I was told that Yamaha will not be showing the Tyros3 at the upcoming NAMM show at the end of this month but will be showing it privately in a hospitality suite to some of the dealers that might offer opinions, suggestions, etc. I have been told that it will be in the stores by the end of this year.

------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Great news George will you be in that hospitality room?

That tells me it is not ready to go yet?

You know the info will leak out... Yeah!

Lee

I don't go to the summer NAMM Show. It is so much smaller than the Winter Show every year. Many of the big name manufactures don't even go to the Summer NAMM Show.
But, I have many friends who will share information with me.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566 www.kayesmusicscene.com

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 06-03-2008).]

Kool beans George.....maybe they can sneak a pic

Thats what they did at this years musikmesse

Well at least we know T3 will be 61 keys

And they will be black and white...

With fast light action

I received an email questioniere from Yamaha a couple of days ago. I think it was about 30 questions, maybe more.
I spent quite a bit of time on it to be sure I really got the answers right as they related to me and my experience.
I submitted it to them. A few hours later they emailed me again, stating they had sent me the wrong questions and asked if I would do it over.
I politely declined.
I used to go to local seminars where they paid me 200.00 and a meal for a round table discussion in front of two way mirrors that hid their execs.
Now they want me to do it for free and can't even get it right.
Bebop

I got the same survey and same 2nd e-mail requesting doing the survey over. I did, they were pretty much the same questions. Looks like the first survey was designed for UK customers since all monetary vaules were in Pounds, the second survey quoted US Dollars. As far as I can tell that was the only difference. BTW there was no question as to my preference for 61 or 76 keys

Hey Bebop ,

I received the same survey , the reason they sent you another was the first one was for UK buyers/sellers.

The second one was the corrected version for US.

Take care !!

Gary 

And that, my friends, is market research! It is the art of only asking the questions that you WANT the answers to, and asking the questions in a way that you get the answers you want!

Then, when users complain about not getting something, you say 'But we did a market survey!'

Amen

Roland should have queried this as well...consider the sad tale of G70 and E-60...dismal sales.

Perhaps all companies could/should be more detailed in their surveys and possibly prevent disasters like this from ever happening.

Ian

Ian.....maybe all other arranger companies will no longer be around & take the sad path of Technics........leaving only Yamaha to carry on

This thing on 61 vs 76 is SIMPLE.
It's a no brainer to offer both.

The engineering and mfg cost is trivial.
A 61 vs 76 MIDI keyboard is less than $200 difference. That include cabinet and keys!
Of course it helps when your cabinet straight forward, like S900.

Any Mfg that does not offer both is MISSING THE BOAT. Some of us want 61, others 76.

Asside from political reasons 61 and 76 should be available in every arranger!

End of story.

I talked to a Roland factory Rep. on Saturday, he said some of the reason the G-70 did not sell as well as expected was due to pricing differences/availability from different KINDS of Dealers(Piano stores vs others). He said that issue is fixed but he did not expect the sales to catch up. The G-70 is super, IMHO I don't think lack of sales was due to 76 keys vs 61.

Lee



[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 06-05-2008).]

Offcourse not Lee...

Yamaha just sells better because they actually have a decent good marketing strategy for their products...

A dealer can make more money on a Yamaha then on a Roland or Korg, thats why so many dealers overhere in europe are actually pushing yamaha's

Its got nothing to do with 76 keys...


And ian... I told you allready that the E60 sells better in europe then the E50. Where euope is the main market for the arranger products and canada just a very small niche market. So please stop using this as an excample in these 76 key discussions..


Basically every topics seems to end up intoo this discussion......even if you don´t want-need a 76 keys arranger, whats wrong with admitting that there are a lot people all over the place that prefer 76 keys above 61 keys.

I'm sorry bud, I don't live in Europe, so I can only comment on my market, which didn't embrace the E-60 or the G70 very well...I guess they were so successful in your area that's why they stopped making them?

In regards to your other question...
"whats wrong with admitting that there are a lot people all over the place that prefer 76 keys above 61 keys"...well the answer is simple...nothing wrong with admitting something, but wouldn't it have much more credibility if it were true?

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-05-2008).]

Oh my gosh... I just figured it out!

A Yamaha Motif XS8 goes for $3,199....A Tyros 2 goes for $3,495.
Actually the difference with Korg is even more!

OK, let's see here... Ah a Motif XS8 uses a much more expensive 88 note graded hammer ation...and is all metal..but it costs $300 less than a Tyros 2 with a much less expensive to build 61 note synth action (great action though!)and is all plastic.

It'a all about profit!
Manufacturing costs.
The profit margin must be huge on the arrangers. They all cost a lot more than the PRO synths.

They can get us arrangers guys to spend $3,495 for an arranger but the PRO's on Motifs only $3,199.


So all these big bands with money to spend pay less than us home keyboard folks!

Interesting...but we do it!
I guess as long as we are forking it out, they will gladly take it.
Lee

A fool and his money are soon partying!

Ian,
So very true..
You only go around once, enjoy it!

I paid a lot more ($12k) for a Yamaha HS8 organ a few years ago and it didn't even come close to the sounds of the Tyros 2!

It was however one of the best at the time!

Lee

I try to avoid the "Fun Police" whenever possible.

I always think of the saying, "How we spend our days is how we spend our lives".

Now, back to the S900!

I'm hooked!
Ian

So the T3 will not be shown "publicly" but only "privately" at NAMM.. hmmm

Something smells a little fishy.. Delayed but not doomed I hope.

Yammie is a little behind schedule perhaps? End of the year is okay with me though. Since I won't be buying one anyway. OTOH, if Yamaha actually listens to those private party purveyers who shout their demands for a 76 keys T3 and if Yamaha actually yields to their suggestions and or demands, and indeed offers a 76 key Tyros3, then I will gladly be willing to relinquish $3,500 + for the new T3 when it is available at the end of November 2008.

But if they continue to follow the same path to 61 key nirvana?? (more like 61 key HELL eh? ) that I suspect that there will be a multitude of other arranger players who think Yamaha is in it JUST for the money and will NOT be suckered into these 61 key minor superficial upgrade thingamabobbies called a Tyros3. When Yamaha does not listen to a vast majority of the arranger keyboard user base, when people are telling them they want 76 keys versions of their totl arrangers and Yamaha constantly shrugs them off and doesn't care at all to comply to their requests, can you therefore at all blame them for becoming disgruntled with them as a company and avoiding their arranger keyboard products like the plague?

And then Yamaha wonders why they are starting to see sales slip and lose marketshare to the competition? DUH!! I wonder what it could be?

Best,
Mike

All, and I repeat, ALL keyboard manufacturers are in it for the money...what other motivation would they have?

In fact...what other motivation would any manufacturer have?

Tyros3 will carry on the legacy of the Tyros and Tyros2 and continue to be enjoyed by home players and pro musicians alike.

The legend continues...[drum roll please!]

Ian

As I have mentioned before, Tyros 3 will outsell all other arrangers (Just like Tyros 2) and further increase its market share, not reduce it, this is for the simple reason that it builds instruments for the silent majority, not the vocal minority
There are also indications that Roland are also dropping 76 note arrangers, (Although I will reserve judgment on that until an official announcement is made) which if true means Roland is also supposedly not listening.
Regards

Bill

Nice to see such fervent cheerleading from someone who doesn't have the slightest intention of using one, Ian

'The silent majority'. Is that like the 'Moral Majority'?

Who were neither...

No Diki...use it I will, and I'll thoroughly enjoy having one here for a while...I just won't buy one...can't afford it.

Ian

Oh my gosh... I just figured it out!

A Yamaha Motif XS8 goes for $3,199....A Tyros 2 goes for $3,495.
Actually the difference with Korg is even more!

OK, let's see here... Ah a Motif XS8 uses a much more expensive 88 note graded hammer ation...and is all metal..but it costs $300 less than a Tyros 2 with a much less expensive to build 61 note synth action (great action though!)and is all plastic.

It'a all about profit!
Manufacturing costs.
The profit margin must be huge on the arrangers. They all cost a lot more than the PRO synths.

They can get us arrangers guys to spend $3,495 for an arranger but the PRO's on Motifs only $3,199.


So all these big bands with money to spend pay less than us home keyboard folks!

Interesting...but we do it!
I guess as long as we are forking it out, they will gladly take it.
Lee

The Motif XS does not have anywhere near the the quality , detail or number number of styles within it. The styles cost money to make the , musicians and programmers spend many thousands of hours to produce these balanced detailed intuitive and realistic styles you cannot compare the two.

For example the Mediastation is one of the most sophisticated keybaords available with arranger features but the arranger element i think universally is regarded as below the standard of all the other major arranger providers. You would think that with all the great sounds potentially available through the mediastation it would fix its arranger function as a priority right ? The problem is however that it costs many thousands of pounds to hire professional musicians who have the ability to play every genre of music (over 300 styles each style with up to 4 variations at least ) and then very proficient programmers and sound technicians to record and edit and balance the parts as styles .

I cant speak for Mediatstation but i would guess that cost is a major prohibitor in it truly fulfilling its promise to be a top flight arranger.

I've probably said too much. Carry on !

I'm not against those who like 61 key keyboards. To each his own. What I can't understand is why Yamaha, who knows that many arranger keyboard players would prefer a "choice" of either a 76 key version or the 61 key version, or quite possibly even an 88 key totl arranger if the weight wasn't a big factor; why they choose to ignore that sector of the market. On this forum alone we had half of our members saying they would prefer 76 keys and in some instances wouldn't mind an 88 key totl arranger if it wasn't too heavy like I said. I agree that the manufacturers are in it to make a profit but when they leave a good segment of their customer base in the lurch and having to search for another brand from another company it speaks of condescension on Yamaha's part toward their customers (the consumer) or possible new customers also waiting in the wing - or the better word 'lurch'. I think it has hurt Yamaha too. For one it is hurting their image in the eyes of the consumer. Maybe not so much in the short term but in the longer term when people simply bypass Yamaha altogether when they see Yamaha's stubbornness to "get with the times" and that they don't really care for other segments of the market except the one where their greed is fed the most i.e. in the 61 key market. When Yamaha's method of operation is based solely on their survival, instead of the needs of market and what the consumer is asking for, then it really strikes of arrogance, or even worse, narcissistic; especially in regard to their complete lack of empathy toward that 'other' segment of the market. At least that's how I view it. If they truly cared for the need of, we as the consumer, they would bend over backwards to fill that need. Instead, they play it ultra safe, so they can count their money at the end of the day and all the way to the bank - consumer be damned. Except the ones that continue buy their 61 key mid and totl keyboards of course though. As long as there are people who keep feeding Yamaha's all consuming hunger for "PROFIT" ABOVE ALL MENTALITY, they will keep obliging them and pumping out those 61 keyers. Even if there are a multitude of others on the sideline left to wait in the lurch with no other recourse but to find some other company who WILL meet their needs, even though they may have been loyal and dedicated yamaha customers for years on end. Go figure Yamaha. Or better yet, go count your money...

Best,
Mike

Mike,
It's a no brainer to offer a 61 and 76... absolutely we should have a choice...

There is only one answer that really makes any since why Yammi does not do it. Since it is a piece of cake to do. All the logical reasoning doesn't apply.

POLITICS amoung divisions of the company...Maybe some one very high up has drawn a line in the sand. Home keyboards 61 keys only. Be nice if we knew if it was true?? Maybe that's not it, but to me it makes the most sense.

If you want 76, you just have to buy from someone else. Or add a 76 (or 88)MIDI keyboard under the Yammi. Not expensive and works well. I use the CME UF70.

Lee

I'm guessing for Yamaha not to make 76 key arranger since 9000pro, it most likely based on sales volume and marketing research. What may sell well in the US and sales in Europe may have not been strong. I sure there sale are based on Europe since the sales are much stronger then the US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QviBOeRK0sU&feature=related

How many SZ members want a 76 note Yamaha, (The Vocal Minority) and how many millions of sales have been made with 61 notes (The Silent Majority) and you can see that the arguments for 76 notes are nonsensical in sales terms.
As to the cost of a 76, do a search in previous posts, and you will find that contrary to what the layman thinks, it would NOT be cheap to produce.
Regards

Bill

If splinters of the arranger keyboard market the market want to buy a 76 key arranger then they have Korg and Roland and whoever else to go to. Yamaha DONT HAVE TO cater to All the market. Just the PORTION OF THE MARKET that IS THE MOST PROFITABLE and buys their instruments ,year after year, through brand loyalty, and probably not wanting to learn a whole new operating system. Yamaha's market consistently upgrade every time the next best yamaha comes along, they dont swap brands based upon technology, musicality or functionality. They stick with what they know and for the most part yamaha's market ARE NOT PRO MUSICIANS. Has the penny dropped yet......

I will spell it out for you H.O.M.E P.L.A.Y.E.R.S

This market is not screaming for 76 keys. And yamaha will not mess with a formula that is so successful. Only a someone commercially naieve would mess with market sensitive features. Thats SIZE AND WEIGHT. Can you make a 756 keyboard the same size and weight as a 61 ? If not then you are messing with features that the market is sensitive to. Yamaha know their market.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 06-07-2008).]

Spalding exactly well said.....Home arranger KB players is the key for Yamaha....The lack of professional arranger players versus all other pro keyboard players using synths, etc, certainly drives their research & decisions on product releases. If this was 30 years ago "pre computer age" where musicians really played instruments on a majority basis versus DJ's, KJ's, & every other way of making music like today it would be a different story....there is simply not enough "working pros" use arrangers which = less & less 76 key models available. Or to make it profitable for Yamaha to manufacture for the small market that wants them....so they leave that niche up to other companies to deal with.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-07-2008).]

True enough, Spalding but as I said on another thread, Tyros and PSR are also used "as is" by Nashville Music Row, and by other serious professionals like Melissa Manchester, Martina McBride, David Paich (Toto), David Bryant(Bon Jovi) and Donny Pesce, just to name a few.

Pros definitely know a good thing when they see it, and are adroit enough to use it to their advantage.

Ian

True Ian....with just a few little changes here & there to the design, featrures, navigational, & OS, the S-series could be the perfect Arranger line in the future for so many applications.

But you see, this is all ANY of us are asking for

aboslutely Ian just as some pro musicians are still using the PSR9000 but it is unlikely that Yamaha are going to go back to making them just for a few people who love it. They are market led like any other successful manuactures. The only difference for yamaha is that they 'selected' that area of the market that they have whatever percieved advantage to exploit the mostfor arrangers. But things change the future could be very different.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 06-08-2008).]

With a customer survey that doesn't even ASK whether you want 76 or not, I wouldn't count on it being ANY different...

i dont count on things changing in that respect but there are other products i could go to if the number of keys were that important to me.it just isnt. Built in speaker is more important to me than the extra keys.

According to my Roland rep buddy, their surveys don't ask about the number of keys either.

Don't know about Korg...but shouldn't be hard to find out...someone knows...I'll do some checking in the meantime.

Ian

Roland don't need to ASK about 76-ers, because they already have their sales figures to give them a clue. But a company that DOESN'T make a 76 in their arranger line is only going to get information by asking.

Which, of course, they won't (they've long made up their minds, whether the customers want them or not ).

This is kind of like me playing a REALLY bad version of "in the Mood' ONE time, and nobody claps, so from that point onwards I go 'Nobody likes bigband music, so I won't play any. These people that keep coming up and asking me for it MUST be some 'niche crowd', because I already tried it and EVERYBODY hated it. I will NEVER play bigband music again. OK, everybody, would you like to hear country, reggae or rock?!'

Possibly, Diki...but more realistically, Yamaha's sales figures probably established the idea of the 61 note being the optimum arranger configuration for TOTL...after they saw how dismal Roland was doing...and there was no need to enter that particular niche market at this time...maybe they will down the road if it looks promising, but it doesn't seem to look good so far.

Actually, Yamaha makes many arrangers with more than 61 keys...just not TOTL...the DGX/YPG are excellent products...and the bane of Roland's E-60, from what I have heard.

I haven't heard you play "In the Mood" so I can't comment...if it's like the rest of your stuff...it's probably pretty good.

Ian

Well, big difference is the YPG's sound like toys compared to the E60's professionall sound..

But then to many people are blinded by the sign "Yamaha". The YPG 635 is rated just under the S500 when you look at the sounds. (thats where yamaha places them)

While E50/E60 are direct contenders of the S900.

I'd say they were more likely "assured" by the Yamaha logo.

Smart people recognize value for their money...the DGX/YPG are incredible instruments.

Ian

Deny it all you want but I would have to say Yamaha arrangers rule the roost in so many categories. Everyone else is playing catch up....once the new T3 & S-Series units come out it will catapult them into another stratosphere.

Sure, what ever you think.....
But the new S series won't be released before 2010.