If he is hurting too, higher food wholesale prices, trucking costs, etc., and his customers are hurting to find discretionary income to go out to a restaurant (they've got to drive there, too!) only to find higher menu prices and the like, it may not be the best time to try and squeeze him tighter!

A lot would depend on how secure do you feel in the job? If you raise prices, are you SURE they won't just try and find someone more local, or do without live entertainment at all...?

It's your call. Maybe there's no harm in asking (not demanding!), but if they refuse, right now, with the economy tanking, I wouldn't push the point....

Somebody has to take a hit and it shouldn't be you. You do what you have to do in today's economy. Gas here in So. calif. is hovering around $4.40 a gallon for regular unleaded and some say it will hit $5.00+ by the end of summer. I really feel for those who have an RV or an SUV. As we speak, 5 major oil consuming countries including the U.S.A. are asking, or rather I should say pleading, with the oil exporting nations to increase oil production immediately, and their reply was oil production will in NO WAY increase until AFTER the oil summit on September 9th in Vienna.

Yeah, you will need to increase your gig prices if you have to because you are a service being rendered to the public i.e. musical entertainment, and gas prices i.e. driving to and from gigs, are all factored into the price of the service. When the cost in the price to deliver those services goes up, your prices have to go up accordingly to be able to offset the higher price that it costs to provide those services. >> Even though you may not want to because of kindheartedness or the possibility of them turning you down or losing the contract if you did happen to raise your prices. Like I said, you do what you have to do.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 06-07-2008).]

Right out of the clear blue sky, the funeral directors in my area have seemed to increase the stipend I receive for funerals; I'm not complaining. I raised my wedding service fee this year to. Costs are going up all over.

I agree with Diki....if you aint got the musaical goods to "command" a raise in the first place better watch yourself or you wont need to raise prices because you wont have a gig to drive to anymore..

dump the gas guzzler & buy a smaller 4 banger makes more sense.

Can you send some of that to us here in Europe,please?!!!!
Most of us here have been paying over $10 for some time now!


------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

And rarely having to drive 2-300 miles to get to a 'local' gig.

Count your blessings...

It's not a bad idea to drive 60mph in the slow lane and look for addtional meager jobs in the same area, on the same day, to at least pay for gas.

I'm not too proud to play for $50 or so (at a facility which has no/little budget). And don't think this lowers the bar. I keep my job pricing private. The folks there deserve music as much as anyone

There are many facilities that allow me to play whenever I want at a reduced price when in the area - that's a good thing.

Look at it this way. I know some who work all day (GC, etc) for $8 hr - $64 a day? I count my blessings every time I turn on the keyboard folks. Life is short.

So now this explains you playing 50 gigs a month..... personally I wouldnt leave my house for that price for a 1hr gig....but I guess if you want to get your name out there these facilities will jump at the ridiculously low fees your charging.
If you want to save gas start charging $125-$200 per hour....play less and make more..weed out the lowballers & concentrate on quality venues at higher prices.
All power to you Zuki....$50.00 per hour is more like bar gig rates.

Zuki,

I think your are right on. In my area I play at two places that charge residents up to $7000.00 monthly - I get paid very well at these venues. I also have a place that you would never get me to live in - but those folks are about my most appreciative crowd. They appreciate anything being done for them.

I am a little different than most folks on this forum in that I am retired and don't make my living anymore playing music - started playing again to have something to do. Yes, I charge - and I get paid well - but there are times when I also take less if the circumstances warrant it. Besides, I probably have more fun at my gigs than does the audience.

I guess it is all a matter if perspective - when I was in my prime (30 years ago) and playing studio gigs, all the big shows in town, and symphony work that was a different matter. Now - it is just a lot of fun - and I get paid too! Can't beat that.

Hammer

Donny,

You toot your own horn on how you love to inspire and reach people, but on the other hand will never enter a facility that can't afford a better musician. Yes, I have almost 60 jobs a month. DON'T assume they are ALL $50. Maybe 1 or 2 a month is the norm. I play up to $250 a gig too you know. Also, many of these jobs have graduated into more money because of my willingness to work with them. In addtion to that, some ADs have moved on and call me for better playing jobs. ADDITIONALLY, I have landed private parties from birthday parties or visitors.

There is nothing more gratifying than blessing people - no matter what the cost. I am businessman too and know how to make money, but know that I am truly blessed and need to keep it in perspective.

Is it really fair to have the janitor/guitar player the only source of entertainment for folks who will never have their memories stirred because we are too good for them?

What goes around, comes around. I can pick and choose only after my 2nd year. I will continue ALWAYS to play for $50 if it is my calling.

Zuki........I have done my share of charity work many many times performing for FREE for certain organizations...& yes I can toot my horn because I paid my dues many many times over during my 40 years of playing out.
If you can endure lugging your gear around 3 or 4 x a day setting up, driving to & fro maybe after 40 years in the business you can also go for the gold. By you low balling the competition your actually ruining it for everyone else...if your better then the rest you should get more money then the bad ones ....if you get 50 what do they get? Years ago we had union rates that were strictly enforced to keep everyone above water....but now we have everyone and their sister playing for squat & worse just to work.....so then when a good act comes around no one wants to pay.
If people are "honest" with me when contracting work I will bend the rates a bit....but if they cry the blues on price then have the party at big million dollar Country Club I tell to go get someone else.
Every one wants a break, dont be a schnook yur smarter then that.....get what your worth my friend. There's too many fish in the sea



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-08-2008).]

My car gets 20 miles per gallon ( not bad for a van ), so it cost's me $1 every 5 miles. I hace added that to ALL my jobs, and I take special notice when running errands ..... is the trip REEEEALY neccesary? This gas BS is going to change many people's thinking.

I doubt that Dave, people are still smoking $8.00 a pack cigarettes 2 to 3packs a day, buying lottery & scratch off tickets by the hundreds, the Casinos & race tracks are packed with gamblers.....its all about priorities.....people waste money all day long on what THEY LIKE....so I dont buy into the gas BS at all....look around you next time you see a crowded bar with people buying $10.00 shot rounds of Tequila give me a break!!! Live hard....Pay Hard is say!!
Nothing will change if its what THEY want!

Zuki, it SOUNDS great and inspiring and all, to give some of these low-budget venues a break, but......... Donny is absolutely correct in that it seriously injures the entire industry (and certainly the local industry) to play at these ridiculously low prices. I won't repeat the 'cons' as Donny has covered them very well, but trust me, the damage to the industry (as represented by your fellow gigging musicians) far outweighs any personal satisfaction you might get by 'helping out' these 'poor people'. It's not the poor residents you're helping, it's the rich management/owners.

Want to REALLY help them? Try Russ's approach. Volunteer to work for NH reform which might include a mandated entertainment budget. That type of thing helps EVERYBODY involved. JMO.

chas

This has turned into a very interesting thread. I started playing around 1956 in the St. Louis area - a very Union strong town. I was to young at the time to join but did so later. All gigs had a minimum pay scale that had to be paid and it helped everyone including the venue owners. Basically, those who could play - did those who couldn't - didn't. The owners of venues knew they were getting capable musicians and were for the most part ok with pricing. I moved to Texas in the early 1960's - a right to work state - and immediatly began to see a vast difference in the music market. Even though I was a member of two musicians Unions there were still times when prices were a little strange. All the top gigs required Union membership but there were tons of non-union gigs and that was the beging of the end of guarenteed pricing. Today - everyone on a local level is having trouble "making a living" playing music.

Seems to me everyone has a valid point here - times have changed and everyone does what is necessary to "get by". I certainly agree with the effort to help reform NH practices. I have seen cutbacks and reluctance on ADs to hire decent players the last year and it is very frustrating to keep calling the ADs who seem to be simply fulfilling an obligation to the job rather then serving their population.

I manage to keep as busy as I really want at this time in my life but I really feel for those folks depending on this income for their families.

Hammer

Restaurant jobs around here pay $150.00...tops.
I've been making that for about 15 years now...no raises. Two of the long-time gigs have been compromised by people who have come in and offered to play for 1/2...$75.00. That is now the rate at one of the places my friend George Gentry worked for years for $150.00. I still get $150.00 there, but that's because, in this "one horse" town, I'm sort of the one people go to for image. Owners who pay others less say I'm worth more because of reputation and recognition factors (notice they say nothing about talent).

This means the rates at two of the top venues are now where they were in 1980.

Owners consider the music a background function and really don't want people staying around after they dine. In fact, I'm often asked to break early to turn the "sitters".

Some of these players are not worth $75.00 in another setting. Most of the owners of the regular places I play tell me there are 10 plus people a week in the door begging for work.

We should set our price, but be careful that we don't work only on price. A couple of half-assed non-players around here have ruined the market, money-wise. They embarass themselves on several levels.

First, they beg for the work. Next, They're not respected by the real players in the market because their lack of ability and last, they have compromisede the pay scale.

These guys are bottom feeders in my opinion. They never can keep a job, but make things difficult for others. Kind of like a pimple on your butt. Customers complain, but they hang around for years just irritating everyone.

They cause me no problems but are rough to deal with for talented people trying to break into the market.

I limit my work in restaurants to just enough to keep myself out there for better paying private functions. When I play 4 nights on a patio in the summer, my income actually goes down significantly. But, if I start on the patio on May 1st, I have my 250 private jobs for the year booked by around June 15. Most now are repeat business.

That's the reality here in Lexington.


Russ

Just two simple things, Zuki....

Firstly, announcing publicly that you WILL play for $50 might not have been the best idea. Let us just hope that some of the ED's at some of your higher-priced engagements don't see this, and realize that you CAN be had for less

Also, we'd better not hear you complain if some other retired person who gets back into 'entertaining' at NH gigs comes in to one of your $250 gigs, and offers to do it for $50 (or free!)

Sheesh everyone - let me repeat: I play 1 to 2 gigs per month at a reduced rate. These are next door and the same day to accommodate my schedule and give poorer facilities the chance for quality entertainment. The other 50+ I make as much as the high priced players. Get off your high horses please.

That's not a high horse, Zuki... That's a WORKHORSE

Zuki,

You don’t need to apologize for anything. If you went out for $5 even, that’s no one’s concern but your own.

You wrote:

“The folks there deserve music as much as anyone.”
“Look at it this way. I know some who work all day (GC, etc) for $8 hr - $64 a day? I count my blessings every time I turn on the keyboard folks. Life is short.”
“There is nothing more gratifying than blessing people - no matter what the cost.”
“I will continue ALWAYS to play for $50 if it is my calling.”

The remarks of a true humanitarian!

Hammer wrote:

“but those folks are about my most appreciative crowd. They appreciate anything being done for them.”

Good for you, hammer!

Gas prices:

Keybplayer thinks that “somebody has to take a hit and it shouldn’t be you” ….and….”you are a service being rendered to the public.”

Sorry, Keybplayer, but that and $1 will take you two blocks on the subway!

Uncle Dave says: “This gas BS is going to change many people's thinking.” He’s absolutely correct and Donny is living in some kind of a dream world. Sure, people are still living the high life…on credit cards! When they max out sometime this year, you’re going to see the changes that Uncle Dave talks about. Stand behind some shoppers in any retail store or supermarket. See how many people you see paying with cash. I’ve noted sales as little as $5 being paid by plastic.

Yes, Donny, “people waste money all day long on what THEY LIKE.” But, they will waste money only as long as they have it. By the end of this year, our current recession will almost guarantee that no one has it! Then you will see what Uncle Dave is predicting.

Chas writes about the “damage to the industry” by charging low prices. Chas, the industry couldn’t be more damaged than what it is, relative to what it used to be. Have you not noticed elementary players who were laid off from their day jobs and are now playing in various venues the instrument they stopped playing 30 years ago…and doing it for peanuts…and putting the better players out of work over economics? Or the local high school amateur choral club getting experience in the nursing homes working for nothing? Or the AD’s who just want to fill a slot with a “body” and has no demands reference quality of performance?

Now, you folks who advocate raising their prices to pay for gas. Are you joking? Do you really think AD’s care what you have to pay for gas? Do you think they’re even going to take the time to listen to your drama. And…..do you really think the service that we render is not the first to be retired in hard times?

Further, it’s not about what you charge, it’s about what THEY can afford. And it’s also about...you can be replaced with a monkey (courtesy of your local organ grinder) and a tuna fish sandwich and no one would even notice!. “Quality” and “professional” do NOT cut it anymore and you can‘t bank on this for leverage like in the old days.

As for bars and restaurants, I learned early on the simple formula of how much to ask for. You ask for as much money as you’re drawing in. If the owner could make almost the same $’s as when you’re not there, you become dispensable. If there’s a severe shortage in the night’s receipts when you’re not playing, then you’re sitting in the driver’s seat. No magical formula, just common sense.

I never went out for $50, but if it was offered to me and it was convenient, of course I’d do it. I see it like this. I’m not doing anything anyway, the $50 will be gravy money for a tank of gas or a good dinner, but, most important…..I will be spreading joy and taking a group of people out of the harshness of their situations for a happy and vibrant musical hour! To see what it means to these folks cannot be put into words for any amount of money!

Lucky

Thanks Lucky - well said

Wow.
I was going to add to my comment, but Lucky covered it all!
Excellent recap!

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/synthmuzic/rates.html

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/synthmuzic/bobsynth.html

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-10-2008).]

It's interesting to me that compensation and talent are sometimes not that closely related.

Around here, restaurants pay about 30% of what corporate and upscale private jobs pay.

Even in the photography business, I used to struggle to get someone to pay $100.00 for a print that cost me about $20.00 to produce. Then, I learned that corporate photography, which, within reason, takes no more ability and is much less enjoyable, pays $2400.00 a day.

I'm no better a player when I play my $500.00 plus jobs for a horse farm than someone who plays a nursing home for $50.00. And, if I could work steadily as a B-3 player in a hardcore jazz club, I'd do it for $50.00 in a minute.

My "sell out" years ago" involved locating the source for the best pay (be it art, graphics, music, photography...whatever) and doing that. And that is something I'm not very proud of.

"Sell out" Russ

I charge $50.00 an hour travel time for anything out of the city. For right now, that covers the gas and a little for the drive-time.
Only have 2 or three of these a month.

R.

$50/hr is very low, but it doesn't mean that Zuki is a sellout.

I support my family doing this, and the bottom line is important.

I have one NH 7.5 miles away that I do for $100 for 55 minutes. They hire me every single Monday morning. I just raised the rate $5 yesterday to $105. I've been doing this place for about 9 years, and I have been bumping up the price to keep up with inflation. I will probably ask for another $5 next March.

I have another NH 15 minutes away that I go to one morning a month for $100. I play for an Alzheimer's unit where they would never have music unless it was cheap. They have me there three afternoons a year, and I charge $150. Plus I get $300 for a 1.5 hr Xmas party.

I feel bad that I am locked into a lot of contracts that I negotiated last year. I'm going to be spending at least $1000 more on gas just for my car. Plus I pay for my wife's gas.

Plus everything else is going up! We're a family of three, and our last Sam's Club grocery bill was over $200! My health insurance went up 13%.

I am definitely raising rates. You have to. I probably cannot even afford to raise them enough to absorb all of the inflationary pressures going on. All I can do is be more discriminating about long distance gigs, and to target higher paying venues.

To those folks in Europe who pay $10 a gallon for gas. That sucks, but you also get free medical, cheap universities, and paid maternity leave and longer vacations. I feel blessed to be here in the good old USA, but some of the perks you Western Europeans get make me jealous.

Beakybird

Beaky raise with caution.....it definitly can backfire in your face in the long run & you can lose more jobs then you raise
There are many other creative ways to increase your income musically.
Think about it.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-10-2008).]

Donny, I love ya man, but you are living in a dream land. Everyone is getting hit, and hit HARD by this crisis. I am loosing over $100 per month alone ... just by driving.
If you thing people are not going to be affected or not change some of their habits, you are in for a big surprise.
We're all paying increases ... at the punp, at the food store ... ther eis no end in sight for how much this will affect our lifestyle. The simple truth for me is this:
I cannot afford a payCUT at someone elses whim, so I will take matters into my own hands and make up the difference. My time is worth money, and my music requires time to get it to the client ... so, if inflation hits me, then I must pass it along, or else I sell myself short.

The reality is that most people will have to cut costs, prioritise better, and work a bit harder. Just a simple truth. It is too easy to price yourself out of a job if one is not careful.

Oh and that goes for 90% of small business.

Jerry

That's America in a nutshell!

But of course, it has to be SOMEBODY. Now if only we could figure out how to make it that EVERYBODY takes a hit when things get bad, and everybody gets a boost as things get better (rather than just tax breaks for the wealthy while standards slip for the rest) and we could get back to being a great nation and model for the world.

But if you haven't figured out that service employees (that what we are - we provide a service, albeit a non-essential one ) are the FIRST to take the bullet, you've been living on Prozac too long...

People are living above their means ....simple as that....now when times get hard they want to cry....I'm sorry but you should of thought of that before you got into a heavy debt life style way above your means.....now its gonna hurt. We all make choices.......credit has ruined many lives financially...its up to you to manage it properly.
I hope these people make it through & adjust to whats happening asap...the time to prepare for this was past due.
All of our situations are different & only you can make the changes hopefully for the better.

If we just pay the outrageous prices at the pumps, we are no more than sheep. It's time to modify our lifestyles, cut back on needless trips and economize more.
I am not going to take this lightly. I will fight with every resource I have to gain back what is being taken from me.
There. The glove has been thrown down! Grrr

(Now for the BIG question .... who am I challenging? No Bush haters,ultra Left dreamers, or non US residents need apply, please)
I'm serious ... I want some normalcy back, and I want it now.

Sorry Dave, Haven't you heard?
We are all in for a ten year slow-down, yes, ten years!
When I say all, the finance boys are saying it in Europe and mainly because we are also injured by the American economy.

Bottom line is....we have to "cut our coats according to the cloth" which means as has already been said, we have had it so good for the last ten years, now comes the payback.Throw away your credit cards.

BTW, Beakybird, where did you hear that about free medical in Europe? In UK, the working population has to pay $15 dollars for every item on a doctor's prescription!

cheers
Eddie

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

$15... you are kidding us aren't you?!

Have you any idea how much the average American has to pay? Let's talk about $1000 deductibles (and that's a GOOD plan), and little relief for prescription...

I'm from England originally. Trust me guys. Envy about our health care system should be reserved for the ultra-rich (if you can afford it, it's great. If you can't, it's terrible!)...

Here is a great graph from 2003 of per capita medical spending and life expectancy among countries. It is an eye opener!!!
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/01/odd-chart-of-th.html

The USA is #27 in life expectancy (just beating out Cuba) but by far #1 in per capita medical spending: $4500 per person in 2003 beating Switzerland by $2000 yearly per capita. I'm sure that the statistics are worse for Americans now in 2008 as medical inflation is almost as bad as petroleum inflation.

So many of us have a double gripe. My self-employed insurance deductible is $2500 per family member. I don't have $2500 in savings (except for retirement), so we just pray that we don't get sick.

My insurance costs $2400 a year for two people, and I cannot begin to list all of the exclusions which include all psychological ailments, drug dependency, carpal tunnel, and TMJ.

Beakybird

[This message has been edited by Beakybird (edited 06-11-2008).]

Dave ....calm down.....set up the Bose Poolside mix-up a batch Pina Coladas, put on some Tower of Power & invite Fran & me over for a nice afternoon asap we'll discuss life's problems

Don't quite understand what you're saying there Diki.
What I said was that if you get a diagnosis from a doctor that you need certain pills or tablets for your problem, you go to the chemist (pharmacy) and pay £7.40 (=$15 or 16) for each packet of pills.
If you are advised two or three different medicines, then you have to pay 2 or 3 times $15!!!for your packet.
What usually happens is that patients do not go to the pharmacies because they cannot afford to pay for the medicine....with obvious results.
As for the so-called "free health service" , we paid for that treatment by subscription throughout our working life.
cheers

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info



[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 06-11-2008).]

People are living above their means ....simple as that....now when times get hard they want to cry....I'm sorry but you should of thought of that before you got into a heavy debt life style way above your means.....now its gonna hurt. We all make choices.......credit has ruined many lives financially...its up to you to manage it properly.
I hope these people make it through & adjust to whats happening asap...the time to prepare for this was past due.
All of our situations are different & only you can make the changes hopefully for the better.
**************************************
Donny......you're merciless!

Merciless? Hmmmmm? I dont think so.
Remember I live in this world also, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination....I have made huge financial mistakes in my life also, BUT, thankfully I learned by those mistakes very well & changed those bad financial habits and little by little made my life more comfortable. If you cant take the truth I'm sorry for that, I mean no misfortune to anyone...just making a statement of how I perceive what the heck is going on out there in this crazy world, & hope someone will absorb what I'm saying for the better. .....it's all right there in front of everyones nose LOOK AROUND YOU !
Instead of complaining be a leader & make the required changes to better the problems.
Take care of #1 no one else will.

Have a nice day



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-11-2008).]

One thing I learned years ago is to always live BELOW your means. When I was in Corporate America, I also worked 6 nights a week in the music biz. I NEVER counted on this money. I contributed the max to my 401K, had a nice company retirement, saved a little of my playing money and spent the rest. I NEVER committed any of the music income long-term. For example, I would buy a Mazda or similar car I could easily afford on my day-gig pay instead of buying a Mercedes or more expensive vehicle.

Even though the kids are grown and on their own (except for all too frequent financial "emergencies"), I still bank my playing money...buy way too many toys...donate to several causes. But, I'm set for life. When the farm sold in 2000, I built a modest house
which cost about 10% of what I got for the property.

I feel guilty about what I have sometimes, but am comfortable and support the people and causes I care about.

If I never worked another day, I'd be comfortable for life. But, even though i could collect full retirement and SS within a few years, I'M NOT EVEN CLOSE to retiring!

Take care of your families and plan for your retirement! Pay off your residence or downsize when you get near retirement to fund your lifestyle.

Most of all, DON'T LIVE ABOVE YOUR MEANS! And, enjoy your time with those close to you!


Russ

My goal is to owe a million dollars when I die. I'll be that much AHEAD!
Seriously, I'm now paying as much for a tank of gas as most of you did a year or so ago. LOVE my Scion XB! 34 mpg!
DonM

Bose equipment - pool - drinks: Look who has the money

Russ its all right there in one sentence

Great post!

I'm looking, and I don't see any money around here. I work very hard to have a few nice things. The pool came with the house, and my fence needs replacing. I can't afford it. I don't drink. I can't afford it, and I don't generally like the way I see pwople act when they do.
As for the Bose - I can't afford NOT to use it. It is by far the most efficient use of money and space that gives me a superior sound in any venue. That one has made it possible for me to make enough money to pay the bills. I have a 5 yr old car, a 30 yr old heater that is on it's last legs, and I'm one of the newer teachers in a very small, private school. No large public school salaries at our place. We do it for the kids.

So, my friend, if you think I have anything of real value - I do ...... family, friends, and the feeling of doing good work each ady b4 I sleep. That's why I work, and that's why I get so upset when someone makes me work harder just to stay even.

Sigh ..... I'm sorry for the rant. I am really almost content with most of my life. The troubles I brought upon my self a few years ago are almost forgotton by most, my health is good, my kids are amazing. Maybe one day I'll find a way to settle the whole Donna issue. For now ..... all my work goes into making the kids happy. Dad will have his day, one day.

What a cool thread this has become - it is really interesting how we get to a certain age and place in our lives and we suddenly discover what is really important in our lives. I don't know most of the members here being somewhat new but there have been some very wise thoughts given in this thread. I too am retired and "set" as they say for the rest of my life - great kids, a wife who I could never say enough good things about, and now all I have to do is stay healthy and continue to do little things for folks less fortunate than myself. To this day we still are frugal about our spending. I have friends who always ask us how we "afford" some of the things we have and do. What they really want to ask is how much are you worth or where does you money come from. Little do they know it is all because of hard work and budgets over the last 50 years. I taught school most of my life and I can't remember a time that I didn't have at least one other job to go along with it - mostly music jobs. Many were the nights I would get home after 2AM from a music gig and be at school in the classroom at 8AM on the job.

Seems like a lot of the folks under 30 I meet think the world owes them a living and to even suggest a 2nd or 3rd job is a personal insult to them. I was always taught you get out of life what you put into it.

Wow! I usually don't get on a soapbox.

Hammer



[This message has been edited by hammer (edited 06-12-2008).]

ok so there you have it.......everyone is $loaded$ here so no need for increases on gig rates lets all head to teh beach today an enjoy the Music, Bikinis, Casinos Beer & Knishes!! Yipppeeee!

Life is good

Very well said, Hammer! And, Dave, I'd adopt you in a second, you "old softie", you!

And I kid Don a lot, but he got where he is the hard way...HE EARNED IT! (we like our Scion's, too, Don).

R.

I think most of us on SZ got to where we are the "hard way" Russ...I wasn't aware there ever was an "easy way".

If you know of one...let me know.

Ian

Ian, I know lots of folks with inherited money(mostly horse fram "brats" around here) or beneficiaries of proceeds from lawsuits who didn't do much to get what they have. The operative words in Don's case are "where he is". He's a modest old dude, but has an admirable history of successes as a Corporate communications Officer, successful club owner, publisher and, of course, musician.

It's his degree of success and modesty, I was referring to. He's one of the more successful contributors here, and deserves my recognition as a "winner" and all round great guy.

And, you're right...there isn't usually an "easy way...".

Hell, I'm trying to get Don to adopt me!


Russ

I am retired too....What ever that is....

Does retired mean you do what ever you want?

Than I have always been retired..

Personaly, I would not trade my life for any other...
I do and have done what ever I wanted to do..and never had to answer to anyone..

Family, friends, health, and faith are all in place...with no worries [knock on wood}..

Russ there is a big difference in selling the farm...and "bought the farm"..

Way to go Fran that's nice work if you can get it.

No complaints here after a 25 plus year career in sales I have 2 jobs both that were my hobbies and get paid to do them both. Yes I put in many hours on the day job but it's not work, it's my hobby. If I hit a mega lottery jackpot, I'd be home doing the same thing I show up at the office to do everyday.

On the charging more for gigs, I guess living in the smallest state in the union has it's rewards. Most gigs are well under 30 miles and many of them are at NHs that are 10 mile or less average ride from home. I play a few others in nearby Massachusetts where my day job is located. Most of the time I'm able to schedule those NHs gigs around a 2 hour lunch break.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 06-12-2008).]

Russ, you are TOO kind! I am in a good place right now in my life. I have probably the best music job in the area, 5 nights a week. I have two of everything so I can leave my gear set up all the time, even when I have an outside job. What else: a wonderful wife who's job provides income and insurance, great kids and now grandkids, health is good, home on the golf course, and of course the Scion XB!
I left the "real world" almost 30 years ago to be a musician. It hasn't always been easy but I've never regretted that decision. It helps to have an understanding wife who stands behind you even when you mess up!

Today I have to play for the Sheriff's fish fry at 5:00, then on to the supper club by 7:00. I can make it because I don't have to move anything. I can collect my gear from the party tomorrow at my leisure. Nobody will steal it from the Sheriff's Station!

Dave, the best investment I've made music-wise was the Bose L1 stystem. The second best was an additional Bose L1 system.
My Ketron SD5 is at the supper club and I'll use either PSR900 or Midjay at the fish fry.
Main problem is I'll be expected to eat dinner twice!

Getting back to the topic of the thread--the economy could certainly have a big effect on my situation. I'm trying to keep a positive outlook and hang on as long as possible. I'm old enough to retire, but TO WHAT??? I'm already doing what I love to do.
DonM

Don. Who you kiddin? You about cleaned out that buffet at the casino when we were in Lousiana.

For those of you who have never eaten with Don, when he finishes his meal, he says something like, "Well, its time to re-load". And he comes back with another ENTIRE meal.

It takes a lot to fuel a 6'5" frame.

Eddie

Well, I have a duo and we mostly play at ethnic parties. I have notice that everytime I take out my Dodge Caravan it costs me a little more to fill up and I have thought about asking for a couple of bucks more when I book a gig. But this is the problem, we mostly play at 2 local social clubs 3 times a year, one local restaurant at time 2-3 a year (when the house music is off) and a few private affairs. Being that we are portuguese and our community is less and less every year the gigs have been less and less and now we most likely have more bands/duos/dj then actual gigs. It would be foolish to ask for more money. Since visa's are closed to european countries, you have very little people coming to the USA from europe and the younger generation doesn't really care about there backgrounds or are more americanized. So that one aspect on how the portuguese music community is making less money and the other big factor is now with all of this (gas, high food prices, many layoffs)people can afford to have parties at restaurants or go to the monthly social club affair. Twenty years ago the local social club would be booked with 500 people, now your lucky if you have 150. Last new years eve our local restuarant would have 120 people for the night, last couple of years it been less and less to the point that it was 60 for 2007/2008. so social clubs are making less and paying less and restuarant are no longer booking music because that can't afford it or the person booking the party can't afford it either. So if we take a gig we eat the gas costs.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 06-12-2008).]

I never thought much about it until now. This line pretty much focussed my thoughts. I guess I had enough sense and "sold out" myself when I became a DJ/KJ years ago.

As far back as I can remember I was in it for the playing. I fought the DJ craze for the longest time until I realized that was where the money was going to be. So one day I made the transformation and haven't really regretted it. Especially not when bill time comes around every 30 days!

Sure I still play, but I do a bit of everything now. Yet, I really miss the days when I would walk in to an event, set my keyboard up, and dazzle everyone with fancy keyboard work....and...be treated like a member of Royalty.


As for the doom and gloom that this thread seems to be changing to, I have some good news. I played today in a very rich community for an end-of-the-year school event. They reminded me that there is still “money” in the world. They've been my client for a number of years now. Someone remarked: rich folks will pay well if you give them value for their money! And, if you don't, you're out the door.

The parallel is the class separation in today's modern world. Just as the middle class has been squeezed out, so has middle-of-the-road musicians. You now either move forward to where the money is, or fall back and swim with the sharks!

If anyone else has a different solution, I'd love to hear it. After years of entertaining, I’m not sure I have the energy anymore to move into another environment!

Hammer is correct….”What a cool thread this has become!”

Lucky

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
[B]Merciless? Hmmmmm? I dont think so.
Remember I live in this world also, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination....I have made huge financial mistakes in my life also, BUT, thankfully I learned by those mistakes very well & changed those bad financial habits and little by little made my life more comfortable. If you cant take the truth I'm sorry for that, I mean no misfortune to anyone...just making a statement of how I perceive what the heck is going on out there in this crazy world, & hope someone will absorb what I'm saying for the better. .....it's all right there in front of everyones nose LOOK AROUND YOU !
Instead of complaining be a leader & make the required changes to better the problems.
Take care of #1 no one else will.

Have a nice day

[QUOTE]

Donny,

Maybe "merciless" WAS the wrong word. I think "insensitive" is more appropro here.

Have you considered that others who read these messages are maybe not as "enlightened" as you are in financial matters? Or that no one likes to be "lectured" no matter how many mistakes they made?

Have a nice day.

Yes...a very good thread. Thanks Hammer for getting this started.

In fairness to EVERYBODY: We all do what we think needs to be done and it is not with the intention of undercutting or killing off the competition. At least, not in my case. We just want to work and be appreciated.

Think about it. Some people buy top of the line vehicles with all the options. Others buy basic, bare bone cars at the lower priced spectrum. Why? Its all they can afford. Nothing wrong with that. A lexus dealer knows there is no reason to advertise to the Yugo crowd.

We musicians, on the other hand, can decide to cater to the Cadillac crowd..or the Yugo crowd...or BOTH.

For instance: Nursing homes come in a variety of flavors. They range from very modest to lavish. While nursing homes are not my primary clients, my rate to play them varies by what they charge THEIR clients and their ability to pay. Oh yeah...and my desire to play them.

Same holds true for the evening gigs at animal and other social clubs (some 3 hrs, some 4 hrs). The fancy country club communities will often hire their entertainment through an agency for up to 3 or 4 times what I normally charge. If they call me direct, I can double my normal fee without guilt and they feel like they are getting a bargain. If they hire me through an agency, I get a premium fee for that THAT job, but don't have the legal ability to solicit them for future work. It is a contractual thing that comes with all "agency" bookings.

On the other side of the spectrum are the mobile home communities which offer as MANY or MORE engagements, but cannot afford what I consider to be the "going price". If I don't talk to them in their frame of reference, price-wise, I am immediately dismissed as too expensive and NEVER hired.

So...the lesson I have learned is: know your prospects and decide what is the appropriate charge for each potential client..and whether you are willing to play for what they are willing to pay. I wish it was more simple. But, it is not.

It is more "art" than "science". New Years Eve commands a handsome premium every year. But if you decline the first offer because it is too low, you may not get a second offer from any other client. Some times I am reminded of the famous phrase: A bird in the hand is...." well you know the rest.

Eddie

What if the country club finds out you're playing the mobile home community down the street for half price?
How do you justify the difference?

I've seen banquet managers come into a place and tell the clients we can have New York strip steaks or entertainment whats your choice?

Eight hours later and I’ve thought about what I wrote to Donny in my last message. I think I did him a disservice.

My response should have been:

You’re absolutely right, because, as has been mentioned by other members, most of us got to where we are the hard way. I, too, have little patience for those folks who didn’t take the time to do life’s homework and ended up with their present day problems that finally caught up with them.

The difference between Donny and me (and I’m sure others) is I keep it bottled up while Donny has no reservations about “telling it like it is!” There should be more of “telling it like it is” and maybe the world wouldn‘t be in the mess it is today. I definitely think HIS way is better!

My own words “merciless” and “insensitive” still apply but in a different context now. The context being I now recognize his version of “tough love!”

Donny also said: “I hope these people make it through & adjust to what’s happening asap.” In view of that, and having re-read his message a few times now, I would say he meant well and I tip my hat to him for his candidness.

Lucky

Lucky.....I meant no misfortune to anyone in my post on this topic. We all live our lives differently, I was just offering some of my life's experiences & learning's hoping that it will be absorbed by a few & make them think about what I'm saying. Its all observational & as a father of four also I'm always looking out. I'm 56 & I would say our generation & our parent's will be the last ones to see so many changes that happened so fast in the last 30+ years. The "old ways" mixed with the new is our driving force of thought process compared to today's kids & lifestyles. It's easy to get sucked up into bad decisions financially, there is too much greed, too much credit bait for people to to get lured into, easy loans, refinancing, credit cards, reverse mortgages, crazy mortgage schemes, High Car payments forever & simply getting in & living way OVER YOUR HEAD without thinking of the consequences later on until it's TOO LATE when something happens. Next time some guy pulls up next to you at a light with a BIG Cadillac Escalade...instead of being jealous, look over smile & think of HIS SUPER HIGH CAR PAYMENTS while you drive away with your paid in full nice used car because you made the right choice for your lifestyle.
Tough love Lucky? maybe.....but in today's wacky world we really have to circle the wagons and regroup in order to survive comfortable & sleep at night.

Have a great weekend.

Dnj